The CAL agreement with NRW has ended

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mikem

Well-known member
Seems to be caused by things like this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870150/FOI2019_10351_Response_Redacted.pdf

Which don't seem to relate just to SSSI's:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bat_reports_at_county_hall_mold
 

Dave Tyson

Member
mikem said:
Seems to be caused by things like this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870150/FOI2019_10351_Response_Redacted.pdf

Which don't seem to relate just to SSSI's:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bat_reports_at_county_hall_mold
I think this exactly highlights the problems NRW is up against.

I would strongly defend the FOI legislation but it can be abused by individuals as it costs nothing to submit requests and cause mischief. Maybe requests should cost a nominal amount, say ?25, which would discourage multiple malicious requests. I could understand a bat hugger being concerned if building work is disturbing bats, but I know the historical society which looks after Rhydymwn have had real problems with people raising objections to access to any of the buildings - just in case there was a bat present. The society were trying to train up a member so that they could assess the situation themselves - but this proved very problematic and both DEFRA and NRW were less than helpful. I don't know what the answer is here, but I think that requests for information need to be logged with the identity of the person so that it is clear to others if this is a genuine concern or just making trouble.

Interestingly bats in mines in England don't seem to cause the same level of problems.

Dave
 

RobinGriffiths

Well-known member
That reminds me. I arranged a rescue practice at BYP and PYW about 25 years ago, and thought it would be a nice touch to ask the bat people along as observers. What a pain in the arse they turned out to be. Far from being observers, they stuck their oar in so far that the practice almost got cancelled.
 

robnorthwales

New member
Dave Tyson said:
mikem said:
Seems to be caused by things like this:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/870150/FOI2019_10351_Response_Redacted.pdf

Which don't seem to relate just to SSSI's:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/bat_reports_at_county_hall_mold
I think this exactly highlights the problems NRW is up against.

I would strongly defend the FOI legislation but it can be abused by individuals as it costs nothing to submit requests and cause mischief. Maybe requests should cost a nominal amount, say ?25, which would discourage multiple malicious requests. I could understand a bat hugger being concerned if building work is disturbing bats, but I know the historical society which looks after Rhydymwn have had real problems with people raising objections to access to any of the buildings - just in case there was a bat present. The society were trying to train up a member so that they could assess the situation themselves - but this proved very problematic and both DEFRA and NRW were less than helpful. I don't know what the answer is here, but I think that requests for information need to be logged with the identity of the person so that it is clear to others if this is a genuine concern or just making trouble.

Interestingly bats in mines in England don't seem to cause the same level of problems.

Dave

Knowing someone who works in FOI / Subjext Access requests for a public body, I have to entirely agree with Dave on this - they are bombarded with massive numbers of requests from the same few people, on a continual basis.

So much so that they have taken some of the worst to Court to ask for them to be declared 'vexatious' - which means that the individual requests can be refused if the information has been previously supplied or the request is worded so broadly as to be a fishing expedition, or if large numbers of requests are received from the same person or group
 

ChrisJC

Active member
Perhaps it's time the legislation regarding bat protection is reviewed.

Certainly I find it hard to believe that they are endangered since they seem to crop up every time a development is mooted...

Perhaps it's why HS2 is costing ?1million per meter to build - fending of the ecologists.

Chris.
 

Tribal Chestnut

New member
ChrisJC said:
I find it hard to believe that they are endangered since they seem to crop up every time a development is mooted...

Perhaps it's why HS2 is costing ?1million per meter to build - fending of the ecologists.

Chris.

That?s definitely not the case around here - a number of resi/mixed developments seem to have easily sidestepped any bat-friendly legislation, which is a real shame.

As for HS2, that seems to just be due to the number of fingers in the pie, together with ?because it can?.
 

Graigfawr

New member
May I suggest that CAL submit a short note to Welsh Mines Society Newsletter editor so as to ensure that this news is widely known and the implications appreciated?

From a personal perspective, its will impact survey and recording work that I'd already suspended when Covid began.
 

Dave Tyson

Member
Graigfawr said:
May I suggest that CAL submit a short note to Welsh Mines Society Newsletter editor so as to ensure that this news is widely known and the implications appreciated?

From a personal perspective, its will impact survey and recording work that I'd already suspended when Covid began.
We can certainly do this, but want to hold fire for a few days as there may be an issues to sort out

Dave
 

zzzzzzed

Member
Stuart France said:
NRW appears to be in breach of contract due to not giving us 6 weeks notice of termination in the absence of any identification of a breach by CAL and proper notice being given of that.  They terminated the agreement verbally in a Zoom meeting which was unexpected.  This has not been confirmed in writing yet and it is not clear NRW ever intends to do so.  We will follow this up.

If you haven?t received 6 weeks notice in writing then the contract hasn?t ended yet.  The employee of NRW who told you that the contract had been terminated may not have authority to make that decision.

Is it worth contacting Dawn Bowden MS,  Deputy Minister for Arts and Sport and asking how this fots in the the Welsh Governments Healthy Wales plan 
https://gov.wales/healthy-weight-healthy-wales-delivery-plan-2021-2022-html

In it National Priority Area 2 is ?Creating active environments and spaces to enable us to move more?.
http://www.wales.nhs.uk/documents/100121activewalesen.pdf

If the people who made this decision start receiving questions from ministers they might sit up and take notice.

After all NRW mission statement says ?Our purpose is to ensure that the natural resources of Wales are sustainably maintained, enhanced and USED, now and in the future?
 

Stones

New member
I believe NRW had vans parked outside the entrance to a certain mine in the Gwydyr forest  that was under the CAL agreement over the weekend.
 

Ian Adams

Active member
zzzzzzed said:
If you haven?t received 6 weeks notice in writing then the contract hasn?t ended yet.  The employee of NRW who told you that the contract had been terminated may not have authority to make that decision.


I am quite sure "Judge Judy" would agree with that. Both are perfectly valid. I would imagine you (CAL) don't want to antagonise the wasp's nest by pulling either of those chains but they are certainly fall back positions ....

Ian
 

Paul Marvin

New member
Stones said:
I believe NRW had vans parked outside the entrance to a certain mine in the Gwydyr forest  that was under the CAL agreement over the weekend.

Do the vans have lettering on them ?
 

Cantclimbtom

Active member
If true.. people might use "those tactics". Short term no permission makes things more entertaining, but it's far from long term progress. And anyone getting caught could further sour an already unfortunate situation. Great shame I was hoping to pay a visit to one of those sites before Christmas. I can't say I will now...
 

Paul Marvin

New member
Cantclimbtom said:
If true.. people might use "those tactics". Short term no permission makes things more entertaining, but it's far from long term progress. And anyone getting caught could further sour an already unfortunate situation. Great shame I was hoping to pay a visit to one of those sites before Christmas. I can't say I will now...

Watch our videos and imagine you are there LOL  ;)
 
Just to update everyone.  CAL wrote a firm letter to the NRW staffer involved in the mines matter copied to their Chief Executive.

NRW has now accepted that "[the landowners have] continued to act [since 2015] as if both licences remain in place and so their terms should continue to be followed including the requirement to give 6 weeks' notice [in writing] if any party wishes for the licences to end.  I hope that allays your concerns regarding the status of both licence agreements and will respond in the New Year on the outstanding points in your letter."

I think this is code for the CAL mine access agreements still being operative and that NRW will come back to us with some proposals in 2022 which we hope will be practical, constructive and mutually beneficial.
 
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