Quarry Dean Farm Website

[hole_in_the_rock]

Bubba,
thank you for the compliment. It is a pity that we did not "meet" under dfferent circumstances, as then you might have got to know me better than just snidey. Down right offensive maybe, but snidiest, phew that's some tag.

it was my responsibilty to make sure as many people as possible knew of the situation at Quarry Dean.

It is my responsibility too, to make sure that people know that this responsibility is not given to you by the owners,but something you or your club have elected to do, against the express wishes of the owners.

When people contact me about access to Quarry Dean, I merely tell them that it is not permitted, by order of the owners.

Again, you were not asked to do this and it's not very factual either. Access is being considered for genuine people who do not belong to WCMS.

I have no reason to do any more or less than that.

You had no reason to mislead them in the first place, and no valid reason for pretending to be the contact point for QDF access. If the land was a person you would be it's stalker.

Then it turns out that these people may not even OWN the place...LOL

That's news to me,and one of the current owners. Two people equally own the land, one is alive and known, the other sadly passed away earlier this year, and their share will pass on to another family member, once his will is proved and the estate has gone to probate. If from this you can conclude that it is not owned by the owners, then you really should give up whatever is scrambling your brain.

Luckily you are unikely to get barred, as the owners allow the mentally challenged access when accompanied by responsible adults. Unfortunately there aren't too many of those around these days.

QDF is not boring when your club is charging people good money to access what has always been free to those who ask the owners. It gets positively exciting when club funds allow the purchase of new equipment, which could not have been afforded without the numerous "mandatory donations/charges". The problem comes when the owners discover what is really going on and object in a way that lets everyone know.

Maybe it's not just a trespass issue, but something more sinister. Maybe if they had kept to the only agreement ever given between an owner ( MW Harrison ) and Unit2 (which was 3 visits per year) and had not increased their frequency to 3 times a week then the matter would not have become public knowledge.

Taking a few cookies is one thing, but taking and selling the contents of the jar is another.

 

[Peter Burgess]

The responsibilities one holds when one is elected onto the committee of a caving club are vested by the members and not by anyone outside the club. The responsibility of advising on matters of access, amongst other things is something I am happy to do on behalf of our membership. As long as they are happy for me to do this, then I am pleased to go on doing it.

[spelling correction]

 

[Jagman]

Despite the barage of abuse I'm sure I'm about to face I actually find myself quite sympathetic to Hole in the Rocks point of view on this one.
Particularly interesting when you look at the contoversy over the last couple of years that has raged backwards and forwards between Caving Club types and non Club people.
I, and others, have been accused more times than I can remember of causing this type of problem with Landowners by not being responsible and buying insurance/ club membership.

If a "renegade" caver had caused these kind of problems the majority of posters on this thread would be baying for blood, when its a club that causes it the Landowner is blamed.....

The majority of underground types that I know quietly go about their business without causing any offence, I would think that perhaps some of those concerned should reflect upon their comments and actions and gracefully refrain from further comment

 

[AndyF]

It's just an old mine for Chrissake, put a gate on it. Forget it. Problem solved. Move on with your life..

If you need a survey, spend £2k and have one done. Sorted. Solved. The end.

 

[Peter Burgess]

when its a club that causes it the Landowner is blamed.....

Jagman.

Believe it or not, I can actually understand your point of view, as I can fully appreciate why some cavers feel more comfortable outside the membership of a club.

However, perhaps you would like to present your evidence to the forum as to why you are sure that a club has caused these problems. What is it that a club has done to 'cause' the problem? If you have no evidence, or would like to know more background to the situation, you could always try contacting the people involved. We have had a lot of opinion expressed here and elsewhere, and many claims. It is very easy to blame people for situations, but it only needs a bit more effort to do some research to establish a clearer picture.

Making claims about what this or that person or club has done is easy when it is done anonymously, and I also fully understand why some forum members are more comfortable hiding their identity. If you are prepared to contact individuals openly, you may be surprised to discover what information comes to light.

You know my name. It isn't difficult to find out how to contact me.

 

[darkplaces]

Problem is so much has been posted its hard to know who was to blame. I wont rely on any posts here to choose who was at fault as everyone posting would have had a different view of what happened, which I suspect was a simple mistake not fixed early that has grown into a big pile of poo.

