New Petzl Stop & Freino karabiner

[MPC-Robin]

Having replaced my old stop with the new version I also bought a Freino krab to go with it.

First time out on Sunday I encountered some problems and wondered if anyone else had experienced the same.

At the first rebelay I lowered onto my cowstails and found that I couldn't get the rope free of the krab, all the other gear was compressed together ( chest ascender, cowstails etc ). After trying various things fortunately I could get back up easily ( Sell Gill first pitch ).

I also discovered that the cowstails had also managed to twist the krab lock and end up passing through the krab.

After that I reverted to a normal braking krab and continued without incident for the rest of the day.

Without a rebelay to test on I'm not confident to trust this again - it could be the order I have the gear on the D ring which caused problems, does anyone have any advice on using a freino or has anyone else experienced problems.

 

[aricooperdavis]

I've never experienced any of these issues with the new freino/stop combo. What order to you have your kit on your D-ring? Do you use a hand ascender tether? Were you going up or down?

Some suggestions:

• Double check that the freino is properly oriented with respect to the stop and your D-ring (braking spur facing you).
• Keep your personal kit tidy in use - try not to cross your cows tails over your stop or your hand ascender tether around the pitch rope etc.
• Practice on the ground before you try it in anger.

I find it very hard to believe that the cowstails had opened the freino lock! Is it possible that the knot had jumped through it instead?

 

[topcat]

At first sight the Freino is a great bit of kit which is why I bought one.
On second sight they are much more trouble than they are worth which is why I sold it......

 

[MPC-Robin]

@topcat that's probably going to be my next step ...

In answer to ari :

The freino was properly orientated.
Descending Sell Gill first pitch the rebelay is on your right - my cowstails are on the left of the stop krab so at some point the cowstails will cross while lowering onto them. The hand ascender tether is on the far right of the D ring and didn't have any effect on the outcome.
I had practiced loading the stop on the ground but not fully loading under a rebelay.

I found it hard to believe that the cowstails had opened the krab but rolling the knot against the krab lock did turn it and the knot started on the left of the freino and ended up there with the cowstails through the krab.

I will try and test again when I have access to a rebelay I can fully weight.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Have used old Stop and old Freino, also new Stop and new Freino (i.e. Freino Z) but not experienced that issue myself. Just out of interest as probably not the issue, but which Freino do you have with your new style Stop?

Petzl Freino Carabiner - Inglesport

Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977

www.inglesport.com

Petzl Freino Z Braking Carabiner - Inglesport

Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977

www.inglesport.com

 

[Samouse1]

Was it just a case of everything being in the way that meant you couldn't get it out the crab, or was the rope fully tight, as in you were at the bottom of the v?

 

[MPC-Robin]

@Cantclimbtom - Freino ( the top one ) - selected as it said it could be used with a Grigri ( which gave another option )

@Samouse1 - all the gear compressed together as the cowstails were weighted and couldn't get to the gate to free the rope, it wasn't tight.

 

[Samouse1]

In that case my suggestions would be similar to Ari, rope management to make sure you have access to the breaking spur!

 

[ChrisB]

I had the impression that the Freino was compatible with the old style stop and the Freino Z was required with the new stop. On re-reading the Petzl website it's not 100% clear - the Freino Z is only compatible with the new stop (D009AA00) but it doesn't say that the original Freino isn't. The original Freino is stated to be compatible with the D09 STOP, which seems to be the reference for the old STOP - but since that's not on the Petzl website any more it's not definitive...

I'm glad I use a braking krab!

 

[andrewmcleod]

You should be able to use the old Freino with anything - you just clip into your descender like any other normal carabiner, except it has a braking spur. You can't spin it round though, like you would with a 'normal' D/oval carabiner, to make it gravity loaded (and even if you can, the braking spur would then be upside-down). Fortunately since it's a twistlock, gravity loading is not important.

The new post-2019ish Stop/Rig have a larger carabiner slot. This allows you to pass the braking part of the Freino Z carabiner through that hole, rotating the carabiner so the carabiner would be gravity-loaded (if it was a screwgate, which it is not). This does make it easier to clip/unclip the descender from your D-ring. The braking carabiner part is upside-down compared to the non-Z Freino, which means that you can't use the pre-2019 Stop/Rig with the Freino Z because (since you can't spin the carabiner through their smaller carabiner slot) the braking part would be upside-down.

Also, triple-action versions of the Freino (at least the Freino Z version) do exist because I have one.

Summary: old Freino should work with everything
Freino Z only for post-2019 Stop/Rig (and presumably I'D etc.?)
Triple action Freino Z available (but rarer).

 

[ChrisB]

Thanks, andrewmcleod, for that explanation. I have a new Stop and did buy a triple action Freino Z but didn't like it, and on reflection I think the fact that the braking spur was close to my Omni was one of the reasons. I have my braking krab behind the Stop and like having the space to lock off.

 

[pwhole]

Just buy a Raumer Handy instead?

 

[JoshW]

@Samouse1 - all the gear compressed together as the cowstails were weighted and couldn't get to the gate to free the rope, it wasn't tight.

Have you done much practicing of using the kit you’ve got to ‘self-rescue’?

Sounds potentially like a quick step up into a footloop would have released the tension in the cowstails and enabled you to take in the slack in your stop to sit comfortably.

Potentially ‘unfriendly’ rigging might have left you in a situation where you had no choice but to swing out onto a fairly simple pitch-head (like sell gill first pitch) on your cowstails without having taken in the slack between the stop and the Y hang.

