Simon Wilson
New member
Right on Mike. Some people on this thread get it and some don't get it.
Equality and Inclusions in Caving Clubs - Try Dive Spin-Off Thread
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Sam Richards
Member
I think (hope) that 3:4 was just a ratio, EUSS aren't that small!NigR said:
I didn't say anything in the original thread as I didn't feel there wasn't anything I could add. But I can add anecdotal experience, particularly from a student perspective.
Students join up in their droves at the start of every year, but by the end there's usually only a handful who haven't chosen something else, for a range of reasons.
There are lots of things people can choose to do for fun, and if one of those makes them feel uncomfortable in some way, they're less likely to stick with it and pick up another hobby.
I've seen a lot of people feel isolated or excluded by others' behaviour. Most of this has not been deliberate, but people can say the wrong things, or ignore, or yes tell the wrong joke/tell a joke to the wrong person.
As cavers we're generally self-selective as we're pretty hardy and don't mind spending our weekends crawling in filth. Likewise, most wouldn't bat an eyelid at comments that were said in the right spirit, even if they in theory were discriminatory.
For example I know several girls who found the environment too blokey and stopped, but several who didn't. The fact that some girls persevered/didn't mind doesn't mean the others must be at fault for being too sensitive.
I also know I've put my foot in my mouth before and no matter what you do most of us will cause offence occasionally. The job is to keep it to a minimum and be ready to try to smooth things over afterwards.
I accept people who are offended may need to stop and take stock of whether the person who offended them intended to, but it's a two-way street.
royfellows
Well-known member
The older generation who some seem to like to bash with our outdated attitudes or whatever, the word "gentleman" still actually means something. Like acting as a gentleman where ladies are concerned.
NewStuff
New member
Mike Hopley said:
For us, this is being a dickhead. No if's or but's.
I know some of our female cavers very well, and some would (and do) rip you right back, some would tell you to shut up, in which case you don't do it again. It's common sense, and exactly the same applies to male members. All members, irrespective of gender are warned that we take the piss, a lot.
droid
Active member
The extremes of this 'argument' seem to to be :
'Fit in or F**k off'
and
Accommodate everyone.
The reality is probably somewhere in between. Changing and showers can be accommodated with seat covers in the car and co-operation/door guards respectively. No need for embarrassment or mockery
'Fit in or F**k off'
and
Accommodate everyone.
The reality is probably somewhere in between. Changing and showers can be accommodated with seat covers in the car and co-operation/door guards respectively. No need for embarrassment or mockery
aricooperdavis
Moderator
NigR,
It's a ratio, we have significantly more club members than that. But even if we did only have 7 club members I think that it might be easier for people to share what they are uncomfortable about in a way that doesn't make them vulnerable.
I'm glad to hear that you don't feel uncomfortable in the situations that I mentioned - perhaps it's because you don't get unwanted comments and attention when getting changed?
I don't think I said anything particularly inflammatory, and agree completely with Sam's and Mike's commentary - I want to build an environment in our club where nobody is made to feel unduly uncomfortable because of their gender.
So I'm not suggesting that the SWCC install cubicles, I'm suggesting that clubs promote a considerate attitude within their membership.
"What issues have people come across and how have they been dealt with?"
I think the main issues I have come across is pretentious wankers on internet forums spouting shite and trying to make themselves look good (or maybe they are just bored and want some attention).
especially on caving forums where the topics should be about caving and not about some silly jokes that may
have upset some obviously sensitive and delicate souls.
I have dealt with this normally by calling them out on the said forums...............................
I think the main issues I have come across is pretentious wankers on internet forums spouting shite and trying to make themselves look good (or maybe they are just bored and want some attention).
especially on caving forums where the topics should be about caving and not about some silly jokes that may
have upset some obviously sensitive and delicate souls.
I have dealt with this normally by calling them out on the said forums...............................
Disgusted from Cornwall.
New member
[gmod]Post removed. Unacceptably sexist[/gmod]
Ian Adams
Active member
royfellows said:
droid said:
Disgusted from Cornwall. said:
We should, in everything we do, take responsibility for ourselves and not burden others with such ?issues?. Sometimes others (people/clubs) may offer some form of charity for our individual failings but, if they do, we should recognise it for what it is (and not demand or expect it).