Jagman has a point if a non cave club person caused this fuss, ooo the self-righteousnesses would be oooozing from every post. Fact is regardless of who is at fault, the relationship between the two has failed making both subject to blame. Nobody is a winner so everyone looses. I am not going to blame the club or owner as I dont know the facts all I see is that everyone looses out.

AndyF is right we do need to move on. I would prefer access. The owner maybe have no 'legal' right to a free survey I dont know but we know life is grey's so I would have thought a free survey would have been a nice way of thanking the owner for access to his/her/its land. I do this with photos I produce.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I do this with photos I produce.

Yes, this is a good thing to do, and one which has been appreciated when we have done the same.

Photos of a sand mine adorned the walls of a pub in Reigate after they had been given to the landlord by grateful cavers. Unfortunately, they disappeared when the pub was taken into new ownership.

 

[hole_in_the_rock]

Problem is so much has been posted its hard to know who was to blame. I wont rely on any posts here to choose who was at fault as everyone posting would have had a different view of what happened, which I suspect was a simple mistake not fixed early that has grown into a big pile of poo.

Jagman has a point if a non cave club person caused this fuss, ooo the self-righteousnesses would be oooozing from every post. Fact is regardless of who is at fault, the relationship between the two has failed making both subject to blame. Nobody is a winner so everyone looses. I am not going to blame the club or owner as I dont know the facts all I see is that everyone looses out.

AndyF is right we do need to move on. I would prefer access. The owner maybe have no 'legal' right to a free survey I dont know but we know life is grey's so I would have thought a free survey would have been a nice way of thanking the owner for access to his/her/its land. I do this with photos I produce.

It has grown into a huge pile, (resists the temptation to comment further on Peter's pile of poo), and it all started off when one of the elderly owners had a letter from Peter Burgess, stating how WCMS had been keeping a casual eye on the property, and informing him of an access shaft that they built, which he had never given permission for.
Then it started growing, and people were assigned to discover the extent of WCMS using the land.
14 years of use was discovered, none of which the owner had consented to.
The mines were sealed and notices put up refusing access, but giving a contact phone number. Within 24hours of placing the signs they had been removed. One WCMS member admitted taking one sign, as he had no way to take the phone number down. This member, who gave his name, and is known as one of the trespassers who caused damage to this historcal area, was told that he would never be allowed back on the land, and that the owners wanted to know more details of the digging he had been doing without permission.
This WCMS member refused to give any details, but started phoning a greiving widow hassling to be allowed to carry on his illegal excavations.
He then stated hassling one of the sons for access, and once again refused to give details of what excavations he had already done. I have seen the emails from him, so I know it's true.

The day after the owner and sons locked up the mines, groups of children arrived to go caving. And yet more damage was done as people tried to force their way into the mines. And it's still going on over a year after WCMS were told to stay away. When people can not access the locked entrances they use nearby Highways Agency accesses, or neighbourig access on other owners lands. The HA will be putting a stop to people using their access entrances, and will be taking steps to get the damage that has been done to their property repaired. They may even force closure of neaby entrances too (as a matter of safety).
Did I say how WCMS members have been undermining the motorway groutings to try to open passageways on the HA land that were filled in for sublic safety reasons? It's all in the WCMS newsletters.


AndyF, who pays for all the damage before they forget about it and walk away? Should the owners? Even if they knew nothing of the activities? And when the Highways Agency want the damage repaired, who should pay? Taxpayers or the peope who did the damage?

Darkplaces, the owners do have legal rights to allow people on and under their land, it's WCMS that have never had this privillage. As ownership has changed following a death, the new owner will have to be proved through any will and through probate (the full legal process for such ownership changes after death occurs). If you are in any doubt about the owners legality to allow you access, send them an email. They are quite nice people despite what has happened betwen them and WCMS.


And the icing on the cake is:
some of the visitors knew that the owners needed to give them written permision, but used WCMS as a short cut to avoid waiting for that permission. Somehow WCMS convinced others that they had a right to do as they wished at QDF

I saw a mention of surveys. I have surveys, older ones and some of the newest ones available. I also have the motorway borehole surveys, ariel surveys, geophysic surveys, and an OS GPS survey. Old library maps, and a high sugar drink in case of emergencies. The survey bit was dealt with long ago. Did I mention the early photos of inside the mines? I have some of those too! Might be good for a comparrison of how it was left and how it is now that Peter and Co have abused it for years.

