The hardest cave in the U.K.

[Dep]

Whilst I try to suppress that side of my character I would love to walk into the pub to an awed silence and everyone whispering "wow - that guy is a proper 'ard caver - done everything, been everywhere, knows everything etc etc"
But the reality is sadly rather different, as I have gotten older I have learnt (often the hard way) what my capabilities and limits are, and above all to work up gradually to any objective.

At the same time I am lucky enough to be young enough to have penty of time to do many things and accomplish a great deal yet - but whether I will or not is another matter, and frankly it's a lot less important to me than simply enjoying myself.

I get many things out of caving, first and foremost I enjoy the social interaction, but at the same time I like a personal physical/psychological challenge. I like pushing my limits, and often find that I am up to the challenge - but not always!

I'm no pansy, but I would be very naive to describe myself as "f'kin 'ard" - I'm not.
I have the sense to realise what I am not capable off, and whilst I keep an open mind and always try to learn or aspire to greater things I also keep my feet on the ground. There are those who know me well (some on this forum) who have seen me in states of near-exhaustion and absolute pant-wetting terror.

Those of you involved with CRO activities: how many time have you rescued people who set out to do what they were simply not up to?

Whatever you do in life (not just in caving) you will always find that you are better at it than some, but conversely you will usually find people who make you look like a rank novice.

I love the sense of achievment felt after having done something you thought might be nigh on impossible - but I don't have to do the caving equivalent of the North face of Everest (or whatever - I know f**k all about climbing) to feel this, some of my personal bests would probably come over as quite mundane to some.

Over the few years that I have been caving I have overcome many fears and so on, these to me are my personal North faces and I am quite content with them - but of course I always want more so although I may not be at Simon's level of "f'kin 'ardness" and achievement I am pushing myself to an equivalent personal level and can still look him in the eye with no sense of shame.

And unless he is a proper skinny sod I bet I can get through smaller holes than he can and therefore go places that he and probably 75% of you can't!!!    :tease:

 

[Simon Beck]

Hey Dan......I never said precedents could be set from reading a guidebook, with regards to digs and furthering systems, i've spent the last few years in search of folk interested in digging/prospecting trips into Langcliffe and mossdale with little success, the rewards with a lot of hard work i'm sure could be great, after all it is regarded as one of the most intriguing hydrological systems in the country and probably one of the most ignored.

With regards to heroes, i can't really say i've many caving heroes as such, there're a bunch of local blokes who's tales of caving from the 60-70s are stuff of legend who i admire and respect greatly, most of my heroes are alpinists/explorers Walter Bonatti/ Hermann Buhl / Shackleton / and loads more. Yes i have read the Twight book one of the best i've ever read, you should see my book collection.

With regards to been made to look stupid, i doubt that would be the case and i would love for someone to take me up on the offer, you think i'd write it if i thought for a second that would be the case, i've faced some fucking scary shit underground alone, stuff that dosen't seem half as bad when accompanied, it would take a bloody madman with a tough agenda to make me look stupid.

With regards to making friends, i'd rather be a pirate and make my own rules.

 

[Simon Beck]

Why don't you all bloody well laugh about it and stop taken something a piss taking yet frustrated hard caver like myself says. As Jim Morrison said once during is most anarchic period "I was just testing the bounds of reality".

 

[Simon Beck]

Also could someone show me a quote where i said 'i'm harder than everyone else' which is what a majority seem to think. You misinterpret me saying 'anyone out there who thinks they're a hard caver who likes to push themselves to do ever harder trips and lots of danger is welcome' for i'm harder than the rest of you and i want my respect. Read everything i've wrote on this thread word by word and then judge me, you might find i'm actually quite modest about myself, i've just got high standards and with regards to all the slagging i'm bloody thick skinned as well.