We are inescapably all different.
+1 to all three quotes above
Ian
I am curious to why quite a few posters on this topic are so dismissive of it, as if they almost feel threatened by the mere fact someone wants to have the discussion in the first place. why not just let those who want to ask questions do so without being dismissed so sharply. Live and let live folks. If the topic bores you or is not important to you then go debate something else.
NewStuff
New member
droid said:
We don't, and won't. The whole point of going underground is for fun, and it's not fun if you're terrified of offending someone.
However, that's soley an attitude based evaluation. If someone is annoyed by someones gender, skin colour etc, then they fail our attitude test pretty spectacularly.
(Genderqueer but female-presenting.)
In my time caving there have been three distinct strong issues that I believe everyone can agree are way out of line. All three different clubs.
1) Attempted rape during a cave camping event (US - Michigan)
2) Terrifying almost-fall down with high chance of severe injury or death, a 30-40ft steep breakdown pile to stream below when bloke behind me grabbed my ass during a climb (US - Indiana)
3) Repeatedly into my space trying to kiss me / sit with&on me, etc (UK - Mendip)
FWIW - all three happened in my first *year* of caving, as the newbie on the block, the "fresh meat", the unattached female. Interestingly, behavior to this caliber quickly stopped as I made a space for myself in the caving world. And whenever I see a New Female enter, the same fawning happens, until they stick with it and are established - OR they quickly establish a taken status (the whole we-wont-respect-your-no, but we will-respect-your-husbands-no issue).
The trouble is, "harmless" jokes perpetuate poor attitudes, people who are prone to such behavior feel it will be accepted if the culture around them jokes about it. I firmly believe that men can behave themselves, and I will not give them a pass when they don't.
In case 1 - nothing came of it. I promptly quit the club and left. No legal recourse because "nothing happened".
In case 2 - nothing came of it. I got an "I thought you were struggling with the climb" non-appology. Now, I am grateful for climbing help when needed (in this case it was not, I was keeping up with the person ahead of me, was not slipping, and moving on fine), but in any case you don't grab both ass cheeks to do that.
In case 3 - I believe it got taken care of by one of the club leaders who will not put up with that crap and I know he takes great pride in his club
These are just the major aggressions I am sure EVERYONE can agree are above and beyond what anyone should have to put up with. But micro-aggression abound. it is these that can be more difficult to dissect and every individual and every relationship will have a different level of what they see is acceptable.
::On micro-aggressions::
These are the offhand comments, remarks, jokes, that are hard to navigate and seem to have varying "rules", such as the comment in the Try Dive thread. What further confuses, is that some women seem okay with a wide range of such things, and others are not. Honestly, in things like caving, which are still male-dominated and in many areas what we term (here at least) an "Old Boys Club" - I learned fast that if I were to be accepted I had to let these things slide off my back, even give a little giggle, as that was expected.
It becomes rather engrained quickly, because it is positive reinforcing. Male makes sexist joke. I give the classic smile maybe giggle as is expected. Males in club instantly accept me as One Of Them!
Except...is that really healthy? As stated, when creating an environment when joking about sexy ladies, naked women, etc, is acceptable, then those who would take things further are empowered to think it would also be accepted. Also, it ingrains harmful self-ideals which we already know is a struggle for many. It becomes a degredating cycle, unfortunately.
::Where the power lies::
This can be complicated and confused when a women self-depricates, or uses such jokes themselves. I think the key to understand is when using it themselves, the power is with the women using it. I find it a form of release, and often done with someone I know and trust. This can confuse, I understand, and make it seem 'always okay' - and this is why some feminists would say one should always stay away from such jokes and remarks exactly because of this confusion it can cause.
The key here, I believe, is who holds the power of the joke.
In the Try Dive thread, it is a male making a comment about only sexy naked ladies allowed. This puts the power in the hands of him, and others, who would judge the sexy worthiness of the female would-be-naked-diver.
If I say "dangit my boobs don't fit this squeeze!" the power is with me, I am saying it about myself.
If I say "dangit yet again no oversuits in my size, how dare a lady with hips and bust want to cave!" again, it is my ownership to make a joke about the lacking of society.