Any conservationists here?
Have you read the Scouts account of how they dragged tables and chairs through the mines on the way to their underground Christmas party? A quick google of "scouts Merstham Christmas" without the" brings you info on how this area (does it have a SSSI now or just a site of historical interest?) was abused on this occasion.
The unauthorised WCMS alcohol fuelled Christmas and New Years party is a different matter.

Any Highways Workers here?
What does it cost to make a motorway safe if the HA shoud decide to take action against the diggers on their land? £5million? £10 million? (there goes the insurance underwriters, or premiums will go sky high).

Osama, are they your friends digging?

To sum up, I am snidey, offensive and down right rude for a reason, it's tha b4st4rd tourettes syndrome you %**!&^*** :wink: . The situations that WCMS have caused/allowed/instigated reflect badly on the explorer community and will have big repercussions for us all, not just people at QDF. If the HA force closure of the entrances around their land, most of the series of mines will become inaccessable, and a historical part of Surrey lost forever. To some this will not be a problem, it would certainly stop further exploitation of the area, but why should everyone else suffer?

Anyone know where the artefacts have disappeared to?
I was looking at a ledger of the known artefacts at QDF, and the positions they were found. Some are missing, and not where they were last known to have been. Although they are not of great value, they belong to the land and the people who own that land. Could they be given back to the owners please?


I am finished for a short while now, though I could write a book about the things that have gone on.

Let your conscience be your guide :roll:

 

[Peter Burgess]

As I said, if anyone wants to know some facts about the situation, it isn't difficult to contact me. Its an open invitation.

 

[jasonbirder]

Blimey...its not complicated is it...
If the landowners want to ban access then they can do so...If they want to allow access either do so freely...or ask people to call at the farm for permission & leave a small trespass fee or gate it and make people write for a key...
No need to make a big issue is there...
Or am I being a little niave?

 

[Peter Burgess]

To sum up, I am snidey, offensive and down right rude for a reason, it's tha b4st4rd tourettes syndrome

If HITR has this condition, it explains a lot about the way he presents himself. I know a certain amount about some of the personality disorders that are sometimes associated with this unfortunate condition. One thing that sufferers and non-sufferers should be aware of is that having personality problems should never be used as an excuse for bad behaviour and causing offence. It can explain it but cannot excuse it.

If HITR does not have this condition, but is making a joke of it, then the joke might be considered offensive by people who do truly suffer.

Either way, it may tell us a lot about the veracity of HITR's claims. Once more, a sober and factual account of this business is there for any further people who are the slightest bit interested, and who contact me.

 

[hole_in_the_rock]

To sum up, I am snidey, offensive and down right rude for a reason, it's tha b4st4rd tourettes syndrome

Once more, a sober and factual account of this business is there for any further people who are the slightest bit interested, and who contact me.

Take this as contact, and get on with explaining to everyone why you and your mates used QDF as you did. You certainly have not ever expained to the legal owners, so put you money where your mouth is and tell us all what you all did and why.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I think that the only person who is really qualified to tell us what the purpose of this forum is, and how we should use it, is the administrator.

OK, well, I didn't expect HITR to try to contact me. Looks like he'll have to stay out of the picture.

 

[danthecavingman]

I didn't want to get into this any further, as personally I have no interest in the mines concerned.

However, at last Hole In The Rock has actually made it fairly plain what all the uproar is about and why the landowners at QDF are feeling the way they do. If what has been said in that post is true then fair enough. The cavers involved obviously need to enter into some sort of reasonable discussion and try to get an acceptable access agreement. At the end of the day, access to caves / mines IS controlled by the landowner and if he / she doesn't want to give permission then tough, that IS their right. There are several interesting dig sites in Derbyshire that I would love to play around in but the owners of the land have stated quite clearly that they do not want the hassle of cavers messing about on their property. While that may sound narrow minded to us, we have to respect their wishes. In some cases there are farmers who were asked about access and refused it. The cavers then went and started digging secretly, got caught and upset the farmer even further, thus eliminating any chance of ever getting the farmer on side and negotiating something.

Without wanting to sound naive or sarcastic or patronising or anything else for that matter, why don't the parties involved here sit down, hold their breath, count to ten and try and square things reasonably.

Whatever happens though, if QDF don't want cavers on their land anymore then stirring up the situation ain't gonna help!

There you go, I've said my bit. I've got beer and curry to go to.

Dan.

 

[Peter Burgess]

If what has been said in that post is true then fair enough

I'm very glad you qualified your statements, Dan.

