Equality and Inclusions in Caving Clubs - Try Dive Spin-Off Thread

[RobinGriffiths]

When I last looked last night, I suspected this thread would not go well.

 

[Peregrina]

So why would I have issue with the comment in the Dive Thread, but then have some of those naked caving calendars?
Again, the issue with with power/ownership. A calendar is made with complete consent and cooperation, the people in it gave permission for the photos to be used and how they were to be used.

Spot on. Hopefully pwhole reads this after bringing up the SUSS calendar in the original thread!

 

[CatM]

[gmod] Can the trolls please return to their bridges, else this thread will need to be locked.[/gmod]

 

[NigR]

NigR,
I'm glad to hear that you don't feel uncomfortable in the situations that I mentioned - perhaps it's because you don't get unwanted comments and attention when getting changed?

Funny you should mention this, Ari. Now, I go surfing a lot these days and, a couple of months ago, I was getting changed in the car park at Coney Beach (Porthcawl) when I heard a shout behind me (fortunately from a female voice) of "Nice bum!". Somewhat startled, I turned around to see a very presentable lady surf photographer with a big smile on her face (she was returning to her waiting husband/boyfriend in their vehicle parked nearby). Naturally, I was somewhat perturbed by my careless lack of modesty (it was a gorgeous sunny morning, surf was pumping and I was in a hurry to get in the water) but, these considerations aside, I did not find it a particularly upsetting or distressing experience. I took the comment on board in the spirit it had been offered, smiled back sheepishly and simply said "Thanks". So, did I do wrong? Should I have felt violated and been close to tears? Have I encouraged this person to engage in even more outrageous sexist behaviour in the future? Sorry, but no I don't think so.

I am pleased to hear your club has more members than I thought and I genuinely do think it is good that you are doing everything you can to make them feel at ease. However, it does concern me that anyone (male or female) participating in any form of outdoor activity should have even the slightest concern about getting changed by the roadside. Certainly, using surfing as a yardstick yet again, there are literally thousands of people (young and old) getting changed in precisely those conditions on any given day here in South Wales when there is a decent swell around. So, is this unique to modern caving, I wonder?

 

[droid]

That's the problem with inclusiveness.

You have to put up with stuff that annoys you.

We don't, and won't. The whole point of going underground is for fun, and it's not fun if you're terrified of offending someone.
However, that's soley an attitude based evaluation. If someone is annoyed by someones gender, skin colour etc, then they fail our attitude test pretty spectacularly.

That was aimed at BradW, who seems to have a problem with 'inclusiveness' when it involves people with an opinion other than his/hers.

I'm in your camp. Not 'terrified' of offending, don't give a shit about gender, skin colour etc.

 

[royfellows]

Very quickly reading though this this thread before hitting the road I see a reflection of life and society (at least a free one) in general. The fact that thread title  relates "caving clubs" is collateral.

Believe it or not I of all people had a 'bad experience' with an individual years ago with whom I no longer associate, not female. Not saying any more as it would be too easy for someone to think it through.

My point is, caving or Morris Dancing, its part of life. One has to learn to deal with it and move on.

Oh yes, and before anyone thinks "knock his f-----g head off", no its not that easy.

 

[Rachel]

In my early days of caving I had a problem with a male caver who thought it was ok to give me unneeded 'help' up every climb by grabbing my backside with both hands.....until my foot 'accidentally' slipped and planted in his face.

Generally I've found the vast majority of cavers to be friendly and welcoming. I don't mind 99% of the joking and banter and when I've been on the receiving end of the other 1%, a quiet chat with the person has mainly resulted in them embarassedly admitting that they didn't realise they were upsetting me, apologising and both of us moving on, on good terms. A tiny minority have turned out to be complete knobs, but not in the percentages that this thread appears to be harbouring.