::Why are naked caving calendars and the like okay then?::
So why would I have issue with the comment in the Dive Thread, but then have some of those naked caving calendars?
Again, the issue with with power/ownership. A calendar is made with complete consent and cooperation, the people in it gave permission for the photos to be used and how they were to be used. (If this is not the case, then it is wrong as well). Think of the difference between leaking a naked photo of someone who never meant for it to be seen publically, versus a specifically set up shot for the intent of viewing in a specific manner. It is about consent and the control of the image resting solely with the person in it.
A comment about wanting sexy naked lady divers is putting the power of judgement of said sexy worthiness on the male requesting it of the female, who would also have little to no control over any of the variables of the situation.
::"I want my jokes still, they're fine, you're a snowflake"::
Look, if that's your stance, at least you own it, and I know you are not a person I would feel safe caving with as that same attitude of not being willing to see from the other perspective and at least try to do better means I cannot judge how far you would go, or how far you would let someone else go, or the types of people you will attract to your caving circle and how far they would go.
But isn't the question about how to be more inclusive? You can't just ask and then dismiss what people say. So i would ask you, is this hanging on to the Old Ways really healthy for the sport as a whole? If you know something is offensive to someone, why would you purposefully continue to do it? I mean, let's face it, purposefully being offensive is really called being an arse-hole. Yes we all slip up. The thing to do is say "I'm sorry" and not do it again. Or is basic decency lost?
If this is about wanting to keep making jokes with your friends, since we already explained that in private among trusted individuals these microagression rules may vary, that means if they are truly and honestly participating in them of their choice and not just to be accepted, by all means continue. (I would make damn sure that it is honest and true participation - protip - judge this by who starts it, because we are conditioned as women in male groups to always deny it bothers us.)
And, why would you promote caving with such "jokes" when you admit it can be harmful and off-putting? The only reason I can see to stick to using them, is that you want a community of cavers that fosters such an environment so I would again question your motives as above.
::Wherein boys will be boys::
Yeah, sod that. You aren't boys, you are men. Fully able to think, reason, and make the people around you feel safe and accepted. A true good person would want nothing less.
In my time caving there have been three distinct strong issues that I believe everyone can agree are way out of line. All three different clubs.
1) Attempted rape during a cave camping event (US - Michigan)
2) Terrifying almost-fall down with high chance of severe injury or death, a 30-40ft steep breakdown pile to stream below when bloke behind me grabbed my ass during a climb (US - Indiana)
3) Repeatedly into my space trying to kiss me / sit with&on me, etc (UK - Mendip)
FWIW - all three happened in my first *year* of caving, as the newbie on the block, the "fresh meat", the unattached female. Interestingly, behavior to this caliber quickly stopped as I made a space for myself in the caving world. And whenever I see a New Female enter, the same fawning happens, until they stick with it and are established - OR they quickly establish a taken status (the whole we-wont-respect-your-no, but we will-respect-your-husbands-no issue).
The trouble is, "harmless" jokes perpetuate poor attitudes, people who are prone to such behavior feel it will be accepted if the culture around them jokes about it. I firmly believe that men can behave themselves, and I will not give them a pass when they don't.
In case 1 - nothing came of it. I promptly quit the club and left. No legal recourse because "nothing happened".
In case 2 - nothing came of it. I got an "I thought you were struggling with the climb" non-appology. Now, I am grateful for climbing help when needed (in this case it was not, I was keeping up with the person ahead of me, was not slipping, and moving on fine), but in any case you don't grab both ass cheeks to do that.
In case 3 - I believe it got taken care of by one of the club leaders who will not put up with that crap and I know he takes great pride in his club
These are just the major aggressions I am sure EVERYONE can agree are above and beyond what anyone should have to put up with. But micro-aggression abound. it is these that can be more difficult to dissect and every individual and every relationship will have a different level of what they see is acceptable.
::On micro-aggressions::
These are the offhand comments, remarks, jokes, that are hard to navigate and seem to have varying "rules", such as the comment in the Try Dive thread. What further confuses, is that some women seem okay with a wide range of such things, and others are not. Honestly, in things like caving, which are still male-dominated and in many areas what we term (here at least) an "Old Boys Club" - I learned fast that if I were to be accepted I had to let these things slide off my back, even give a little giggle, as that was expected.
