Petzl Stop Poll

[newcastlecaver]

I was told almost straight away of the dangers- we practiced using the Petzl Stop indoors and the person showing me put a Krab through the hole attached to the handle so that it became a bobbin to demonstrate how it worked. We practiced going up and down the rope and then when on my first pitch (Calf Holes- fantastic place to start!) we were life-lined just in case. If people take the care to watch novices and follow the above more or less the Stop (in my opinion) is very good. I was also told to hold the rope at the bottom of the pitch to pull tight if someone did appear to start freefalling (although I appreciate this can have dangers in itself, rock fall, people falling on you etc).

I think some problems with the Stop sometimes come from people not clipping in properly and trying to do things too fast so show how 'good' they are.

I have admittedly never used a rack but am quite happy with my Stop for the time being

 

[Mine Explorer]

They were made by Jopo - in the dim and distant past.

I thought they were credited to him.

I did come across a non-Petzl "normal" stop not too long ago - was it a clog stop? I can't remember, but it was quite a large lump compared to the Petzl ones.

 

[ian mckenzie]

Not to get sidetracked (sorry Andy), but have you seen this one http://www.storrick.cnchost.com/VerticalDevicesPage/VerticalHome.shtml

 

[Mark]

Having used the stop on an almost daily basis for the last 20 yrs (rope access) I cant really fault it, some times when a beginner is shown how to use one they get confused and thread it backwards, but it only happens a couple of times before they get the hang of it.

Having also been knocked unconcious 50ft from the floor whilst using a stop it proved to be very user friendly when carrying out rescue

 

[tubby two]

Q2- Was told thst if you grabbed the handle and let go of the dead end you did the ol' 'petzl plummit', but wasnt told it had a bad accident record, but i dont believe it does- as people have said above, its a very popular device. I'd be interested to see some stats though, on usage and accidents, maybe including grigri's as well as stops and racks- because although not caving kit they do seem to have a bit of a reputation.

I was 'trained' underground, someone told me what to do as i got on the rope in heron pot, though i'd used a fig. 8 underground a few times years before that! I'd also done lots of climbing so knew how to ab without a 'stop' device, hence it was just an extra safety feature. As far as above ground training we were shown how to do change-overs hanging from a beam in a garage, but that was after i'd used it caving a few times!

I've been teaching people to use it for the past few years and never had any problems- normally works if you select a short, dry pitch underground, with a good take off so you can be right next to novices and talk them through every move- i also put them on a slack lifeline first time and have someone at the bottom (out the way) holding the rope.
It seems most important to just explain stuff thoroughly to them(e.g all control from R (dead) hand, fully depress handle and always test before unclipping cowstail).
If they seem to like caving we then give them further training above ground if they seem to require it.

no problems yet, and would reccomend a stop to anyone.

tt.

p.s. stops also have the advantage of being ridiculously versatile- i've used one as a jammer when stuck, good for tyroleans and can be disabled....

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Oh no! Not the Petzl Stop "debate" again

Yes, and I make no apologies for it.

Do I smell hidden agendas and bias ?

Indeed, it's called trying to reduce avoidable accidents.

The Petzl Stop accidents which resulted in cave rescue have averaged one a year through the last decade. This may not seem many but the injuries are often severe and have caused permanent disablement and at least one case of paraplegia. In addition to the recorded accidents are numerous other lesser incidents and injuries as many of you out there can testify. You may be inclined to say one a year isn't excessive but the fact is all these accidents and injuries are avoidable.

Avoidance can be achieved in two ways: - One is to adopt the policy of the French, Dutch and Belgiums and to actively discourage use of the Stop in favour of the simpler Bobbin. The other option is to greatly improve the standards of training for the Petzl Stop.

I think the Stop is now so rooted in our caving culture that a general change in favour of the Bobbin is unlikely. Therefore we need to address the standards of training, and we can't do that unless we have some notion of how cavers are learning. Creating this poll, I felt, might provide information on this. I think the feedback comments are actually more revealing, if often rather depressing. To those who take this sort of view:

I'm not even sure that the poor quality of training should be blamed - what sort of idiot doesn't read the instructions for such a critical piece of equipment ??