 

[Cumbrian Neil]

Wow... this thread went pair shaped in a hurry... I imagine Bubba will have to step in and be the law maker on this one!!  Anyhow, I'd like to honorably mention Strans Gill as being a pretty tough trip based on the commiting squeezes in the entrance pitches.  Langcliffe was more ominous than anything else and you need a human forklift like Steve Foreshaw (Sp?) to move rocks around going through the Nemesis Choke.  I'm long past doing anything hard anymore, but I still have aspirations of doing the Greater Easegill Traverse next summer.  Personally, I think hard caves are based on dives, not the dry stuff... like the ones going on in Black Keld at the moment.  Those boys, Rick Stanton etal, are at the top of their game as were ULSA when they were pushing the back end of Penyghent.  These days I like caves that get me to the pub by 9pm... the trick is getting your caving pals to get out of the cafe by 11am.



Simon - I like your passion, but you're a bit scary... are you bi-polar or just opinionated?  I wonder if you're laughing when you write your responses?  You certainly have a captive crowd : ).

Let's all kiss and make up (not Brokeback Mountain style though!).

CN.

 

[JB]

This Langcliffe sounds like a hard cave. Not fit enough for that at the moment but training started in earnest this morning. I've just flat-out crawled around Sheffield's inner ring road from my house to Sainsburys on Archer Road wearing a 7mm wetsuit and dragging two tackle bags. Pretty dangerous too as it's a bus route but I made it there and back. By the time things have really started to flood in the Dales I should be ready. 

 

[AndyF]

I was training too last night, lifting dozens of heavy cases of Cotes du Rhone out of the Majestic Wine trolley into the back of my car, then, to really follow up, I lifted them all out again at the other end.

By New Years day I should be well sorted...

 

[Peter Burgess]

I was training too last night, lifting dozens of heavy cases of Cotes du Rhone out of the Majestic Wine trolley into the back of my car, then, to really follow up, I lifted them all out again at the other end.

By New Years day I should be well sorted...

 

Reminds me of this article written at a time when we were finding it hard to get anyone off their backsides to go caving.... (not my work, I should add)

On 16th January 1982 I made a solo expedition into East Grinstead with the intention of leaving my house, and doing the through trip up London Road, along the High Street and back to my house again.

I was forced to reduce speed past the cinema due to thick ice but I crossed the road and slipped into Robert Dyas to warm up. Their hacksaw blades were clearly much more expensive than Woolworth's so I left, and purchased 2 lbs. of satsumas just up the road. It was now necessary to cross London Road (20' pitch) which I decided to do using Suicidal Road Technique, but I nearly came unstuck on the other side when I ran into a woman collecting for the NSPCC.

I free climbed into the Post Office and obtained ten 14p stamps but was unable to find out about the new postal rates. Negotiating a fierce housewife ruckle in Tesco, I next spent 42p on a large white loaf but resisted the temptation to buy a fresh cream eclair. I was now halfway through the trip but pressed on since I remembered that I had not left a route plan back at the house in case I got into difficulties.

With trouble, I turned into London Road and crossed at a point with no handholds which in retrospect was totally irresponsible. For my foolishness I then paid the price by having to traverse up a 45 degree cobble slope to the bookshop. Having been duly fleeced therein for £13.50 I descended to a point opposite the Crown. With a bold step across the zebra crossing I was on the right side to make good progress to the Rose and Crown where I took a passage to the left. The floor was very slippery and there was considerable danger from loose cars so I went as quickly as possible through to De La Warr Road. A little later I was back in my front porch only to find that the house had been gated in my absence and so I was forced to use a key.

With a cup of coffee in my hand ten minutes later, I sat in the kitchen reflecting on a stimulating and worthwhile trip. I might even goto Tunbridge Wells this summer.

This article is aimed specifically at those members who due to total lack of experience are unable to appreciate trip reports about underground areas. I hope it makes them feel warm and cosy.

WARNING: Solo trips into crowded towns should only be undertaken by those with the necessary experience and equipment.

 

[JB]

I was training too last night, lifting dozens of heavy cases of Cotes du Rhone out of the Majestic Wine trolley into the back of my car, then, to really follow up, I lifted them all out again at the other end.
By New Years day I should be well sorted...

