SRT training in Yorkshire Dales

[Dep]

But training should be for the individual to do  - not something organised at club level - which usually means extra work/grief/hassle for 'somebody else'...

Not quite sure I follow. Do you mean individuals within a club should find training options themselves or... the club trainers should organise their training themselves?

I mean that individuals within a club should be free (and perhaps even actively encouraged) to go get themselves trained by a third party professional.

But that the club itself should not seek to provide formal training as this requires them to have an instructor, certification, documentation, insurance, comply with legislation, bureaucracy, liability, yada yada yada...

 

[cap n chris]

.... er, so, does that mean that a club which does provide training is, by inference (and/or in the perception of those presenting themselves as trainees), doing so at some recognised level of competence?

BTW you do realise I'm rather enjoying this particular trolling session?

 

[Cookie]

I was taught SRT way back in the good old days of Whernside Manor. The course was brilliant - and I am sure I remembered 95% of what I was taught.

I began to teach others, and they probably remembered 95% of the 95% of what I remembered.

When they passed the knowledge on to the next generation, they also remembered 95% of the 95% of the 95% that I remembered.

In a few short years, we were in danger of remembering nothing of what we were originally taught.

For this reason, I would always say it is fine to begin SRT with your mates, but get some professional training as well. The 5% extra could save your life.

There are some excellent books and DVDs around that would reverse that trend.

Also comparing your mates training vs the book/DVD will give you a good idea whether your mate is trainingtastic or not.

We've run sessions based around Mr Sparrow's videos (now DVD). That way you are working to best practice and the standards are maintained yet its dead cheap cos you don't have to pay a professional.

NB I'm not advocating you learn purely from a book or DVD.

 

[Dep]

.... er, so, does that mean that a club which does provide training is, by inference (and/or in the perception of those presenting themselves as trainees), doing so at some recognised level of competence?

BTW you do realise I'm rather enjoying this particular trolling session?

Not by inference...

Formal training has to be at _some_ recognised level else it is just peer-practice/advice.

 

[Geoff R]

I mean that individuals within a club should be free (and perhaps even actively encouraged) to go get themselves trained by a third party professional.

But that the club itself should not seek to provide formal training as this requires them to have an instructor, certification, documentation, insurance, comply with legislation, bureaucracy, liability, yada yada yada...

Surely its better to have local instructor(s) encourage club members rather than have all members encouraged to dance around the country looking for their own training, or worst still not bother. 

and what about club owned SRT rope ?
Formal documentation, regular checks,  bureaucracy, certainly liability ...... when members can easily go buy their own.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

It may surprise some of you to know that in my opinion nobody needs SRT training.  The procedures of SRT are so well described in publications, DVDs etc that it is entirely feasible to teach yourself (which is what I did).  What people need is SRT practice in a safe environment where they can learn in thier own time - and that's anywhere you can a hang a rope up suffcient to get your feet off the floor.

 

[Cookie]

I mean that individuals within a club should be free (and perhaps even actively encouraged) to go get themselves trained by a third party professional.

But that the club itself should not seek to provide formal training as this requires them to have an instructor, certification, documentation, insurance, comply with legislation, bureaucracy, liability, yada yada yada...

I'm not sure it is your intention but as written it seems that you recommend that clubs should not provide training.

Clubs should provide training to their members. It is one of their primary functions.

More than that they have a responsibility to provide training. One could argue that they are negligent if they failed to provide training.

 

[Peter Burgess]

I mean that individuals within a club should be free (and perhaps even actively encouraged) to go get themselves trained by a third party professional.

But that the club itself should not seek to provide formal training as this requires them to have an instructor, certification, documentation, insurance, comply with legislation, bureaucracy, liability, yada yada yada...

I'm not sure it is your intention but as written it seems that you recommend that clubs should not provide training.

Clubs should provide training to their members. It is one of their primary functions.

More than that they have a responsibility to provide training. One could argue that they are negligent if they failed to provide training.

I think not, but it would be poor club that didn't encourage its members to cave in a safe and proper manner.

 

[Peter Burgess]

It may surprise some of you to know that in my opinion nobody needs SRT training.  The procedures of SRT are so well described in publications, DVDs etc that it is entirely feasible to teach yourself (which is what I did).  What people need is SRT practice in a safe environment where they can learn in thier own time - and that's anywhere you can a hang a rope up suffcient to get your feet off the floor.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Cookie]

More than that they have a responsibility to provide training.

I should have said "More than that they have a responsibility to provide access to training."

Don't want to force anyone. It is a free world after all.

 

[wormster]

I know I'm going to regret this but what's the knife for?

For jabbin people who are too wussy to do BIG pitches!! its either that or a gbfo bayonet as a hamster persuader.

 

[Geoff R]

It may surprise some of you to know that in my opinion nobody needs SRT training.  The procedures of SRT are so well described in publications, DVDs etc that it is entirely feasible to teach yourself (which is what I did).  What people need is SRT practice in a safe environment where they can learn in thier own time - and that's anywhere you can a hang a rope up suffcient to get your feet off the floor.

