CNCC - BCA

[paul]

Am I naïvely (notice I have got 2 dots over my i in that word - clever eh!) innocent in believing that the majority of people who recommend that a person might want to join a caving club are only doing so so that

a) that person may meet others to go caving with.
b) the club can provide keys/access/leaders or at least makes it easier for you know who to approach.
c) provides kit for you to borrow so that you do not have to buy it yourself.

And nothing to do with trying to indoctrinate people into believing that they 'have to' join a club in order to go caving.

Yes. At least that is the case with me. The original poster implied he had tried a club (or clubs) and didn't fancy the idea of joining after his experience. I was suggesting that as I had a similar experience with the first club I encountered, I found others both small and large to be more to my liking and perhaps he may wan to have another go.

Nobody has to join a club if they do not wish to.

Wormster - you seem to be getting the benefits of clubs via others who are club members. Is this something to boast about? I would be grateful and keep quiet if I was you.   

I see nothing wrong with that - that's between Wormster and the club(s) he mixes with. My club often has trips with both members of the club, members of other clubs and cavers who are not members of any club. That's fine with me.

What I don't like are those who complain and bad-mouth about clubs, but don't mind taking advantage of staying in their huts and using their facilities or caving in caves which are a) only open because a club (or clubs) dug the way in and b) a club ensures the cave is accessible to all cavers by  carrying out the landowners wishes.

 

[graham]

I'll quite happily live with the way it is at the moment, this way I feel as if i've got the best of both worlds.

(And now know enuff cavers in differnt clubs around the country to be able to gat a trip *ALMOST* anywhere :tease

Am I naïvely (notice I have got 2 dots over my i in that word - clever eh!) innocent in believing that the majority of people who recommend that a person might want to join a caving club are only doing so so that

a) that person may meet others to go caving with.
b) the club can provide keys/access/leaders or at least makes it easier for you know who to approach.
c) provides kit for you to borrow so that you do not have to buy it yourself.

And nothing to do with trying to indoctrinate people into believing that they 'have to' join a club in order to go caving.

In an ideal world all caves would be open to anyone who wanted to go down them, and all people who did so would leave no trace that they had ever been there and make no noise whilst there late at night. There would also never be any issues about the possibility of blaming anyone for something, and therefore no need for insurance. Any committees would only exist to arrange repairs to entrances etc and social/caving events.

Wouldn't that be nice. Unfortunately it is not an ideal world.

I believe that the present system of clubs, regional councils and insurance keeps cave access as it is. I am quite happy to comply with this system.

Wormster - you seem to be getting the benefits of clubs via others who are club members. Is this something to boast about? I would be grateful and keep quiet if I was you.   

And by the way - give up smoking. Disgusting habit!!

Well said young lady.  

 

[graham]

Oh no. I used the word 'issues' How could I.   

:hug:

 

[Bob Mehew]

However, I do feel that accountability is not a particularly justified reason to restrict permits to clubs - generally, everyone is traceable and I would have thought even more so if an individual rather than a club is booking the permit - presumably you have to give a name and address on application? Maybe the landowners feel that CNCC (or other permit-issuing bodies) may have some sort of authority over the constituent clubs?

More likely I would think, given today's litigious mentality, would be the insurance issue. However, I wouldn't have thought there is a vast difference between the BCA's individual and club cover ( Mind you, I haven't gone through the fine print on the policies)

You must remember most of the infrastructure like CNCC was set up in the 60's when "clubs did rule the caves".  Recall that early i.e. pre 1950's exploration was done with rope ladder and hemp rope (and yes I know this is a gross generailsation), whilst pre 1990's exploration was done with ladders and line whilst now its mostly SRT.  Reduction in gear means less people needed to carry it.  Also reduction in cost means more people can afford to individually own the gear.  So it is no wonder more and more cavers are remaining outside of clubs.  One of the reasons for having individual membership of BCA was to provide non club individuals with a place within caving where they could contribute back to caving in a more explicit way.  It seems to me on occasions that some clubs and their members still think that they are back in the 50's.