And people say that nobody trains for caving any more...!

 

[JB]

Yes i have read the Twight book one of the best i've ever read, you should see my book collection.

The fellas putting in work in the 'Louder than 11' vid are actually aspirant members of the Eldon training prior to a Bagshawe digging trip. See http://www.gymjones.com/video.php#

 

[Dave H]

I get many things out of caving, first and foremost I enjoy the social interaction, but at the same time I like a personal physical/psychological challenge. I like pushing my limits, and often find that I am up to the challenge - but not always!

I'm no pansy, but I would be very naive to describe myself as "f'kin 'ard" - I'm not.
I have the sense to realise what I am not capable off, and whilst I keep an open mind and always try to learn or aspire to greater things I also keep my feet on the ground. ....

Those of you involved with CRO activities: how many time have you rescued people who set out to do what they were simply not up to?

Ditto...
That's why my regular caving mates call me "Half-a-cave-Dave"
It's always me that calls the turn around if I, or one of the others, is starting to struggle too much.
I quite like the 'monica' as it shows that they respect my knowledge and decisions

I am comfortable with caving at all sorts of levels and enjoy taking beginers around Carlswalk as much as visiting the far reaches of Darren (although in differing ways)
The far reaches of Darren without a sleep is probably the hardest trip I will ever do in the UK

 

[Rob]

I reckon a contenter for the hardest trip must be getting to sump 4 of the The Rasp. It involves pumping around 100,000 litres of water out of sumps 1,2 and 3, followed by a prusuk up TITAN afterwards with the pumps.

Actually it would probably be harder to do it in and out of Peak main entrance (ie without SRT). Just goes to show that although SRT can show a hard trip, it's not the final decider by a long way.

 

[Joel Corrigan]

Simon, is it?  Well, Simon, you throw the gauntlet down and sooner or later someone will casually pick it up, wipe their bum, and throw it back!  Whilst I'm not going to go caving with you over the winter (away on expedition for three months) I will formally invite you to join the Dachstein Expedition over the summer.  However, I'd suggest that if you do come out to Austria with us and get involved in pushing some of the hardest caves that you'll ever have the misfortune to explore then you'd best wind your neck in a tad as some of our regulars will eat you for breakfast (and that's just the ladies).  Added to which, you need to be mellow to be able to live with forty people for a month in the mountains.

I don't often write anything on this site but every now and again the hairs rise on the back of my neck.  Shame that Mike Wooding (a regular contributor) has passed away as he'd probably be chuckling at the thought of pending bloodshed!  Apart from that, he was harder than all the hard men put together.  So yes, Simon, whilst I agree with you that there are a lot of softies out there I also realise that it doesn't matter whatsoever.  You just have to get off your arse, find some like-minded individuals, and get on with it.  More to the point, stop wasting that energy and enthusiasm and get involved in exploration projects.  I can put you in touch with any number of divers, diggers etc... who would appreciate help with kit.  And just for the record, any of the trips that you may have mentioned take on a whole new level of difficulty when you're self-portering bottles and gear...  Or for that matter drills, climbing gear, etc... Hard?  Hmmn, we'll let you know......

 

[Simon Beck]

Hey Joel, the offer sounds interesting, but with regards to winding my neck in i can assure i won't need to do that, because the person i am here on this thread resembles in no way the person i am in the real world and when folk realise i'm just taking the piss and making life interesting, who knows, my motives are unclear even to myself sometimes but believe me i'm just having a laugh.
Yes! i regard myself as a hardcore caver who likes to live on the edge, i don't think i'm harder than everyone else, i don't think i'm the best, i haven't even scratched the surface yet, but i want to and i want some mad partners and i do think cavers in general well the younger lot i no are soft, if i read in a thread here the kinda shit i wrote yesterday, i'd laugh my arse off ring the guy up and say when do you want to go out caving, i'd be wary about the guy to begin with untill i'd got to know him obviously, but when you lack partners for these trips fullstop you kinda stop getting fussy about who you go with.