Im not really qualified to comment but please let me do so with my limited experience
It does seem that some people are naturals and take to SRT like a duck to water
Some read books and fully understand, or watch Andy's excellent DVD

But there are others that do seem to benefit best from direct step by step instruction


I totally agree that "practice" opportunity is so very important
But it seems to need more than just a safe place
Rather a chance to also have someone work with you to make sure what you have learnt is actually what you are doing

E.G.  is your D done up ?

Seems silly but working as individuals training in a hall, there could be no single "instructor" (dare I use this word) who is tasked to watch out for the silly things.   

 



 

 

[Peter Burgess]

More than that they have a responsibility to provide training.

I should have said "More than that they have a responsibility to provide access to training."

Don't want to force anyone. It is a free world after all.

One of the powers our constitution gives to the society is

"to promote the sport of caving in the broadest sense of the term in a safe and proper manner."

We choose to do this in a variety of ways, including advertising regular SRT practice nights, and arranging trips to a variety of places. The bottom line is that our members just enjoy themselves safely, and understand their limits. I think we do a reasonable job - witness the number of regulars at SRT nights, and the number of good trips reported on a regular basis, and the number of new people encouraged to give it a go. Nobody feels obliged to actively promote organised 'training'. The mere act of taking part in club activities and learning from their peers is good enough 'training' for most people. They get as little or as much as they want to from the experience. We are an informal group of like-minded people, who do it for pleasure. If we lose that, I think our popularity as a club will fast slip away.

 

[cap n chris]

It may surprise some of you to know that in my opinion nobody needs SRT training. 

I am very surprised to read that it is your opinion that people do not need* training in the use of a Petzl Stop.


* I suppose it's about defining the word "need". i.e. it is arguably preferable for people to be instructed rather than for them to try and apply their interpretation of written instructions etc..

 

[Peter Burgess]

It may surprise some of you to know that in my opinion nobody needs SRT training. 

I am very surprised to read that it is your opinion that people do not need* training in the use of a Petzl Stop.


* I suppose it's about defining the word "need". i.e. it is arguably preferable for people to be instructed rather than for them to try and apply their interpretation of written instructions etc..

The principle of the Stop is quite easy to grasp (forgive the unfortunate phrase). Surely it is practice in using it that matters (as Andy suggests), not understanding how it works, which is pretty straight forward.

 

[Known by None]

Perhaps it is frown worthy but I learnt my SRT via Andy's Dvd and then spent an hour or so being shown it all in practise by Mr Darkplaces. When I started I couldn't even stand on top of the Wessex frame due to severe vertigo, a few weeks later I was doing Rhino. The SRT (at least the stuff I have done so far) has been very easy, the confidence was the thing that required the most work. I'm sure although it is quick and easy to learn it will be very slow to master, but I find if I hang off the Wessex frame then after a while various experienced folk start milling around shouting advice and pointing out where I need improvement.... either that or they just laugh at me. 
I have a lust for SRT now, the bigger the better, and I really enjoy it! Perhaps I should have gone the professional training route, but in the back of my mind I am always conscious that because I didn't, I should work all the more harder at it, and that can only be a good thing.

 

[cap n chris]

Apparently not so, Peter; I guess it's a case of consistency.

e.g. Andy wrote elsewhere:

"(the) conclusion that I came to which is that Stops require a very high standard of training to be used safely"

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,1850.0.html

 

[Andy Sparrow]

The principle of the Stop is quite easy to grasp (forgive the unfortunate phrase). Surely it is practice in using it that matters (as Andy suggests), not understanding how it works, which is pretty straight forward.

Poor training is often more dangerous than no training.  Teaching yourself to use a Stop is fine if approached the right way.  Refer to Petzl instructions or Speleo-Vertical for basic threading and operation. If you start by sitting in a harness and abseiling the 2 or so feet to the ground you can't go far wrong.  Then try standing on a chair.  Repeat about 20 times and then try stopping and locking-off.  Repeat agan, and again.  Then thread with your eyes closed.      Then try hanging a rope in a tree and practising prusik/abseil changeovers, moving progressively higher and higher.  Alternatively you can pay lots of money to do exactly the same thing with me or some other instructor watching and advising.....

 

[paul]

The bottom line is that we don't want mandatory training leading to requirements for Certification, Licences or whatever in order to go caving.

We recognise that training should be provided either by fellow club members (that's "club" with a small "c" to keep those groups of cavers who do not belong to an "official" club happy) following best practices or, should any individuals wish, then by the services of a professional instructor arranged by themselves.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Apparently not so, Peter; I guess it's a case of consistency.

e.g. Andy wrote elsewhere:

"(the) conclusion that I came to which is that Stops require a very high standard of training to be used safely"

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,1850.0.html

Yes, indeed, and that includes the possibility of a high standard of self-training, as described above.  I have always been a strong advocate of self-training  and promoted the concept strongly in Cave Safe 3.