SRT training in Yorkshire Dales

[Hammy]

you only need to have done the Level 2 training in order to attend CIC training, you do not need to be assessed and pass at Level 2; having completed the CIC training you do not need to do any assessments at all

You had better be quick if you want to do CIC training without Level 2 Assessment, and by default Level One also. There are moves afoot to make this a prerequisite, like it or lump it!

 

[cap n chris]

Poor training is often more dangerous than no training.  Teaching yourself to use a Stop is fine if approached the right way.  Refer to Petzl instructions or Speleo-Vertical for basic threading and operation. If you start by sitting in a harness and abseiling the 2 or so feet to the ground you can't go far wrong.  Then try standing on a chair.  Repeat about 20 times and then try stopping and locking-off.  Repeat agan, and again.  Then thread with your eyes closed.      Then try hanging a rope in a tree and practising prusik/abseil changeovers, moving progressively higher and higher. 

Fully agreed.

However, the above suggested progression isn't in the Petzl instructions or Speleo-Vertical.

 

[ian.p]

bit late to this thread ah well.
i did an LCLA level 1 training course last year without the assesment which i wouldnt of been alowed to do anyway cos youve got to be 18. i had two main reasons for doing this the first i wanted to see if there was anything i hadnt learnt that might be usefull to me and the secound was that as i have been doing an increasing amount of secounding and leading with novice small people i wanted some form of recognised training so that if i cocked up underground and somone got injerd the people runing the camp could at least point out that i should know what im doing. i did the course for ?50 and learnt a number of usefull things though i did know most of it already the bit on flood risk assesment was particularly usefull.
i would say LCLA courses are good things for non profesional cavers but they arent superior to other forms of training mearly one resource that can be used posibly to learn things you might not learn in a club like flood risk.
as for prusic loops i think theyre wonderfull things and a lot cheaper than a spare jammer
im not convinced about learning SRT on your own i taught my self how to prusic on knots and it took me ages to get from near zero knowledge to working out how to prusick in some sembelance of comfort +safty(the first lesson i learnt was that it isnt posibal to prusic with only a belay belt!) i was tought the basics of SRT and thus avoided shambling about for several months slowly working out how to do it properly at the very least id say you need to check with somone competent that what your doings safe (i didnt find out that it wasnt a good idea to use shoelaces as prusic loops till after id used them to climb the twenty (i should point out beforre i start sounding realy thick that they were quite good quality round ones and i had used them in trees quite a few times))

 

[Downer]

A Prusik (a metre or so of around 6mm cord tied in a loop) loop is a very handy thing to have with you at all times. As well as protecting descents, as described above, you could use it to replace a jammer when pusiking (new where did  that name come from ) and even hang it around your neck under your oversuit with a knife attached (which you should also have ready whenever you are involved with SRT), as I do!

I know I'm going to regret this but what's the knife for?

Obviously, cutting the rope.

Hopefully intentionally and usually because you need to cut the rope during a mid-rope rescue, etc.

You may be happy to hear that although knives are part of SRT kit, they are a last recourse for cutting rope, there being a far safer and more controllable method available but, as part of CIC training, club cavers won't need to know about it. 

[Blank stare]
I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about or even whether you are making some kind of in-joke. Like I said, I knew I'd regret asking.

 

[ian.p]

it is some times nesersey to cut the rope inorder to affect some forms of srt rescue therfore a nife is part of recomended srt kit for example if a caver is stuck on rope and you are at the top of the pitch it may be easier rather than atempting a mid rope pick off to atach a secound rope to the pit rope using a jammer cut the pit rope behind the jammer and lower them of using the extrer rope. they wernt winding you up
im not sure what the easier safer options chris is refering to are the only others listed in ACT are using paracord or a carbide flame one takes a long time and the other sounds rather more dangeros than a nife.