Re insurance, there is NO difference, because the only way BCA's policy can apply to a club is by ensuring all members of that club are individually insured.  It comes from good legal reasons, amongst one being http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/moneybox/6392969.stm

 

[spikey]

Thanks for the response Bob.

Given this explanation, and the fact that all cavers are infact insured equally, there would seem to me to be even fewer reasons why the CNCC should not at least consider issuing permits to individuals.

However, rules is rules, and I would not even contemplate pirating anything without a permit. But, what is there to stop me setting up my own caving club with a member, committee, quorum etc. of 1 person (maybe SPikeys UNderground Club, or S.P.U.N.C. for short  :blink, insuring myself as a club, and applying for permits this way??


P.S. all this is hypothetical - I haven't been underground in over 2 years, and am simply considering my options should I start going again.

 

[damian]

Given this explanation, and the fact that all cavers are infact insured equally, there would seem to me to be even fewer reasons why the CNCC should not at least consider issuing permits to individuals.

I have some sympathy with this, Spikey. I guess the problem is the long-standing access agreements which, as Bob has said, date from an era when clubs ruled out of necessity.

But, what is there to stop me setting up my own caving club with a member, committee, quorum etc. of 1 person (maybe SPikeys UNderground Club, or S.P.U.N.C. for short  :blink, insuring myself as a club, and applying for permits this way??

According to the BCA website a club would norrmally consist of at least 4 members.

 

[kay]

Do they all have to be caving members, or could a club consist of, say, one fully insured caving member and three 'social' members who are not insured for underground but are entitled to attend pub meets?

 

[cap n chris]

You could probably affiliate with another club, i.e. you could be the caving member of the X-and-Y Caving & Needlework Society; that way you'll easily be able to make up the numbers while retaining control over your preferred caving exploits. You might also be lucky enough to get someone in the club who can patch up your gear from time to time.

 

[graham]

Why do people have to over refine so much. If the likes of DP doesn't want to join a club, that's fine; but if the likes of CNCC don't want to accommodate their hard-won access systems to people like him then that's their prerogative as well.

Caving, as we all know, is run by volunteers. If they do it one way and you don't like it, then volunteer yourself. If you can't/don't want to then tough.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I see from DP's tag line under his avatar that he is a member of both ACG and WCC. Who forced him to join these clubs? They should be ashamed of themselves. The coersion employed must have been quite severe, given the poor chap's aversion to clubs, so frequently expressed here.

 

[wormster]

Wormster - you seem to be getting the benefits of clubs via others who are club members. Is this something to boast about? I would be grateful and keep quiet if I was you. 

Not boasting Anne, still undecided about which club to join.............the BEC, Wessex, ACG etc...............

I'll get round to it one day.

 

[Elaine]

Ok wormster, fair enough. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

[Cookie]

To go back to the original question, my understanding is that since the formation of the BCA and the "one stop shop", as long as you are a member of one Regional Council, you can apply for access via another RC.

Is that correct?

Close but not quite - the devil is in the detail.

Access is still controlled by the Access Controlling Body, in this discussion the Regional Councils. The One-Stop-Shop did not change that. What did change was that all the Regional Councils agreed to accept any BCA member club was bona-fide and that they could apply for permits/keys.

So it is true to say that a club that is a member of BCA can apply to all Regional Councils for permits/keys.

(NB The criteria is membership of BCA not membership of a Regional Council, although mostly, but not always, membership of a Regional Council implies membership of BCA.)

There is no such agreement for individual members of BCA.

That is about it for general rules, after that it varies from Regional Council to Regional Council.

For good historical reasons CNCC will only issues permits to BCA member clubs. They do not issue permits to individuals.

CSCC will issue keys to Clubs whether they are BCA members or not. CSCC will also issue keys to individuals whether they are club members or not. The criteria is that they don't look like they'll either be a danger to themselves or the cave.