I repeat stop getting so offended at the shit i write on a whim, if you enjoy your caving be it photography, surveying etc...etc that's cool, why the hell're you folk getting offended in the first place if masochistic trips are your thing then it applies to you i guess. Goddamn i've been kicked off more sites than i care to remember due to my impulsive behaviour online, kick me off but don't get personal.

Hey Neil, you mentioned earlier about the ULSA/NPC explorations of the penyghent pot extensions, legendary they certainly were, that's one i'd love to have been a part of.ULSA's exploration journals 2 is kinda the equivalent of the bible for me.

 

[jockster]

Interesting discussion lads - Excellent response Joel.

Ok so here goes, my first post on the fourm.

To a certain respect Simon I can understand where your comming from coming from.  I got into caving properly only relatively recently having come from a climbing/mountaineering background.  While I would never on any account describe myself as ‘hard’ I do like to test my limits and try to push my self in difficult environments.  

When I first got my hands on the Fermanagh caving guide I used to think that grades on the surveys related to the difficulty of the cave.  Equating caving with climbing I wanted to do all the high numbers only I couldn’t figure out if 1 or 5 was the hardest!

Thankfully I got in with the right bunch of cavers who quickly put on the right track and I have chilled out considerably since then..

To a man/woman I have found cavers to be a refreshingly unassuming modest bunch of people.  Which is something which can defiantly not be said of the many climbers I have met.  I grew up reading mountaineering books and epic tales of survival on the highest peaks of the world.  When I finally tracked to information on my local caves I read descriptions of what was involved in pushing systems in my own back yard and realised there were guys doing stuff at the very extremes less than 20 minutes form my front door.  Only difference is these unassuming local folk didn’t publish their memoirs and let everyone know how hard they were.  They just left maps, descriptions, guidebooks and possibilities for future generations to follow.

As far as I’m concerned there’s nothing wrong with wanting to push yourself - making a big song and dance about it isn’t necessary.

Personally I think the hardest cave/trip is yet to be found…  

 

[Simon Beck]

Joel, with regards to any divers you know who need porters yes i'm interested, cave divings something i'm getting into but not something i'm taking seriously at the moment there's still plenty of cave trips i wanna do before commiting to diving, i was planning on joining the CDG next year and hopefully getting in with a few divers and helping out and learning stuff at the same time, so any help would be most appreciated. With regards to getting off my arse and finding like minded people i've been trying to recruit folk for these trips for years why do you think i have low opinions with regards other cavers.

 

[andymorgan]

Simon you could be right about finding young hard cavers: maybe people these days are more worried about doing 'risky' activities, and would rather  I have met lots of hard young cavers, particulary among the University caving clubs, although many of them never talk too much about their achievements: its just a walk in the park to them!


Anyway back on topic, what are hard caves in the U.K.?

 

[badger]

perhps most difficult cave would have been a better, rather than hardest.
if we have to talk about the hardest cavers I would say all modern cavers in comparison are softies, which is not obviously strictly true, but any of the very early explorers, with lack of clothing, lights etc I would say where a lot harder. however every one has to work within the age they live in and the physical restrictions with in themselves. what might be easy for 1 person may be at the physical extreme for another, does this then make them any less hard because the cave technically is say a grade 1, our group several years ago took a young person who was disabled parylised all down her left hand side to wilsons, 4 hours later she completed the cave, for her this was to the extreme of her abilities and a huge achievement. For me the hardest caver is the person who can say,when only half hour from the bottom perhaps, is we have run out time we are going out. 

 

[andymorgan]

with lack of clothing

So the SUSS guys are very hard cavers....

Maybe in more ways than one .........sorry!!

 

[Rob]

I can safely say that amongst the males of SUSS there were very few hard personal attributes roaming the caves, but a couple for each of the females.

Therefore, women are harder than men...