CNCC - BCA

[spikey]

This is not something which has arisen for me just yet, but it doesn't seem very clear from the CNCC website (operative word in the acronym being "clubs") whether individual members of the BCA can apply for CNCC permits. Anyone know?

I am aware that some may say 'join a club', but I have been there and bought the t-shirt over the last 20 years, and became disillusioned with the beaurocracy / in-fighting etc. that always seems to arise whenever a committee becomes involved.

 

[graham]

Join a decent club? 

 

[paul]

I am aware that some may say 'join a club', but I have been there and bought the t-shirt over the last 20 years, and became disillusioned with the beaurocracy / in-fighting etc. that always seems to arise whenever a committee becomes involved.

The problem that caving clubs are not all the same. Just because you had a bad experience with on (or others) doesn't mean thay are all like that.

Many years ago I was going to join a certain London-based club for a trip to the Dales where I hadn't yet been, being still at school (in the 6th Form) and living in London at the time. They insisted I needed a wetsuit, which I didn't have, so I trundled off to Aquaquipment in St. Albans and unfortunately they hadn't any ready-made wetsuits in my size in stock. So I bought a "kit" wich was a large rectangle of 5mm neoprene with a red nylon lining which had all the sections marked out using templates.

I spent the whole Thursday (we had the day off from school for some reason) in a scholl-mate's kitchen (who was already a member of this club) cutting out all the sections of the wesuit and gluing them togeteher, gluing tape on all the seams and also sewing up the inside nylon liner on all the joins.

The following day we set off after school to meet at a certain pub to meet the other cavers. They seemed glad to see me cluctching me new wetsuit and other gear. They asked if "by the way - you ARE over 21, aren't you?". I replied I wasn't (I was 19) - to this the replied, "Well you aren't old enough for the insurance to drive the van - so f**k off!".

Charming.

So, as you can believe this put me right of caving clubs altogether.

My school-mate and I, along with a few others, continued caving but as we could only afford 3 25 foot ladders and a bit of rope plus only having small motorbikes or mopeds for transport (plus the occasional borrowing of one of our father's ols Ford Anglia), caving trips from London were pretty restricted to a few caves in Mendip, South Wales and the Peak Distict.

Eventually these caving mates dropped out of caving for one reason or another until there were two of us. We decided to giv another club a try and settled on Sta Albans Caving Club as St. Albans was within reasonable distance to our homes in North London.

Things improved dramatically: access to loads of gear, trip all over the UK, trips to Belgium and France! We could never have done this by ourselves.

Eventually this particular club dwindled and died out - I moved to the Peak and joined  another club, this time a large well-established club with a hut. Yes, there is a Committee but there are only occasional meetings and these are mainly to discuss forthcoming trips, occasional work on the hut, etc.

The only beaurocracy is when joining: you fill in your name and address on a form, get two current members to sign, pay your subs/insurance, there's a vote at athe Annual GM or Half-Yealy GM - that's it. Meanwhile you are a Prospective Memeber and entitled to all benefits of membership (Insurance, permits from CNCC, reduced rates saying at the hut and some other club's huts, use of oodles of rope and other gear, etc,) except for voting at a Meeting (which you needn't attand anyway...)  If you want to go caving, you go caving. If you want to just cave and have nothing to do with monthly pub meets or events at the hut (BBQ, Xmas Dinner, Bonfire Night) or meetings then that's fine - no problem. Just pay your subs/insurance on time each year.

We have a fortnightly Meets List to the Dales, the Peaks, South Wales - even Mendip!

Meanwhile I have been caving still all over the UK, Ireland, France, Slovenia, Thailand and Spain - again highly unlikely if I hadn't joined.

Try a club or two more - see if you change your mind! They definitely are not all the same, large or small.

 

[whitelackington]

This is not something which has arisen for me just yet, but it doesn't seem very clear from the CNCC website (operative word in the acronym being "clubs") whether individual members of the BCA can apply for CNCC permits. Anyone know?

