SRT training in Yorkshire Dales

[Stu]

A Prusik (a metre or so of around 6mm cord tied in a loop) loop is a very handy thing to have with you at all times. As well as protecting descents, as described above, you could use it to replace a jammer when pusiking (new where did  that name come from ) and even hang it around your neck under your oversuit with a knife attached (which you should also have ready whenever you are involved with SRT), as I do!

I know I'm going to regret this but what's the knife for?

You know your little footer... the Oh **** one?

A knife could possibly un**** you at some point.

 

[Stu]

Without doubt... but don't you think ChrisJ is very close to shooting himself in the foot?

Err, no, not really.

Because...?

 

[Dep]

...

and indeed if a change was made from a currently "informal basis" of our SRT practice nights would a club actually be incurring increased liabilities, even with such trained person or couple of persons present ?

How can a club be considered to increase its liabilities if it has encouraged people to get trained? Surely it would be reducing its liabilities by showing such a responsible approach?

It's very simple.

Currently everything is totally informal, just friends engaging in mutual practice - the club has no liabilties whatsoever.

Start mucking around with this with qualified instructors and it all gets a) complicated and b) we now have the scope to get on the wrong side of the rukes and legislation, and there fore have a potential liability.

As I posted earlier - if it ain't broke...

We're a club of people who like going caving - we're not here to 'train' people, merely to have a good time and perhaps gain some experience in the traditional, tried and tested  'club-best-practice' way.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Without doubt... but don't you think ChrisJ is very close to shooting himself in the foot?

Err, no, not really.

Because...?

Because I don't think there is a contradiction between the two bits you highlighted, if you think about it carefully.

 

[cap n chris]

A Prusik (a metre or so of around 6mm cord tied in a loop) loop is a very handy thing to have with you at all times. As well as protecting descents, as described above, you could use it to replace a jammer when pusiking (new where did  that name come from ) and even hang it around your neck under your oversuit with a knife attached (which you should also have ready whenever you are involved with SRT), as I do!

I know I'm going to regret this but what's the knife for?

Obviously, cutting the rope.

Hopefully intentionally and usually because you need to cut the rope during a mid-rope rescue, etc.

You may be happy to hear that although knives are part of SRT kit, they are a last recourse for cutting rope, there being a far safer and more controllable method available but, as part of CIC training, club cavers won't need to know about it. 

With regard to the previous suggestion I made about considering getting some training, I just thought it might be helpful to people who are keen to learn.

BTW I would not wear a prussik around my neck. Just a little foible of mine!

 

[Stu]

I did, and do.

Gaining peer led and reviewed training, isn't the thin end of any wedge.  

 

[Dep]

...
In sure I know a Club that has the funds to take this route if the Committee and interested members so wished, for a small group.
... 

I'm sure I know a club where this has been raised before and rejected as a bad idea, and something for which the trustees do not wish to take on additional liability for no benefit whatsoever.

Why don't you formally ask the committee of your club and see what they say?

However - there is no reason why any individual person cannot organise this scheme his/herself as a private venture, any other members joining them for training will be doing so as private individuals - the club does not need to be involved and hence has no liability - all that devolves to the 'individual person' who set himself up to train people.

 

[Stu]

With regard to the previous suggestion I made about considering getting some training, I just thought it might be helpful to people who are keen to learn.

Liar... you want to corner the club training market and the live the life of luxury on the proceeds!!! We know your game.......  :ang:

 

[cap n chris]

While this smilie may be considered relevant:-

:-[


... it's not.

`Cos I'm not an LCLA trainer/assessor nor a CIC trainer/assessor and have no present plans to become such, either.

 

[Dep]

Was there not a recent post in which someone said they introduced their children to SRT using a fig-8 with lifeline? If this doesn't instill a second nature to keep the rope tensioned, nothing does.

There was - it was me.
I learnt to abseil using classic and Fig-8 - grasping that rope in my right hand is second nature - my reflex when things get sub-optimal is to hold it tighter!

 

[Dep]

...
ARGGHHH !!!

NO! NO! NO!

Want to set a precedent that training should only be given by instructors?? If lots of clubs start doing this it would become standard practice - and therefore it would be forced on the rest of us!!
...

Hear hear! 

Once again: If it ain't broke...

 

[Peter Burgess]

I did, and do.

Gaining peer led and reviewed training, isn't the thin end of any wedge.

 

"the syllabuses are excellent guides to training and standards of personal competence within the club environment"

I read this as meaning that the course syllabus is a good starting point for a framework for an informal approach to gaining experience and knowledge within a club environment, not that the course itself should provide that training. I can buy a text book for, say,  a computer course, but I don't need to do the course to make some use of the text book.

 

[cap n chris]

I can buy a text book for, say,  a computer course, but I don't need to do the course to make some use of the text book.

Petzl Stops are supplied with a pictogram showing how they are to be used; does this absolve the purchaser from a need to gain training in its use?

 

[Peter Burgess]

Don't be ridiculous Chris.

 

[Stu]

Fair point Peter but would you advocate a complete novice learning SRT like this i.e. buy book, buy rope, go caving? Probably not.

On the training there are lots of opportunity to self review and be peer reviewed. That's it's strength. Which is why BCA offer grants for clubs to put people through the training.

 

[Dep]

In case anyone thinks I am anti-training I have no issues with going on paid courses with qualified people to learn something. Recently a group from my club went off on a training day with Andy Sparrow - I would have been happy to join them, except that I was a) skint and b) had other caving commitments that weekend. (taking novices caving!)

But training should be for the individual to do  - not something organised at club level - which usually means extra work/grief/hassle for 'somebody else'...

 

[cap n chris]

Ok, Peter, you got me!

However, I still find it quite astonishing that BCA/NCA Training Committee has distilled hundreds of caver-years' of experience and honed a huge amount of excellent techniques into the LCLA/CIC schemes which would prove fabulously useful to anyone who enjoys caving and wishes to learn and use the techniques available but that club cavers are hostile towards it seemingly to a point of hysterical aversion.

 

[Stu]

But training should be for the individual to do  - not something organised at club level - which usually means extra work/grief/hassle for 'somebody else'...

Not quite sure I follow. Do you mean individuals within a club should find training options themselves or... the club trainers should organise their training themselves?

 

[Peter Burgess]

That's not what I (the BCA/NCA) suggested! Take the Stop diagram example. It makes a useful framework for illustrating how to use it, it's not an instruction manual! It can be used as a starting point, and built upon by anyone to provide help in using the gear. It's not the be all and end all of instructions.
Likewise, the syllabus, it is claimed, could provide just a useful framework for informal advice etc. I think that's what they meant, anyway.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Ok, Peter, you got me!

However, I still find it quite astonishing that BCA/NCA Training Committee has distilled hundreds of caver-years' of experience and honed a huge amount of excellent techniques into the LCLA/CIC schemes which would prove fabulously useful to anyone who enjoys caving and wishes to learn and use the techniques available but that club cavers are hostile towards it seemingly to a point of hysterical aversion.

S'not the clubs that get trained, it's the individuals. If the BCA provide excellent training grants etc then that's fine, but if a club decides to leave such matters to individuals then that is their choice. Some clubs might take a different stance - there's pros and cons either way. I can't see any hysteria here, just different opinions which some folk will give more weight to than others.