Please bear in mind that many people learn using club equipment and never get to see an instruction sheet. Their safety is entirely in the hands of those that teach them, and there the responsibility must lie for any accident that occurs during the training period. Also, and very importantly, the Petzl user instructions are, quite frankly, crap. Diagrams alone are not adequate in explaining safe use of the Stop. They are particularly unhelpful when they illustrate normal use of the Stop as being without a braking karabiner. Don't forget that Petzl felt the need to publish additional advice after the first few clutch and plummet accidents back in the 80s but were never inclined to include this in the instruction leaflet. Did anyone notice the deafening silence from Petzl during the recent discussions on Stop accidents in Descent magazine?

It's like this. If we don't improve our training we can expect one caver every year to be injured, crippled or, inevitably, killed. These are real people, currently healthy and happy, whose lives may be ruined because British cavers failed to recognise a problem and do something about it.

 

[dunc]

Question 2: Were you made aware during your training that the Stop had a bad accident record?

Not that I recall, although I was told how to use it at the entrance to a pot (including not to grab it), which was good enough for me - 8years on and I've had no real problems with using it..

Please bear in mind that many people learn using club equipment and never get to see an instruction sheet

Yep, thats the way I learnt.. Being taught is better than being left to it on your own - like has been said - who reads instructiion/safety leaflets anyway!!

 

[Rachel]

I agree with Andy that the key to improving safety is in training, but not that the way to go is to convert everyone to bobbins. Anyone abseiling on a rack, fig 8, bobbin, whatever is well aware that if they let go of the rope, they are going to end up in a heap at the bottom of the pitch. The problem as I see it is that a lot of people think that because the stop has a safety handle, then it's ok to let go of the rope anytime they like. I'm not that well acquainted with the details of stop accidents but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that most of them are nothing to do with cavers being knocked uncionscious - the reason the safety handle is there. As far as the clutch and plummet is concerned, the only reason a caver could possibly plummet is by not having hold of the rope and therefore the only difference that using a bobbin would make is that the caver would flap left hand uselessly and plummet instead. That brings it back to training. I was trained on a climbing wall and was made to abseil on a stop until my backside was about a foot off the floor, then do the dreaded clutch and plummet. Believe me, after repeating that 10 times, you can't sit down for about a week! Following that up by a couple of hours of having to let go of the stop handle when someone yells/hits you/pokes you with a stick (a bit like the emergency stop on the driving test) and I've never felt the urge to grip the handle in a panic. That method obviously worked for me as I'm still here and in one piece, but it would be interesting to know what sort of training the professionals recommend.

 

[langcliffe]

whose lives may be ruined because British cavers failed to recognise a problem and do something about it.

Really, Andy, does the discussion have to degenerate into these emotive generalisations?

 

[MSD]

I agree with Andy that training is the issue. I am extremely familiar with this, since I have spent a significant amount of my time over the years training cavers (for free!).

A much bigger difference between France and the UK than choice of descender is that France has a well-organised caver training system with various levels of qualification. Britain has only a qualification scheme for cave leaders (amateur or professional). Your ordinary trainee caver might or might not be trained well, depending on some mixture of luck, persistence and financial means.

 

[cap n chris]

Britain has only a qualification scheme for cave leaders

Aha, the old "licence to cave" argument again! Perhaps there's some mileage here though. Perhaps if ALL aspirant UK cavers were trained to a specific level (thereby reducing the risks inherent in using items like Petzl Stops) before they were allowed underground (similar to the Belgium system, I think?) then preventable accidents would indeed be significantly reduced.

However, given the AMAZINGLY VIOLENT REACTIONS this creates among cavers it's probably not even worth mentioning so ignore this entry of mine.

 

[MSD]

I'm not specifically stating an opinion one way or the other as to whether a formaised training scheme for caving in Britain is a good idea or not. I was just pointing out that comparisons UK vs France (or other countries)need to be made with other issues in mind if sensible conclusions are to be made about accident records. Level and attitude to training seems an important variable.