All kit will fail in weird and wonderful ways if used outside of their optimum.

My suggestion would be to get somewhere like the YSS wall and practice getting into weird situations and getting out of them efficiently with the kit that’s on you

 

[Rob Blackmann]

New to the whole caving rope scene but I've been doing dry runs from a tree with a Simple and Frieno Z (spur up). I noticed the D ring gets a bit crowded but found clipping the descender to the left of the Croll worked better as the Croll then lays to right and out of the way a bit, freeing up space on the D ring so it's not as cluttered. So from left to right, cow tail knot, Frieno, Croll.
Also getting the cow tail knot cinched up tight on the D ring helps a bit so it's not as floppy on the D ring.
That'll probably all go out the window when I try it live pumped and with disco leg, but it's always good trying different set ups on the ground.
Could a dog bone be kept on the D ring, the Frieno and descender could be clipped into it to keep the Frieno out of the way of the cow tails knot?

 

[badger]

I have the new stop and new ferino krab, never experienced these issues

 

[Mark Wright]

Some suggestions:

• Double check that the freino is properly oriented with respect to the stop and your D-ring (braking spur facing you).

I find it very hard to believe that the cowstails had opened the freino lock! Is it possible that the knot had jumped through it instead?

I know the instruction diagrams that Petzl produce for both the Freino and Freino Z show the friction spur to be facing you, but I think that may be so they can easily show how the friction spur should be loaded. The written instructions don't specify which way round it should be for a Stop. I haven't checked what any videos have to say about it.

In industry it's always been considered best practice to have the descender's carabiner gate facing towards you so that it can be easily checked for correct closure with a simple glance. I had early prototypes of the new Stop and Freino Z to test and I used it with the gate facing towards me and the friction spur on the outside. It was down Eldon Hole so there were a range of right and left handed re-belays. I had no problem with it at all, although I never bothered with it after a few trips. The 11mm ropes we had permanently rigged in Eldon became so stiff you needed 6 x scaffold tubes dangling underneath you to make any downward progress!

For a Freino Z to work effectively with an I'D or Rig descender device, with a curved wear plate, the friction spur has to be on the same side as the wear plate, typically facing towards you. It shouldn't matter which way round it is for a new Stop or Simple.

Whilst double action, twist lock carabiners may have their place in some situations, using one as the main descender attachment on a caving harness would be about the last place I would choose to use one.

There is a pretty high potential for, e.g., ropes, cow's tails, harness webbing, loose over-suit material, a large belly or the rock to rub against the gate during normal use and cause a 'roll-out' type action. In MPC-Robin's recent incident, possibly 'roll-in'.

With the carabiner gate on the outside, all the above potential hazards would be even more difficult to check at a glance. The instructions for the Freino mentions the importance of always checking the double action twist lock gate is closed correctly without anything being caught in it.

For me, the Freino Z Triact Lock with the friction spur on the outside would be the safest option. However, you can buy 2 x OK Triact Locks for the same price as a Freino Z Triact Lock with the second one providing arguably a better level of friction control that can be positioned in a number of locations, e.g., central D, waist belt, leg loop or Pantin strap, and can also be easily used for anything else it might be needed for.

The Triact-Lock versions of the Freino Z are usually only available through Petzl resellers with industrial accounts. Inglesport and Starless River both sell them.

 

[MPC-Robin]

@Mark Wright - thanks for your detailed response.
I did wonder about the braking spur on the outside but will probably not bother now after testing again last night inside.
I repeated the roll-in of the cows tails into the carabiner with the gate facing the outside and that is enough to put me off using it.
I went through the problems with another experienced club member and the conclusion was that it seemed more trouble than it was worth. I will be reverting to a normal braking carabiner in future with a stell screwgate carabiner to connect the stop to the d ring.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

N

@Mark Wright - thanks for your detailed response.
I did wonder about the braking spur on the outside but will probably not bother now after testing again last night inside.
I repeated the roll-in of the cows tails into the carabiner with the gate facing the outside and that is enough to put me off using it.
I went through the problems with another experienced club member and the conclusion was that it seemed more trouble than it was worth. I will be reverting to a normal braking carabiner in future with a stell screwgate carabiner to connect the stop to the d ring.

No idea how that's happening and why it's causing you such difficulty. But... if for whatever reason it's not the right but of kit for you (and I think this thread has clearly established that) then - it's not right for you!

Maybe your next thread will be in "For Sale / Wanted / Free Recycling" section, because someone will probably buy it from you

 

[andrewmcleod]

What _is_ interesting is that the Petzl Stop manual now only includes one method of locking off, shown with a Freino Z, and it's not one I've ever seen anyone do... it's basically do a 'half' lock, clip into the Freino a second time and do a second 'half' lock... I guess two halves make a whole?

There used to be all sorts of weird lock-offs shown with putting twists into Freinos etc.

edit: found some: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-STOP-descender

 

[hannahb]

What _is_ interesting is that the Petzl Stop manual now only includes one method of locking off, shown with a Freino Z, and it's not one I've ever seen anyone do... it's basically do a 'half' lock, clip into the Freino a second time and do a second 'half' lock... I guess two halves make a whole?

There used to be all sorts of weird lock-offs shown with putting twists into Freinos etc.

edit: found some: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-STOP-descender

Someone on the forum showed a photo of them using this method, relatively recently. It gave me the heeby jeebies until I looked at a Petzl document and, as you found, it's legit