New Petzl Stop & Freino karabiner

[hannahb]

I'm not pretending to understand all the tangles people have experienced here, but I wonder if some of the problems can be solved by having the descender on the left of all the other gear.

I thought that was standard/strongly recommended but perhaps I'm out of date.

 

[JoshW]

I generally go left to right cowstails, descender, Croll then safety link/hand ascender clipped into the loop on the right of the D ring.

I genuinely think this is an issue of not taking the slack in from between descender and anchor before loading. That and potentially cowstails management, why are both cowstails being left attached whilst swinging onto pitch head, get the short off and trust the long as a back up. Suddenly the descender takes the weight and the long can be removed after a test of descender/rope.

 

[langcliffe]

I thought that was standard/strongly recommended but perhaps I'm out of date.

Personally, I think it is up to the individual to establish over time whatever is best for him/her. I have been using SRT for 54 years, and from left to right, I currently have a connection to my foot loop (I use an unorthodox foot loop, hence the phraseology), cows tails, croll, and an old-style Simple on an old-style Freino, which works for me with my current equipment. However, my caving colleagues have different preferences, which work for them. I have had to adapt my set-up in the past when I have adopted new equipment.

 

[dougle89]

What _is_ interesting is that the Petzl Stop manual now only includes one method of locking off, shown with a Freino Z, and it's not one I've ever seen anyone do... it's basically do a 'half' lock, clip into the Freino a second time and do a second 'half' lock... I guess two halves make a whole?

There used to be all sorts of weird lock-offs shown with putting twists into Freinos etc.

edit: found some: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-STOP-descender

That double looping method is what they recommend for the simple too I believe, seems like they're standardising on their bobbin locking

 

[langcliffe]

What _is_ interesting is that the Petzl Stop manual now only includes one method of locking off, shown with a Freino Z, and it's not one I've ever seen anyone do... it's basically do a 'half' lock, clip into the Freino a second time and do a second 'half' lock... I guess two halves make a whole?

It's what I have done since originally getting a Freino when they first came out. It's very quick, and very effective. Other people have been converted to it after I have shewn them.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

It's what I have done since originally getting a Freino when they first came out. It's very quick, and very effective. Other people have been converted to it after I have shewn them.

It works for me also

 

[andrewmcleod]

I generally go left to right cowstails, descender, Croll then safety link/hand ascender clipped into the loop on the right of the D ring.

There is an argument to put the safety link on the left side (either side of the cowstails) because:
a) anything on the right of the Croll could interfere with opening the cam
b) any rope on your right-hand side can be grabbed by accident instead of the brake rope. You can still accidentally grab a rebelay loop or similar (I did this a while ago and briefly scared the crap out of myself after pulling the Rig handle and going rather faster than expected), but you cut down on the possibilities (and I have heard of people having accidents through grabbing a brake rope that isn't the brake rope).

I have a left-handed hand ascender (and Basics are left-handed IIRC?) so putting the safety link on the left side is logical anyway; obviously may cause more faff with a right-handed ascender.

 

[JoshW]

There is an argument to put the safety link on the left side

Horses for courses ain’t it, I haven’t found it interfere with the croll yet because it theoretically shouldnt be under tension while I try to do anything with my croll (or at all), and it’s just far enough away to govern the croll gate plenty of room to be accessed.

 

[moorfurlong]

You should be able to use the old Freino with anything - you just clip into your descender like any other normal carabiner, except it has a braking spur. You can't spin it round though, like you would with a 'normal' D/oval carabiner, to make it gravity loaded (and even if you can, the braking spur would then be upside-down). Fortunately since it's a twistlock, gravity loading is not important.

The new post-2019ish Stop/Rig have a larger carabiner slot. This allows you to pass the braking part of the Freino Z carabiner through that hole, rotating the carabiner so the carabiner would be gravity-loaded (if it was a screwgate, which it is not). This does make it easier to clip/unclip the descender from your D-ring. The braking carabiner part is upside-down compared to the non-Z Freino, which means that you can't use the pre-2019 Stop/Rig with the Freino Z because (since you can't spin the carabiner through their smaller carabiner slot) the braking part would be upside-down.

Also, triple-action versions of the Freino (at least the Freino Z version) do exist because I have one.

Summary: old Freino should work with everything
Freino Z only for post-2019 Stop/Rig (and presumably I'D etc.?)
Triple action Freino Z available (but rarer).

Freinio Z easy to find and buy and found on this side of Petzl site https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Professional/Connectors/FREINO-Z

 

[moorfurlong]

What _is_ interesting is that the Petzl Stop manual now only includes one method of locking off, shown with a Freino Z, and it's not one I've ever seen anyone do... it's basically do a 'half' lock, clip into the Freino a second time and do a second 'half' lock... I guess two halves make a whole?

There used to be all sorts of weird lock-offs shown with putting twists into Freinos etc.

edit: found some: https://www.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Tying-off-the-STOP-descender

I Use a new stop and freino Z, its not perfect ( what is ) the the lock off as you say no one does is due to , 1) Because most folk never read instructions, 2) why change something you used to, even if kit has changed to make life easier, folk get set in there ways, ) 3) I use this method all the while and never had an issue and its quick

 

[cap n chris]

My tuppence; if you're caving and you're not at work you can probably do anything you wish to lock off, provided it works. A slip knot, magic knot, overhand knot clipped into safety connectors, Gordian knot, wrapping the rope around your leg and then making a tourniquet on a bight. However, if you're at work you probably have to copy/follow the printed factsheet, cos.

 

[Maisie Syntax]

My tuppence; if you're caving and you're not at work you can probably do anything you wish to lock off, provided it works. A slip knot, magic knot, overhand knot clipped into safety connectors, Gordian knot, wrapping the rope around your leg and then making a tourniquet on a bight. However, if you're at work you probably have to copy/follow the printed factsheet, cos.

I've always found the Gordian knot is very reliable, although I've heard that most folk find undoing it a bit of a bugger

 

[wellyjen]

I've always found the Gordian knot is very reliable, although I've heard that most folk find undoing it a bit of a bugger

It takes a ridiculous amount of rope to tie as well. Means you run out half way down the pitch.
I reckon if a knot was ok for my Granny, it is ok for me.