I am aware that some may say 'join a club', but I have been there and bought the t-shirt over the last 20 years, and became disillusioned with the bureaucracy / in-fighting etc. that always seems to arise whenever a committee becomes involved.

I find it hard to believe that The C.N.C.C. website would be unclear
after all, surely the reason for them existing is to clearly help cavers gain entry to caves
or am I being naive?

 

[darkplaces]

Fact! you don't need to join a caving club to go caving. It angers me yes ANGERS me when 'some' people's parrot like response to anything is 'join a club'.... Join a club for this join a club for that, you end up joining half a dozen clubs because of the 'its my cave/dig mentality'.

I know loads of non-caving-club people who do just as much conservation work underground as many standard issue club cavers, that's a fact. Its always the old (sorry not so old) regulars  who do the conservation NOT clubs in my view.

Any organisation that limits access to club members only will get a rude awaking when the non-club people want access, we will simply bypass them as they become irrelevant.

 

[Bob Mehew]

simple answer is yes only clubs who are members of BCA.  see http://cncc.org.uk/cncc_policies.html at end of bit on Obtaining Permission for more details.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The clue is in the name. CNCC is a council of caving clubs. It is there to protect the interests of clubs. Thats why it's called a council of caving clubs, not a council of individual cavers. Nobody says you have to join a club but if you want the benefits club membership offers, then go for it. Like trade unions. They primarily fight for the interests of their members. If you are not a member then don't expect to reap the benefits. I wonder if DP advocates the abolition of political parties, trades unions, youth groups, on the grounds that they discriminate against the interests of the individual?

 

[whitelackington]

But surely to god,
an organization like The C.N.C.C. should aim to help all cavers?

 

[Peter Burgess]

I'm sure it has a constitution which will tell you what its primary aims are.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Fact! you don't need to join a caving club to go caving. It angers me yes ANGERS me when 'some' people's parrot like response to anything is 'join a club'.... Join a club for this join a club for that, you end up joining half a dozen clubs because of the 'its my cave/dig mentality'.

I know loads of non-caving-club people who do just as much conservation work underground as many standard issue club cavers, that's a fact. Its always the old (sorry not so old) regulars  who do the conservation NOT clubs in my view.

Any organisation that limits access to club members only will get a rude awaking when the non-club people want access, we will simply bypass them as they become irrelevant.

I suspect the adage of join a club is rolled out purely to upset people and get them going.  It seems to have been successful. 

I don't disagree with your point about some great cavers being outside the club system working for conservation etc, but there are necessarily some limitations for those who wish to remain outside of clubs.  And I would add that there are also many great cavers within clubs doing similar, also in some cases with great help from their clubs.

Can I point out that like it or not, the access agreements with land owners stipulate clubs, so to by pass them would be piracy.  The agreements to permit only clubs access was what the land owners wanted, so that is what we are stuck with.  Piracy may well lead to loss of access to the disadvantage of all. 

And if you wish to cite the CROW Act, please tell me how caving fits in with " for the purposes of open-air recreation".  As access for caving is not specifically mentioned in Schedule 2 of the Act, it is a legal quagmire as to whether CROW does apply to obtaining access to a cave.  In addition, once you enter the cave, CROW definitely does not apply and you need permission from the owner(s) of the cave (which can be different from the owner of the land).  Legally, access to the surface is a separate matter from access to the cave.  This is a potential legal quagmire which is better not walked into.  So lets comply with the land owner's wishes and keep caves open for at least some cavers.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Direct from the CNCC website:

Aims & Objects

• To ensure and maintain access to caves and potholes by negotiation and or agreements with farmers, landowners or authorities.
• To secure and maintain good relations, and act as general co-ordinating body between cavers and farmers, landowners, gamekeepers, local residents and other interested parties.
• To encourage and educate cavers to respect and conserve caves and the countryside.
• To represent the general interests of member clubs and northern cavers.
• To act as general disciplinary body and arbitrator in the event of any act considered detrimental to the Council as a whole.
  