 

[Downer]

it is some times nesersey to cut the rope inorder to affect some forms of srt rescue therfore a nife is part of recomended srt kit for example if a caver is stuck on rope and you are at the top of the pitch it may be easier rather than atempting a mid rope pick off to atach a secound rope to the pit rope using a jammer cut the pit rope behind the jammer and lower them of using the extrer rope. they wernt winding you up

It's the term "recommended" or "part of SRT kit" that had me doubtful. They tend to imply that most SRT users ought to be competent to do a mid-rope rescue. I wonder if that's realistic?

im not sure what the easier safer options chris is refering to are the only others listed in ACT are using paracord or a carbide flame one takes a long time and the other sounds rather more dangeros than a nife.

Ah yes, the carbide flame - I'm sure that's exactly what he had in mind  

 

[Hughie]

I taught myself to srt, along with a friend who'd had a little previous experience. We acquired some rope and rigged one of our sheds (quite a large shed - we can tip lorries in it). We had several drops, including knots, loops and linked with a tyrolean traverse.
Some of the knots may have not been to the purists satisfaction, but we certainly made sure they wouldn't come undone.
Several hours passed learning knot passes, basic up and down, what happens when you ram a jammer up against a knot and try and unload it.
Just basic stuff. No problem. Just practise and common sense.

Did a couple of caves using srt, but don't really enjoy it. It's a means to an end that I really don't see the need for professional training. Rigging skills maybe.

Did Castle's Hairy Ring - piece of proverbial wee wee (or should that be Castle's Traverse?)

I also feel that it is not within a clubs remit to offer training, but perhaps offer advice and point members in the direction of someone who can offer qualified training, should it be required.

 

[Geoff R]

[Blank stare]
I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about or even whether you are making some kind of in-joke. Like I said, I knew I'd regret asking.

ian.p is right
this is absolutely no joke. A knife (and whistle) easily accessable while you are "on rope" is standard SRT kit.
Anything from jammed hair in a Stop to the worst possible case of an emergency pick-off of someone stuck unconscious may require a knife to cut the main SRT rope in the appropriate place in the right circumstance. This needs careful practice "above ground" in controlled circumstances and it is an interesting exercise to do in a controlled way with a bit of old SRT rope.

see also    www.suspensiontrauma.info

Im not suggesting everyone in a SRT group could make an emergency rescue of some sort but for sure everyone should aspire to this.

you may need the knife for a simple hair jam - not my problem as Im nearly bald ! 





   

 

[Downer]

you may need the knife for a simple hair jam - not my problem as Im nearly bald !    

In that case it's probably a good idea in other situations. In fact I think I'll hang a knife by the bathroom extractor fan... try not to imagine it.

 

[Dep]

I mean that individuals within a club should be free (and perhaps even actively encouraged) to go get themselves trained by a third party professional.

But that the club itself should not seek to provide formal training as this requires them to have an instructor, certification, documentation, insurance, comply with legislation, bureaucracy, liability, yada yada yada...

I'm not sure it is your intention but as written it seems that you recommend that clubs should not provide training.

Clubs should provide training to their members. It is one of their primary functions.

More than that they have a responsibility to provide training. One could argue that they are negligent if they failed to provide training.

Not quite what I meant (or said) at all...

I agree that all clubs should provide encourage safe/best-practiceadvice, info, peer-practice and so on - but not to provide formalised training which requires someone with the required certification (without which it is simply peer-practice)

...One could argue that they are negligent if they failed to provide training.

No - because there is no requirement for them to do so.
If there was we would all be having to do it!

Basically they way it is done now in what seems to be the majority of clubs is just about right - people learn what they need to know from their fellow cavers, with peer-reviewed best practice, certainly safe practice.

I'll say it again: If it ain't broke...

 

[Dep]

More than that they have a responsibility to provide training.

I should have said "More than that they have a responsibility to provide access to training."

Don't want to force anyone. It is a free world after all.

Aha - I didn't see that at first - a slight change to my above response then:

Providing access to training is as simple as giving a phone number or web address for the trainer...
It is almost inconceivable that anyone asking this question wouldn't get lots of suggestion, recommendations and help, or that a group of people from the club might band together to pay for a training day - for example with AndyS - indeed I know people from our club have done just that.
All that is perfectly laudable.