It becomes rather engrained quickly, because it is positive reinforcing. Male makes sexist joke. I give the classic smile maybe giggle as is expected. Males in club instantly accept me as One Of Them!
Except...is that really healthy? As stated, when creating an environment when joking about sexy ladies, naked women, etc, is acceptable, then those who would take things further are empowered to think it would also be accepted. Also, it ingrains harmful self-ideals which we already know is a struggle for many. It becomes a degredating cycle, unfortunately.
::Where the power lies::
This can be complicated and confused when a women self-depricates, or uses such jokes themselves. I think the key to understand is when using it themselves, the power is with the women using it. I find it a form of release, and often done with someone I know and trust. This can confuse, I understand, and make it seem 'always okay' - and this is why some feminists would say one should always stay away from such jokes and remarks exactly because of this confusion it can cause.
The key here, I believe, is who holds the power of the joke.
In the Try Dive thread, it is a male making a comment about only sexy naked ladies allowed. This puts the power in the hands of him, and others, who would judge the sexy worthiness of the female would-be-naked-diver.
If I say "dangit my boobs don't fit this squeeze!" the power is with me, I am saying it about myself.
If I say "dangit yet again no oversuits in my size, how dare a lady with hips and bust want to cave!" again, it is my ownership to make a joke about the lacking of society.
::Why are naked caving calendars and the like okay then?::
So why would I have issue with the comment in the Dive Thread, but then have some of those naked caving calendars?
Again, the issue with with power/ownership. A calendar is made with complete consent and cooperation, the people in it gave permission for the photos to be used and how they were to be used. (If this is not the case, then it is wrong as well). Think of the difference between leaking a naked photo of someone who never meant for it to be seen publically, versus a specifically set up shot for the intent of viewing in a specific manner. It is about consent and the control of the image resting solely with the person in it.
A comment about wanting sexy naked lady divers is putting the power of judgement of said sexy worthiness on the male requesting it of the female, who would also have little to no control over any of the variables of the situation.
::"I want my jokes still, they're fine, you're a snowflake"::
Look, if that's your stance, at least you own it, and I know you are not a person I would feel safe caving with as that same attitude of not being willing to see from the other perspective and at least try to do better means I cannot judge how far you would go, or how far you would let someone else go, or the types of people you will attract to your caving circle and how far they would go.
But isn't the question about how to be more inclusive? You can't just ask and then dismiss what people say. So i would ask you, is this hanging on to the Old Ways really healthy for the sport as a whole? If you know something is offensive to someone, why would you purposefully continue to do it? I mean, let's face it, purposefully being offensive is really called being an arse-hole. Yes we all slip up. The thing to do is say "I'm sorry" and not do it again. Or is basic decency lost?
If this is about wanting to keep making jokes with your friends, since we already explained that in private among trusted individuals these microagression rules may vary, that means if they are truly and honestly participating in them of their choice and not just to be accepted, by all means continue. (I would make damn sure that it is honest and true participation - protip - judge this by who starts it, because we are conditioned as women in male groups to always deny it bothers us.)
And, why would you promote caving with such "jokes" when you admit it can be harmful and off-putting? The only reason I can see to stick to using them, is that you want a community of cavers that fosters such an environment so I would again question your motives as above.
::Wherein boys will be boys::
Yeah, sod that. You aren't boys, you are men. Fully able to think, reason, and make the people around you feel safe and accepted. A true good person would want nothing less.
Ive got to say at least one of the Cornish groups, no names mentioned ,do seem have almost extremist views . I know they have had members involved in EDL and I have seen some of them wearing t shirts glorifying WW2 ,C18 etc. . I would imagine this group would take a very dim view of ethnics minorities . They have had one or two women pass through their ranks but they don't stay long . I have rubbed up against them once or twice and they were talking of starting up another group in North Wales .I did actually challenge them on their *banter* ,they threatened me and told me to stay away, they know where I live so best not say much more .
Disgusted from Cornwall.
New member
[Content deleted at owner's request]
Debauchery down South
New member
[gmod]This post is offensive and has been removed[/gmod]
Chocolate fireguard
Active member
No problem.2xw said:
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