There goes the Crux!

[Kenilworth]

Mrodoc's statement (and several similar others he has made)  is not very helpful because it establishes a freedom without examining its consequences. The easy thing for ignorant or weak-conscienced people is to accept the so-called freedom and forget about its meaning or implications. This, unfortunately, is what the world's religions do; provide an easy excuse for and bestow a blessing upon unprincipled life. This does not well serve the adherents, their families, or their communities. 

I do not suggest that this is true in Mrodoc's case, but perhaps he has been long in establishing personal philosophies and principles and is simply unable to easily express them or is unwilling to expose them to criticism.

 

[Mark]

The next plan for our dig is a jet/vacuum tanker to suck the shit out

 

[mikem]

Mining & quarrying have destroyed far more than cavers ever will, but have also opened up passages as well - everyone needs to consider what will be the consequences for others of me doing this...

Mike

 

[alastairgott]

The next plan for our dig is a jet/vacuum tanker to suck the shit out

If you have a party at yours and the toilet gets blocked then this could happen sooner than you think 

 

[Peregrina]

I'm glad this has been brought up. I've found it a bit odd in my brief caving life how precious cavers are about preserving calcite formations while people happily trample sediments, place wasteful bolts, drain sumps and cap squeezes to their heart's content if it is in some way related to a project.

 

[Cave_Troll]

Does size have any correlation to the people arguing that we should make digs as small as possible?

While i accept that some digs don't happen for environmental reasons (eg "we'd have to smash all those stalls", or "this would open an easy way in to what has been until now a 3 hour crawl")

Once you've taken the ethical decision to dig, i see no point in making it only just big enough for a few small people. unless you're one of those small people.

Would Titan have been found had Far Sump Extensions still only been accessible to divers ?

 

[Simon Wilson]

Does size have any correlation to the people arguing that we should make digs as small as possible?

While i accept that some digs don't happen for environmental reasons (eg "we'd have to smash all those stalls", or "this would open an easy way in to what has been until now a 3 hour crawl")

Once you've taken the ethical decision to dig, i see no point in making it only just big enough for a few small people. unless you're one of those small people.

Would Titan have been found had Far Sump Extensions still only been accessible to divers ?

Has anybody said that? What Simon Beck said and what I agreed with is that natural passages that cavers can get along should not be enlarged unnecessarily.

 

[Roger W]

I think "unnecessarily" is the point in question, Simon.  Who decides how much enlargement is "necessary" and by what criteria?

 

[Simon Wilson]

?When I use a word,? Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, ?it means just what I choose it to mean?neither more nor less.?

 

[droid]

Well, that clears that up.....

 

[richardg]

Many years ago.
Down in a Dales pothole.....we had a small tube beckoning us with a good draught and the sound of a stream beyond, and with the promise geologically of a large cave system. we enlarged it.

Me and my mate squeezed through headfirst to discover a vertical drop that required a certain level of athletic agility to negotiate.

this eventually led our club into half a kilometre of magnificent cave including a large stream way...

Its has since been visited and enjoyed by many others.

That first obstacle has provided each person who has negotiated it a genuine feeling of satisfaction.

Recently came along a caver who wanted to see the cave for himself.
A pleasant guy,  an experienced caver, though at this time was not in his prime, and carrying a bit of excess weight so could not pass the obstacle without the hassle of a engaging in a heathier lifestyle.

He took explosives down and removed the obstacle.

He then went only a little further into the cave, and decided he'd seen enough, deciding the cave wasn't for him, he left, and moved on elsewhere.....

Consequently a historic feature of exploration no longer exists..

 

[Ian Ball]

In my eyes that comes across at best as shortsighted selfishness.

 

[Cave_Troll]

Has anybody said that? What Simon Beck said and what I agreed with is that natural passages that cavers can get along should not be enlarged unnecessarily.

Apologies. I thought we were talking about "how small can we make our dig?"

 

[PeteHall]

But what about adding a crux?

The easier entrance to lower Piere's Pot was blocked many years ago by an unfortunate rockfall.  The crux of the trip now is a very committing vertical squeeze that was bypassed by the original entrance.

Should we be opening the old entrance again so those of a slightly larger than ferret build can visit the cave again?

 

[MJenkinson]

Dunno Pete, but we drain sumps for those who can't be arsed learning to dive.

 

[PeteHall]

Learning to dive is something that people can do something about if they choose. You don't choose the size of your chest or hips and there is nothing you can do to change them...

 

[MJenkinson]

As you well know Pete I am hardly a racing snake.  I fully agree with what I think is your point.  My point was more aimed at those who are so anti to the idea of enlarging passage, but will happily move sediment, drill holes, drag sand bags and plastic piping and sheeting into a cave to remove sumps.

I'm just mardy cos I like pies and beer.

It's a very grey area and relies I think in a certain requirement for "sportsmanship" and a view to long term conservation vs exploration.  If i was digging then the hole will be bigger than if someone like Maxf was digging.  But I would only make it as big as was required for me and equipment. 

It also depends on what you are digging through - till and infill, f*** it, make it massive. Flowstone, as little as possible.  But that's my view and I am sure many would disagree.

 

[alastairgott]

Dunno Pete, but we drain sumps for those who can't be arsed learning to dive.

And generally they fill up again, as that's what sumps do! However If it's a static sump, the problem is much more prevalent.

There are two fantastic Examples in the speedwell streamway, as far as I know both are static, but would probably be lost entirely if they were drained.
Secret sump and Bathing pool are both really beautiful places with crystal clear blue water. These Iconic destinations in the Peak speedwell system would [probably] be lost forever if they were to be drained/pumped. [not withstanding large floods from main rising!]

O Hesp Alyn (north wales) is one which is drained, Cavemanmike tells me two sumps, the first is vast. They drain it with a syphon over several days, then empty the second into the first. (better done in summer, otherwise you'll be sumped in!)
Jenks, as I've not yet been in, i'll offer to carry in winter and see how you get on

 

[Ian Ball]

To me caving has always been one of the sports which favours the small guy.

 

[andrewmcleod]

But what about adding a crux?

The easier entrance to lower Piere's Pot was blocked many years ago by an unfortunate rockfall.  The crux of the trip now is a very committing vertical squeeze that was bypassed by the original entrance.

Should we be opening the old entrance again so those of a slightly larger than ferret build can visit the cave again?

Given that I'm pretty small (about a 6.75" squeeze box) and had a very 'entertaining' time getting out of it again, I'm amazed there is as much polish down there as there is.

On the other hand, I guess that's why it's still pretty despite being completely open in Burrington (well and the fact that fairly careful reading of the laminated description was necessary to find the well hidden ways on!).

PS I've never done a squeeze/thrutch before where I felt simultaneously too fat (as its reasonably snug) and too skinny (as it was all too easy to slip back down a few critical inches even after I'd got my elbows out, after which it _should_ but somehow still wasn't easy! Didn't bring a rope which made it more interesting... I was the base for a bit of combined tactics for my partner but had to get myself out; declined assistance from above for reasons of misguided ethical purity