Edit: I'm referring to this thread, not the try-dive one, which I only read after writing the above. Knowing DaveR and knowing the backstory of the Swimsuitless Scandinavians, I got the joke, although I can see how someone who doesn't know either could see it differently.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

All joking aside, the CBC grew from a group of people whose attitudes were different to the "club" mentality. I ended up in the local caving club, having decided that poking around mine tips and going in adits was getting a bit dangerous and I needed to get on rope. I met a fellow CBCer and we started going off "doing our own trips". This wasn't due to some sort of revolutionary attitude, or finger up to authority, it was down to the local club doing the same 5 trips, week in, week out. We were there to explore disused mines. We went out and found some fascinating re-discoveries, in the spirit of the people who started the caving club 40 years previously. Soon enough, the activity on mine-explorer .co.uk put a bunch of people together and we started organising better trips. Others, ostracised from the local caving clubs joined up and soon the non-club was born. The same people saying "Oh that SD is up to no good, running around breaking in places and upsetting people" were responsible for the same thing across the board. So the CBC decided to play up to this, with it's hacksaw officer, captain bolt cutters and the jolly roger flag, etc. We don't seriously go around chopping locks off!

Anyway, I digress. Caving clubs are a particular habitat and within the habitat are certain sorts of animals. There are several "types" and IMO, these can be generalised (in an amusing way). Whilst the CBC has it's rape jokes and is laughably a white male safe space , it lacks single men looking for wives within their hobby (which are a problem for caving ladies) and the empire building control freaks that have to micromanage everything.

In a lot of cases, it's about power. I lived in W Cornwall for a few years and then had the misfortune of becoming redundant and having to move back to E Cornwall with the folks. I contacted the local caving club and said "I'm going to be down holes, so I may as well join up and do them together". Needless to say, my email was not acknowledged.

The very worst sorts of people I've met in caving have been highly involved in formal caving clubs. Since the CBC isn't a formal caving club, we have a no-wakner policy and it works well. I take a dim view (we) of people setting themselves up as access emperors, being generally horrible to whoever, minority or not. If anyone is out of order, they are binned straight away. No fiddling or fussing. There is no need to organise such nonsense into categories, or attempt broad brush labels and rules. It's simple, hang out with a bunch of great people and enjoy yourself.

Everyone is welcome on my/our trips, whether gay, black, yellow, strap-on gender, neo-nazi, the lot. On the proviso they leave their offensiveness at home.

We have a bad rep in the SW, due to access hitlers and the trolling of such (lol). Anyone visiting the area is welcome. Send us a PM. 

 

[zomjon]

I have to say, the last posts made by DFC and Amata, though so different, have both been thoughtful and revealing in their honesty, and I have enjoyed reading both in their own ways.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Mr Cornwall,
Why have you spent the last three years convincing the forum that you are an extremely nasty, agressive bigot who is determined to do criminal damage and commit the criminal act of unlawful entry to property, why are you now saying something different and which do you expect us to believe?

 

[fat pat]

[gmod]This post has been removed as being sexist, racist and homophobic.[/gmod]

 

[droid]

Mr Cornwall,
Why have you spent the last three years convincing the forum that you are an extremely nasty, agressive bigot who is determined to do criminal damage and commit the criminal act of unlawful entry to property, why are you now saying something different and which do you expect us to believe?

You don't do irony, do you Simon.....

 

[Amy]

[gmod]This post has been removed because it quoted another (unacceptable) post which had been removed. Sorry Amata[/gmod]

 

[Badlad]

[gmod]Locked while I take a calm look at this thread and read through the reported post log[/gmod]

 

[Badlad]

[gmod]Fat Pat, Debauchery down South and Disgusted from Cornwall - some of your posts are totally unacceptable and have been removed. Please do not make these sort of posts again. They make other forum users very uncomfortable and I apologise on your behalf to everyone. One more post of even a vague sexist, homophobic or racist nature will result in a ban.[/gmod]

 

[Badlad]

[gmod]Action has now been taken. Personally I am ashamed when I read these awful posts. It is totally unacceptable and please don't believe it is anything else. I am going to unlock the thread - please forum users, restore my faith in cavers.[/gmod]

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I'd like to apologise to all for my mindless trolling. It was meant in jest, but landed wide of that mark.

People who know me know to add a big pinch of salt where necessary. I am awful and in this case, it appears that I owe you all an apology, if you have been offended by my remarks.

It's probably sensible at this point to reflect on the proceedings and take a slice of humble pie.

I am genuinely sorry to those who I have upset. I had no idea it would have been taken at face value.

I promise to never troll again.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

When I last looked last night, I suspected this thread would not go well.

Yes, the bloodbath I expected.

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Indeed.

I'm sure most of us never saw it coming.

 

[droid]

Trouble is, when you see delicate flowers, it's sometimes very difficult to refrain from taking the piss.