But surely to god,
an organization like The C.N.C.C. should aim to help all cavers?

So Whitelackington is right. It does (well, at least northern ones)

 

[graham]

To encourage and educate cavers to respect and conserve caves and the countryside.

Including respecting the views of those landowners who wish to deal with representative bodies and not with every Tom Dick or Darkplaces who demands access to their property.

 

[Cave_Troll]

by restricting permits to members of constituant clubs, there is some accountabilty and come back.
If as an individual i got a permit for a cave, and then drove my landrover there through the farmers field, had a large bonfire and trashed a load of formations there would be little come back.
as a member of an affiliated club, they at least have a better idea of who i am and also can take action against my club

 

[anfieldman]

Fact! you don't need to join a caving club to go caving. It angers me yes ANGERS me when 'some' people's parrot like response to anything is 'join a club'.... Join a club for this join a club for that, you end up joining half a dozen clubs because of the 'its my cave/dig mentality'.

Quite agree DP. Just stick to open access caves and not the ones where the landowners only want approved club members to go. You will ruin it for the rest.

 

[Bob Mehew]

But surely to god,
an organization like The C.N.C.C. should aim to help all cavers?

So Whitelackington is right. It does (well, at least northern ones)

If I recall correctly, CNCC share this limitation of membership with CCC, CSCC & DCUC.  Only DCA permits individual members (and gives them a vote as well!). 

Individual verses club representation was a major discussion point in setting up BCA but pushing that concept down onto Regional Caving Councils was a step too far to contemplate!

 

[kay]

by restricting permits to members of constituant clubs, there is some accountabilty and come back.
If as an individual i got a permit for a cave, and then drove my landrover there through the farmers field, had a large bonfire and trashed a load of formations there would be little come back.
as a member of an affiliated club, they at least have a better idea of who i am and also can take action against my club

This makes sense.
I was thinking "why can't I as a DIM of BCA get access - couldn't BCA be regarded as a club?" But the difference is that the only requirement for joining BCA is paying the subs, whereas most clubs want to meet you and cave with you before they'll accept you as a member.

The downside is that you have to persuade enough members of the club that they'd really like to see the cave in question to get it put on the club's meets list.

 

[paul]

Fact! you don't need to join a caving club to go caving. It angers me yes ANGERS me when 'some' people's parrot like response to anything is 'join a club'.... Join a club for this join a club for that, you end up joining half a dozen clubs because of the 'its my cave/dig mentality'.

Who says you have to join a club to go caving? I gave an example where I was happily going caving as a group of individuals but found the benefits of club membership very attractive and have therefore gone cave a lot more frequently and in areas of the world I wouldn't have if I hadn't joined a club. You do not have to join a club to go caving (unless any caves you wish to visit have an access agreement stipulating this as a requirement and there are not many of these, at least around the Peak). I am member of only one club - there's no need to join many.

I know loads of non-caving-club people who do just as much conservation work underground as many standard issue club cavers, that's a fact. Its always the old (sorry not so old) regulars  who do the conservation NOT clubs in my view.

I agree - there are good cavers who do good conservation work who are members of clubs and also those who aren't club members just as there are bad cavers who cause damage and litter: both club members and not. Nobody says you have to be a club member as a prerequisite of doing this.

Any organisation that limits access to club members only will get a rude awaking when the non-club people want access, we will simply bypass them as they become irrelevant.

As mentioned above: contravene access agreements and you will find access denied by the landowner or tenant. All the posturing in the world about doing what you want and sod everybody else will only lead to access withdrawn for all cavers.  I'd like to see you "simply bypass" a cave entrance closed by the landowner/tenant by "permanent" means as opposed to a gate which can be removed.

I have no idea why you are so anti-club (especially as you have joined several), you don't seem to mind staying at club huts nor caving in caves which are only accessible because of the hard work of both club members and individual cavers who dug it open or maintain good relationships with local landowners to continue with access available to all. Sounds like a touch of hypocrisy to me.