 

[cap n chris]

I'm not specifically stating an opinion one way or the other as to whether a formaised training scheme for caving in Britain is a good idea or not. I was just pointing out that comparisons UK vs France (or other countries)need to be made with other issues in mind if sensible conclusions are to be made about accident records. Level and attitude to training seems an important variable.

Good points. There are good lessons to learn from the French model (Speleo Secours Francais's training and structure being one such example) but the UK "happy-go-lucky", "take a candle and find out for yourself" mindset is too prevalent and almost carved in stone. Perhaps it's our slightly eccentric "misadventurous" approach which plants the seeds for avoidable accidents? - that, and the shocking realisation that if one-third of the populace can't read or write and have an IQ less than 60 it's small wonder that people under their tutelage get hurt. Rant over.

 

[Melanie lloyd]

Andy Sparrow wrote:whose lives may be ruined because British cavers failed to recognise a problem and do something about it.

Really, Andy, does the discussion have to degenerate into these emotive generalisations?

Langcliff, I must say your remark sounds a bit nasty to me though i could be wrong. Am I? If I am then i appologise. Emotive or not, Andy is genuine in his concern for the safty of cavers. How would you have phrased it?

I can see that you enjoy constructive discussion though so why not discuss some of the other points Andy has raised in his post?

 

[kay]

Perhaps if ALL aspirant UK cavers were trained to a specific level (thereby reducing the risks inherent in using items like Petzl Stops) before they were allowed underground (similar to the Belgium system, I think?) then preventable accidents would indeed be significantly reduced.

As a horizontal-only caver who is petrified of doing anything at any sort of height where I'm relying on me to keep myself safe (I'm OK if I'm dangling from a rope which someone else is controlling), I would love to be able to take some sort of course with a defined syllabus (the caving cequivalent of the European Computer Driving Licence). Maybe there is some such, and I just don't know about it?

 

[langcliffe]

Langcliff, I must say your remark sounds a bit nasty to me though i could be wrong. Am I? If I am then i appologise. Emotive or not, Andy is genuine in his concern for the safty of cavers. How would you have phrased it?

It wasn't intended to be nasty, and re-reading the post, I am somewhat surprised that it could be interpreted as such. I was simply objecting to Andy cheapening his otherwise well-reasoned and well-articulated arguments with the statement I quoted. I have never questioned his concern for the safety of cavers.

I can see that you enjoy constructive discussion though so why not discuss some of the other points Andy has raised in his post?

I didn't do so, because I had already made clear what my views were in a previous post. I have never believed that repetition is the most persuasive of discussion techniques.

 

[hrock]

well i thing the proble with a permit to cave is the admin.
and what happes when some one gose caving once in a blue moon.

it sohuld be the responsablierty of the club or individule how introduses some one to caving to teach them well and if they cant then ask about and people would help.

 

[mudmonkey]

Andy - to repeat my question. What proportion of caving abseils involve stops and what proportion of loss-of-control incidents? Without both pieces of information (or at least an idea of them) the figure quoted is meaningless.

Agree clutch-and-plummet is a risk but compare this to the advantages gained by a competent user from the versatility (as per TT's post). Maybe better to learn on non-Stop descenders and then move across?

 

[jasonbirder]

As an absolute novice to both caving and to SRT i`m a little bit nervous of commenting on this as I`m sure everyone has far more experience and knowledge to bring to bear on the subject - but from a beginners perspective I have two thoughts -

wouldn`t

Perhaps if ALL aspirant UK cavers were trained to a specific level (thereby reducing the risks inherent in using items like Petzl Stops) before they were allowed underground

Put lots of people off - I know it would have discouraged me from getting involved and surely the sport needs as much new blood as possible...

Secondly on "clutch and plummet" type accidents - how prevelent are they? It actually seems quite counter intuitive to me - to grip for dear life - I actually find it quite a bind holding the handle on a stop in on descents...(or am I just lazy!!!)

 

[cap n chris]

Don't worry about the "licence to cave" idea putting lots of people off `cos it's never going to happen.

Secondly, Jasonbirder, your expression about the Petzl Stop being "counter intuitive" rings a bell - it's been one of Andy's observations about the device for a long while. Also, you're not alone - I find holding the handle on a Stop for any length of time quite fatiguing and ultimately painful.