But not the club undertaking to provide the training themselves which is the whole point of this debate...

 

[Hammy]

I think it is worth pointing out that some people who hold CIC provide both formal (ie paid) and informal (unpaid) training to everyone who they ever go caving with. They don't just necessarily do it for the money, but for the greater good of the sport/pastime.

It is all about promoting  an approach to caving that is considered rather than blundered into.

As I have said before by my experience clubs often provide the blundering approach.

SRT can be at a basic level, assuming nothing will go wrong, or rather more considered when all sorts of problems may crop up.

Competent SRT practitioners are able to cope with the unexpected.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Basically they way it is done now in what seems to be the majority of clubs is just about right - people learn what they need to know from their fellow cavers, with peer-reviewed best practice, certainly safe practice.

I'll say it again: If it ain't broke...

What is broke is a lot of cavers who have sustained clutch and plummet injuries.  Unfortunately the deficiencies of club training, in the use of this device, are illustrated on a much too regular basis. 

 

[jasonbirder]

What is broke is a lot of cavers who have sustained clutch and plummet injuries.  Unfortunately the deficiencies of club training, in the use of this device, are illustrated on a much too regular basis. 

Is there any evidence either empirical r annecdotal that suggests the incidence of "Clutch & Plummet" accidents is greater amongst club trained Cavers rather than Cavers that learned SRT from a professional instructor?

 

[Andy Sparrow]

What is broke is a lot of cavers who have sustained clutch and plummet injuries.  Unfortunately the deficiencies of club training, in the use of this device, are illustrated on a much too regular basis. 

Is there any evidence either empirical r annecdotal that suggests the incidence of "Clutch & Plummet" accidents is greater amongst club trained Cavers rather than Cavers that learned SRT from a professional instructor?

I would be surprised if any these accidents have happened to  people who were trained by qualified instructors.  I'm sure the same applies to people trained by adequately experienced and skilled club cavers.  I know plenty of club cavers who are as capable as CICs, unfortunately there are too many cases of poor practice being passed between mates.  That is the area that needs 'fixing', but don't ask me how.....

 

[Downer]

unfortunately there are too many cases of poor practice being passed between mates.  That is the area that needs 'fixing', but don't ask me how.....

That was precisely my experience. The Stop is definitely counter-intuitive, not merely because of the tendancy to grab the handle when frightened but also because the controlling rope is completely slack until you press the lever with one hand and then suddenly the rope's trying to get away in the other. It takes a lot of practice to learn to deal with that. I didn't get pointed in the right direction and spent a lot of time bouncing at the top, nervously half-depressing the lever. Not being told about using a krab for extra friction was another thing.

I can't see an answer either. If you press for high-profile warning bulletins (advisory!) then, sure as eggs, someone is going to do something totally blonde "because they didn't tell me not to". Just lots of unofficial publicity, I suppose.

 

[Dep]

Basically they way it is done now in what seems to be the majority of clubs is just about right - people learn what they need to know from their fellow cavers, with peer-reviewed best practice, certainly safe practice.

I'll say it again: If it ain't broke...

What is broke is a lot of cavers who have sustained clutch and plummet injuries.  Unfortunately the deficiencies of club training, in the use of this device, are illustrated on a much too regular basis. 

Maybe...
I can't speak for other clubs but I can say this isn't an issue in our club - myself and any others who attend the regular SRT practice sessions are all well aware of this issue and make sure new people are too.

Again it all comes down to best-practice - and often this is on the advice of those who have either experience or the relevant qualifications (often having both!) If best-practice is followed clutch-and-plummet should be reduced dramatically. It's the self-taught people who have never experienced this - or who are under the mistaken impression (again through lack of experienced peer-reviewed practice I guess) that it is a brake and the sole control of descent rate - but let's not discuss this all over again, there are other threads for this.