 

[Robert Scott]

But surely to god,
an organization like The C.N.C.C. should aim to help all cavers?

Just because Mick Norton espouses a point of view does not, a priori, validate that point of view.

 

[nickwilliams]

I have no idea why you are so anti-club (especially as you have joined several), you don't seem to mind staying at club huts nor caving in caves which are only accessible because of the hard work of both club members and individual cavers who dug it open or maintain good relationships with local landowners to continue with access available to all. Sounds like a touch of hypocrisy to me.

I'm not going to disagree with any of what you have said, Paul, and I don't agree with everything which Darkplaces has said, but to be fair to him/her I don't think (s)he was being particularly anti-club - I read it that (s)he was simply pointing out that if you want to go caving, joining a club is not the only option - it's perfectly possible to just get together and go off with a few of your mates and have a go if you want to. Lamps and other kit can all be hired, guide books can be bought and let's face it there are plenty of precendents for people giving it a go without the proper kit. Some of them come to grief and show up in the rescue statistics - I suspect a lot more we never hear about have a fine time.

I'm not about to recommend this approach, but neither am I going to criticise it.

One of the things which being closely involved with the BCA membership scheme has brought home to me is just how many small clubs there are - clubs with only around a half-dozen members. Such clubs make up around a third of the total membership of BCA. They are not really 'clubs' in the same way as the Wessex or the Orpheus are - they are just a bunch of like minded mates who want to have a go. The ones I know about are group members of BCA, but there must be others who are not. From my perspective it would be nice if they all joined and made a contribution to the costs of our national structure and I don't happen to agree with the point of view which states that we would be better off without BCA. However, I accept that in some cases is it a genuinely held view and people are entitled to hold it. (Equally, in a lot of cases it's just macho posturing, but that's a different topic).

Certainly, I agree with trying to minimise the amount of bureaucracy in caving (although long experience tells me that it's not always as easy to achieve as it might at first appear) and the day that BCA or any other 'official' organisation trys to limit the activities of non-club cavers is the day I give up having anything to do with it (BCA that is!). We have far more to lose than we might ever have to gain from such an approach.

Big clubs with all the paraphenalia of huts and the armchair cavers which go with them can often be pretty intimidating places for novice cavers. If people feel more comfortable in the company of a few of their own mates then so long as they are not doing anything to harm the quiet enjoyment of others then I think they should be left to get on with it. As a means of enabling people to participate it's just as valid as encouraging them to join an existing club. If they decide they want to stick with it, experience shows that they will end up 'joining the fold' sooner or later.

Nick.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Fact! you don't need to join a caving club to go caving. It angers me yes ANGERS me when 'some' people's parrot like response to anything is 'join a club'.... Join a club for this join a club for that, you end up joining half a dozen clubs because of the 'its my cave/dig mentality'.

A comment on the 'it's my cave/my dig mentality'

When you are local to a cave or mine that you know very well, and that you do your best to look after, it is inevitable that you develop an 'it's my cave' mentality, and this is why there are so many of us who as individuals do our best to look after the sites in question. If those individuals cave together as a club, then the club will naturally take these concerns on board. It makes any negotiations over conservation etc with landowners a lot easier too. Those same individuals will naturally want to do what they can to protect the sites they love, perhaps by repairing damage to gates.

When the same individuals travel to another area and find access to sites restricted for a similar reason, they ought to remember that access is controlled for the very same reason that they themselves have used to look after 'their' local sites.

Nowadays, 'free access for all' is not a sensible option for many places. Look at the recent awful graffiti in Box that I saw on another forum recently. Thank goodness there are local people who cleaned it up for others to enjoy again. These vandals are the 'non club people' who are most definitely not welcome to have free access. The people who cleaned up the mess may or may not have been 'non club people' - that is irrelevant.

Making the judgement on whether someone, club or not club, should have access to a site is a difficult decision to make. At least if a site is gated and controlled, then when damage does occur you can have some idea who might have been responsible.