I'm to sure about the other Regional Councils so I'll leave it for others to fill in the gaps.

 

[whitelackington]

To go back to the original question, my understanding is that since the formation of the BCA and the "one stop shop", as long as you are a member of one Regional Council, you can apply for access via another RC.

Is that correct?

Close but not quite - the devil is in the detail.

Access is still controlled by the Access Controlling Body, in this discussion the Regional Councils. The One-Stop-Shop did not change that. What did change was that all the Regional Councils agreed to accept any BCA member club was bona-fide and that they could apply for permits/keys.

So it is true to say that a club that is a member of BCA can apply to all Regional Councils for permits/keys.

(NB The criteria is membership of BCA not membership of a Regional Council, although mostly, but not always, membership of a Regional Council implies membership of BCA.)

There is no such agreement for individual members of BCA.

That is about it for general rules, after that it varies from Regional Council to Regional Council.

For good historical reasons CNCC will only issues permits to BCA member clubs. They do not issue permits to individuals.

CSCC will issue keys to Clubs whether they are BCA members or not. CSCC will also issue keys to individuals whether they are club members or not. The criteria is that they don't look like they'll either be a danger to themselves or the cave.

I'm to sure about the other Regional Councils so I'll leave it for others to fill in the gaps.

I thought that CNCC would issue permits to individual Northern cavers?

 

[paul]

To go back to the original question, my understanding is that since the formation of the BCA and the "one stop shop", as long as you are a member of one Regional Council, you can apply for access via another RC.

Is that correct?

Close but not quite - the devil is in the detail.

Access is still controlled by the Access Controlling Body, in this discussion the Regional Councils. The One-Stop-Shop did not change that. What did change was that all the Regional Councils agreed to accept any BCA member club was bona-fide and that they could apply for permits/keys.

So it is true to say that a club that is a member of BCA can apply to all Regional Councils for permits/keys.

(NB The criteria is membership of BCA not membership of a Regional Council, although mostly, but not always, membership of a Regional Council implies membership of BCA.)

There is no such agreement for individual members of BCA.

That is about it for general rules, after that it varies from Regional Council to Regional Council.

For good historical reasons CNCC will only issues permits to BCA member clubs. They do not issue permits to individuals.

CSCC will issue keys to Clubs whether they are BCA members or not. CSCC will also issue keys to individuals whether they are club members or not. The criteria is that they don't look like they'll either be a danger to themselves or the cave.

I'm to sure about the other Regional Councils so I'll leave it for others to fill in the gaps.

Thanks, Cookie.

So, if there is a group of at least 4 cavers (as stated previously, the minimum number to be recognised as a "club" by the BCA) and they have no wish to join an already established Club, they just call their loose group "Such and Such Caving Club" and just apply for membership of the BCA, and if accepted, they can apply for CNCC permits?

 

[Cookie]

In short, yes.

You could do with roughing out a Constitution - but that shouldn't take long.

Full guidelines are here http://www.british-caving.org.uk/?page=121

 

[Glenn]

To go back to the original question, my understanding is that since the formation of the BCA and the "one stop shop", as long as you are a member of one Regional Council, you can apply for access via another RC.

Is that correct?

Close but not quite - the devil is in the detail.

Access is still controlled by the Access Controlling Body, in this discussion the Regional Councils. The One-Stop-Shop did not change that. What did change was that all the Regional Councils agreed to accept any BCA member club was bona-fide and that they could apply for permits/keys.

So it is true to say that a club that is a member of BCA can apply to all Regional Councils for permits/keys.

(NB The criteria is membership of BCA not membership of a Regional Council, although mostly, but not always, membership of a Regional Council implies membership of BCA.)

There is no such agreement for individual members of BCA.

That is about it for general rules, after that it varies from Regional Council to Regional Council.

For good historical reasons CNCC will only issues permits to BCA member clubs. They do not issue permits to individuals.