Access to sites gets removed at different places at regular intervals. Sometimes this is temporary, and sometimes it's long term. Look at Sludge Pit and Nine Barrows Swallet for example. Its frustrating, but only the most irresponsible of cavers show no respect to a landowner's decision to close a site, or restrict access to certain groups or individuals.

The issue that is really at stake is the distribution of false accusations and distortions of fact, which are attempts at sullying the name of a society.

 

[darkplaces]

look, a hamster running away from a can of worms with worms everywhere wriggling about....:shock:

I didnt mean to open it, honest it just fell apart in my paws!

Blimy, this one needs mediation rather then slashing each other in public. I'm sure each side has a differant view of what happened and we have gone though this topic before so it might be worth returning the topic, on topic and just post any updates about the website. Like if anyone is banned or authorized.

I recomend to the people who allow access a written aggreement with a general description of what will be done is drawn up for each visit. It could be a crude as a set of tick boxes.
[ ] digging, [ ] SRT, [ ] New passage Exploration, [ ] photos, [ ] photos provided in kind after trip.

Something like that so everyone knows were they stand. Make it simple so it gets used, thats the trick, so many people make these things so complex and try to catch every posable option.

 

[Peter Burgess]

You certainly have not ever expained to the legal owners,

HITR is not one of the legal owners.

 

[cap n chris]

It has already been pointed out that at present the legal owners are not determined, pending the outcome of probate.

Despite this, I find it odd that there is a notion for access permission to be sought (direct to the owners) on each and every occasion; I do not know of any other site where this is the case - for starters, the owners would get pretty fed up with all the correspondence.

Usually a landowner decides whether or not they are happy to allow visitors; once this is established they can decide to adopt a goodwill payment system or perhaps stipulate other conditions such as no late night visits, parking in specific places, keeping noise to a minimum etc..

In some cases a leader system is put in place and/or a management committee which oversees the distribution/collection of permits/fees and ensures the bona fides of visitors.

I believe there is a big difference between people visiting a site on the basis of "visit until you're told not to" rather than "let's ask just in case we need to". Reading between the lines it appears that WCMS have been following an established route and also overseeing things (to avoid annoying the landowners) only to find that this has inadvertently annoyed the landowners who now seem happy to deal with a potential deluge of requests to do what has been done for decades.

Seems like a job creation scheme to me.

 

[Peter Burgess]

WCMS received three letters last year, from the legal representatives of one of the owners of the land at Quarry Dean Farm. The contents of those three letters did not include any request for details of activities on the site since 1991.

Hole in the Rock. Please advise the owners who you apparently represent to write directly to my society. It is neither your business nor mine to discuss matters of concern between the two parties on a public forum. As you are not one of the owners, then you may be provided with any response at the discretion of the owners, but not via this forum. Were your accusations of misdeeds true, then it is certainly a totally inappropriate place for such a discussion.

I would, however, suggest that it would be a good idea to wait until the matter of the late John Harrison's affairs has been addressed and finalised. Then, at least, one complicating factor will be out of the equation.

This is your opportunity to do something beneficial for the owners.

I suggest you take it.

This is my last and final contribution to this matter on this forum.

 

[Jagman]

Hole in the Rock, I take it in one way or another you do represent direct comment from the site owners?
Knowing neither yourself or Peter Burgess personally I do not presume to comment on the integrity of either party in this sorry mess :shock: but given the current state of affairs I cannot see any prospect of the damage being rectified.
If either party feels inclined to tell me their story I would be interested but I also recognise its none of my damn business either
I do feel that loss of all access to this site is more than a little unfortunate but entirely understandable.
I cant speak for the way things work down that end of the country but up here landowners and their representetives work on a simple nod and a little courtesy, caving clubs are heavily frowned upon by many landowners but discrete exploration is happily accepted (if viewed as a little eccentric)
It is apparent that WCMS are off the Christmas Card list and whatever the ins and outs of it then thats just the way things are. Insurance/club membership advocates constantly remind me that non membership rules me out of visting various sites around the country, by the same argument those concerned will simply now have to accept that the opposite applies in this case.
Regardless of who said or did what its to late now.
Sanctimonious? me? not likely, if it was my back yard I would have been slipping in and out of the place at will, preferably with a nod from the owner and nobody would have ever known I was there, no damage, no missing/misplaced artifacts. Just the odd bootprint and whiff of cigarette smoke :roll: