Re: New Design caving suit.

[cap n chris]

Really ought to start a new thread, I guess, .... the oversuit ideas I had last year became reality and this has existed as a field trial product since April and the live version is now in stock (PM me).

this new thread is an offshoot from this earlier thread: http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11475.0

.....

It's called the Infra Red Exped suit and it ticks a LOT of the boxes mentioned by N thingy N (see link above, response No.15).

Pic: Ed Waters 2010, Andalucia

* Knee pads worn beneath suit so they stay in place (if you prefer to wear knee/elbow pads externally there's presently no law against it!).
* Harness and (most of) chest strap worn beneath suit so they do not snag or wear out from abrasion.
* Heavy duty cordura oversuit, manufactured by Warmbac (proven product and process).
* Reinforced rear seam (as per standard).
* WIDE velcro front fastening (not zipped).
* FIVE POCKETS:-
- one internal (Ortlieb personal first aid kit)
-  one on each upper arm - Traxion/Protraxion/survival bag/knife etc.)
- one on each forearm for rigging spanner, knife, surveying pen/pencil
* Neoprene cuffs.
* FOUR external karabiner clip-in loops for cowstails (2 x 2 either side), hand jammer etc..
* Specifically designed to minimise snagging and wear and tear to your SRT rig.
* Accepts Torse chest strap, traditional chest strap and more.
* As used in Eastern Europe, Matienzo, Southern Spain and elsewhere. Five field trial suits are providing additional feedback.
* ?79.
In stock, M, M+, L & XL. P&P extra. Caver post is an option.

Increase your harness life expectancy by several years!
"Wear out the suit, not your gear".

If you would like to purchase an oversuit just PM me.   

 

[carabeener]

Typical, I just bought a new oversuit last week.  This would have definately have been an option! :

 

[n?π]

Alas, I too hav just replaced my suit. Would have been tempted with this one,  soooo many pockets!

 

[Rob]

...* Harness and (most of) chest strap worn beneath suit so they do not snag or wear out from abrasion...

Chris, it looks interesting. However isn't it flawed by the fact that harnesses wear slower, and are cheaper, than oversuits?

 

[El Agreb]

...* Harness and (most of) chest strap worn beneath suit so they do not snag or wear out from abrasion...

Chris, it looks interesting. However isn't it flawed by the fact that harnesses wear slower, and are cheaper, than oversuits?

It is good to see different concepts being tried but this seems really to be designed with a mind to increase the sales of suits by ensuring they wear out faster. Hard items in pockets have always increased the damage at those points and to have buckles and stiff tapes beneath the material can only accelerate wear. It certainly does protect the harness but as Rob points out should that be a criteria in a suit

Tried a similar design a couple of decades ago for a big painting job to protect harnesses from paint and stuff and it does work well for that but found it generally unsuitable underground except for the simplest trips.
The almost impossible 'faff' of removing the harness when a constriction necessitates beggars belief.

 

[AndyF]

mmmm - looks a nightmare to to put on, threading the harness.

Lots of trips I don't wear a harness until needed, and take it off when not required. I wouldn't want to wear a harness for a walk-in for example. I would never use that feature myslef.

Wear out your suit not your gear? My suit IS gear.... Suit ?79 Harness ?45 

Neoprene cuffs reduce circulation and make your hands colder.

Its good to see some innovation, but I'm afraid this wouldn't cut it for me personally...

 

[cap n chris]

Horses for courses. The suit was the considered outcome from experiencing lots of frustration on an expedition in a tight, rippy cave which ended up ruining an oversuit and a harness, total cost around ?120 - plus the wasted energy of having to un-snag myself on a regular basis. Hence the idea of being able to slink your way through tight grabby stuff by massively reducing the amount of externally worn kit and simultaneously protecting at least some of the (expensive) gear we wear.

Granted, your oversuit IS gear and, yes, they cost more than a harness... but wrecking a suit, rather than a suit and a harness, is unarguably cheaper! 

BTW this suit wears out no faster than any other Warmbac suit. It is NOT designed to wear out *fast*. 

Granted, too, there is a degree of faff putting it on but, depending on the type of caving you're about to engage in, the marginally increased time (although I still get kitted up quicker than club cavers with their traditional rig... lol!) pays dividends. If you're only doing some open passage/straightforward sports caving then wear your SRT kit on the outside... but if you're approaching something tight which in the past may have necessitated removing your harness you'll find you can get through it without even noticing you've got a harness on.

Wear points on the suit don't happen - the only metal parts worn beneath the suit are the buckles and the suit has sufficient movement that it is not in permanent contact with them and hence to date no such problem has arisen with the suits.