CSCC will issue keys to Clubs whether they are BCA members or not. CSCC will also issue keys to individuals whether they are club members or not. The criteria is that they don't look like they'll either be a danger to themselves or the cave.

I'm to sure about the other Regional Councils so I'll leave it for others to fill in the gaps.

I thought that CNCC would issue permits to individual Northern cavers?

No. Please refer to my previous post (somewhere on page 2 I think).

Glenn

 

[Bob Mehew]

To go back to the original question, my understanding is that since the formation of the BCA and the "one stop shop", as long as you are a member of one Regional Council, you can apply for access via another RC.

Is that correct?

Close but not quite - the devil is in the detail.

Access is still controlled by the Access Controlling Body, in this discussion the Regional Councils. The One-Stop-Shop did not change that. What did change was that all the Regional Councils agreed to accept any BCA member club was bona-fide and that they could apply for permits/keys.

So it is true to say that a club that is a member of BCA can apply to all Regional Councils for permits/keys.

(NB The criteria is membership of BCA not membership of a Regional Council, although mostly, but not always, membership of a Regional Council implies membership of BCA.)

There is no such agreement for individual members of BCA.

That is about it for general rules, after that it varies from Regional Council to Regional Council.

For good historical reasons CNCC will only issues permits to BCA member clubs. They do not issue permits to individuals.

CSCC will issue keys to Clubs whether they are BCA members or not. CSCC will also issue keys to individuals whether they are club members or not. The criteria is that they don't look like they'll either be a danger to themselves or the cave.

I'm to sure about the other Regional Councils so I'll leave it for others to fill in the gaps.

Cookie the agreement you and I were part of, left things more open than you imply.  We adopted the principal that any Access Controlling Body who was a member of BCA accepted as a condition of membership that they would accept any member of BCA to go down their cave, subject to their own applicable rules (see http://british-caving.org.uk/membership/06C1812_ACB_V5.pdf ).  This requirement was also placed on Regional Caving Councils and clubs who were Access Controlling Bodies.  Thus for CNCC, this means only clubs can book a permit as that was what their rules stated. 

Although I can't recall an example, if an Access Controlling Body rules permits individuals to book a permit / get access, then any BCA individual member is able to make such a booking.  Likewise if an Access Controlling Body has a rule which requires only experienced individuals may go down their cave, tough on those individual who were not experienced.

This was seen as one of the benefits for individual members.

If some is so perverse as to want to create a club and join BCA, then just fill in the form (see http://british-caving.org.uk/membership/06C1811_club_no_insurance_v5.pdf ), include a copy of your constitution and the cheque and BCA Council will consider the application.  But beware BCA has rejected pseudo clubs in the past.  I also suspect the costs by this route are larger than joining some small friendly and cheap club.

PS And in case any one is wondering, there is no difference between a CIM and a DIM in respect of this entitlement.

 

[Cookie]

Access is still controlled by the Access Controlling Body, in this discussion the Regional Councils.

Cookie the agreement you and I were part of, left things more open than you imply.  We adopted the principal that any Access Controlling Body who was a member of BCA accepted as a condition of membership that they would accept any member of BCA to go down their cave, subject to their own applicable rules (see http://british-caving.org.uk/membership/06C1812_ACB_V5.pdf ).  This requirement was also placed on Regional Caving Councils and clubs who were Access Controlling Bodies.  Thus for CNCC, this means only clubs can book a permit as that was what their rules stated. 

I established that I was only talking about Regional councils, so I did not imply anything about Access Controlling Bodies that are not Regional Councils.

Other than that, I agree with you that the benefit to BCA members is more general. Although in practice I believe that the CNCC is the only ACB that was affected by the change.

 

[cap n chris]

For good historical reasons CNCC will only issues permits to BCA member clubs. They do not issue permits to individuals.

However, clubs may apply for a permit which can then be passed over for use by non-members of that club, unless I'm mistaken.