Gentlemen!... It's not even beginning to be the ultimate, go anywhere, do anything caver's oversuit - it's trip-specific and therefore it has limited appeal. No problem with that... It's a suit for roped expeditionary use or stupidtight SRT (Thrupe Lane Swallet being a splendid example of where it shines and wins hands down, also places like Longwood).  8)

For SRT in tight or sharp caves it's an absolute winner. My *old*  harness still looks brand new.

It's not waterproof (being cordura) so it won't be suited to cold/wet caves (anywhere north of south, then) but has mostly been used overseas where the weather's better, oh, and Matienzo, where it isn't. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

I was going to say there is nothing to stop you putting your harness on outside this suit if that's what you want. And now I have said it.

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed, Peter. The design provides options for your kit set-up, depending on the trip(s) you're about to do.

At base it's a standard priced Warmbac suit but with lots of extra slots, pockets and clip-in loops: if you decide to wear your SRT in the traditional way, it is still ideal for temperate climate rigging, sports trips, surveying etc., simply because of the additional convenient stowing spaces.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Any further helpful comments will require a commission on any resulting sales.

 

[graham]

Any further helpful comments will require a commission on any resulting sales.

further? 

 

[Bob G]

Really ought to start a new thread, I guess, .... the oversuit ideas I had last year became reality and this has existed as a field trial product since April and the live version is now in stock (PM me). :

In 'For Sale / Wanted', maybe?

 

[cap n chris]

Made this little demo/explanatory video:

infra_film1.avi

 

[me]

Have I surmised correctly you attach your cows-tails to the oversuit?

That is you can hang over a bl***y great pitch attached to a bit of material  :-\

I think my brain will need some reconditioning to accept that  :doubt:

 

[Stupot]

Only for storage, i.e. there is a material loop on the side of the suit as the harness loops are hidden under the suit.

Does that make sense ?

Stu.

 

[me]

Pheew  yes thank you

 

[droid]

Solution in search of a problem?

 

[potholer]

What's the score with carrying things like personal bags, which would typically be attached to harness belt loops?
Thinking of vertical caves, if carrying tackle bags out, I often attach the haul cord(s) to the central maillon, and clip the bag top(s) to the harness side loops. Saves a lot of faffing, and can work well in a decent variety of passage.

I guess for something like bolting up or down, it'd be possible to wear a decent chest harness and hang the drill, etc off that, but I'd wonder about weight-carrying possibilities when prussiking.
Does the suit/harness arrangement give any alternative to just hanging things directly off and below the central maillon if they're at all heavy or bulky?

 

[cap n chris]

Solution in search of a problem?

Don't get it.

It's a solution to known problems, as outlined in (relatively) comprehensive detail earlier in this thread. Do keep up at the back. I've got crayons if you think it might help. 

 

[cap n chris]

What's the score with carrying things like personal bags, which would typically be attached to harness belt loops?
Thinking of vertical caves, if carrying tackle bags out, I often attach the haul cord(s) to the central maillon, and clip the bag top(s) to the harness side loops. Saves a lot of faffing, and can work well in a decent variety of passage.

I guess for something like bolting up or down, it'd be possible to wear a decent chest harness and hang the drill, etc off that, but I'd wonder about weight-carrying possibilities when prussiking.
Does the suit/harness arrangement give any alternative to just hanging things directly off and below the central maillon if they're at all heavy or bulky?

Seems like several good points being raised here: haul cords (and anything you wish) can still be clipped to the central maillon; if you're looking to clip stuff which isn't particularly heavy (the sort of thing which traditionally might be clipped to the side of your harness on the small loops thereon) then there are two clip-in loops in each side of the suit (for left or right handed cowstails clipping). Routinely, using the long cowstail as a haul/drag cord works well.

If you're intending to progress on rope with something bulky/heavy and are free hanging then a bandolier/sling works a treat. In narrow confines this is a non-issue since you wouldn't be attempting to progress like that.

If by "personal bag" you mean something like the regional MGB (Mendip Gay Bag), then that should be AOK clipped to one of the side loops.

If you're doing spacious free-hanging stuff like bolting then I'd be minded to wear something like an MTDE riggers' chest harness externally and clip bits on that (or just a couple of sling bandoliers to serve the same purpose). Remember: horses for courses.

Also remember: it's not a substitute for PVC oversuits which are eminently fit for purpose in wet/cold vertical systems Ooop Noorth.

I hope this has answered your queries but if I missed something just say and I'll try and help.