Water Icicle Extensions

[martinb]

[/quote]

Leaving aside from the fact that in English law all caves are actually and in fact owned by somebody, we now have the situation that, compared with 1973 nobody can enjoy Gimli's Dream

oh well. 
[/quote]

Slightly incorrect, you can enjoy Gimli's if you wish to go via Merlin's Mine and do a bit of thrutching.

I did, last October - very nice in Gimli's indeed.

Martin

 

[AndyF]

... I have found plenty of cave myself...

Where...exactly....?

 

[El Agreb]

You not knowing, "where...exactly....?" is better than any gate, but none of it is secret and has been pretty well documented if you but look . Plenty, certainly exceeds 10k. Dan wears ribbon round his boots so he never steps outside of it when entering the new stuff so that all sediment is preserved/conserved for all these alleged invisible pseudo cave scientists to get orgasmic about. Lets have more folk like Dan rather than the vertically and otherwise challenged little people that seek to control and sit on committees or be company secretaries. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

..... don't let the idiots put you off.

Just thought I'd remind the guys of Goydenman's comment a while back. It seems quite apt. I have always had a good deal of respect for OCC and the way they operate, and this project fits in nicely with that view.

 

[graham]

You not knowing, "where...exactly....?" is better than any gate, but none of it is secret and has been pretty well documented if you but look . Plenty, certainly exceeds 10k. Dan wears ribbon round his boots so he never steps outside of it when entering the new stuff so that all sediment is preserved/conserved for all these alleged invisible pseudo cave scientists to get orgasmic about. Lets have more folk like Dan rather than the vertically and otherwise challenged little people that seek to control and sit on committees or be company secretaries.

I take it that's aimed at me. Who are you El Agreb. Do you have a name or do you hide behind internet anonymity?

Not knowing "where exactly" may work for a while, but does not work for caves close to or within centres of population. It will not work for caves like water icicle where the remainder of the cave is well known. In this crowded island of ours secrecy does not last for long.

Then what do you do when someone else finds it? Do you sit idly by and watch it destroyed?

Or do you put in the time and effort that is needed to care for our caves?

 

[AndyF]

You not knowing, "where...exactly....?" is better than any gate, but none of it is secret and has been pretty well documented if you but look . Plenty, certainly exceeds 10k. Dan wears ribbon round his boots so he never steps outside of it when entering the new stuff so that all sediment is preserved/conserved for all these alleged invisible pseudo cave scientists to get orgasmic about. Lets have more folk like Dan rather than the vertically and otherwise challenged little people that seek to control and sit on committees or be company secretaries.

I don't want to "look", I wouldn't know where to look, I just asked a simple "where?" and  got a cryptic paragraph but not an answer. If it s "not a secret" why not just answer the question  :

 

[Elaine]

For what it is worth I can't understand the open access for all argument. I am quite happy to accept gates if access is still available fairly easily.

 

[Turner]

FPMSLROFLOMGLOLBBQ



I love this thread..... finally "teh int0rnetz" has reached UKC

As for all the arguments...... may as well backfill and cap it...... No point conservation if it cant be appreciated.

 

[Brains]

Tape - ugly and intrusive. None cant advocate a wilderness experience while trapsing down a marked pathway. Neccessary evil?
Gates - embuggerence. Derbyshire key for preference, open info on how to get a key if not
Trashed cave - depressing and sad, long term education and respect is a solution. Gates will only create a them and us mindset with accusations of elitism and secrecy, exasperated if only certain types/groups/classes of people are let in / kept out.

Thankfully this gate is a temporary solution, and I look forward to visiting the hard one extensions in the future.

This whole tape and gates thing here or in other places and threads is really depressing

 

[SamT]

Stripped out all the irrelevant slanging.

Topic is a valid one for discussion and (reasonable) debate.

As for my 2p... if the gate is only a temporary measure, then what's the problem. Let the mysterious cave scientists do their thing (preferably sooner rather than later). Then the gate can be removed/left unlocked and life can go on as normal.

Cant see what all the fuss is about to be honest. 

 

[Peter Burgess]

.....  just another mud smeared fudge tunnel ......

I just loved Mr. T's colourful description of a 'well-abused' cave passage. 

 

[AndyF]

Well, reading a few of the comments and attitudes expressed on this thread and the "Wales"  here I draw one conclusion...

Next time we make a find, there is no way on gods green earth it will get a mention in magazines or forums. It'll stay secret as long as possible amongst the diggers only.

Sad isn't it that such a thing can't be shared and enjoyed and we retreat into our own little corners doing our own things due to the behavior of a few who have contributed zero to the discovery. I'd advise other digging groups to take the same line...

 

[Rob]

There are two sides to the coin - if no protection is to be offered to delicate features in caves then all digging anywhere should be banned.

I can't let this one pass without mentioning why i dig. It's mostly for answers. I want to understand the hydrology of that system. Every break through tells us more about the cave and how it was formed. The more we know, the more we will understand and then (hopefully) be able to find more.
I want to know where the passage goes the other side of Major Sump in Peak Cavern, or the other side of Weston Highway. I don't really care who's first to find out, i just want to know. I want to walk around the new passages, study the rock features (scallops, passage cross sections, etc) and dream up new answers to the puzzles.
At no point do delicate formations become my goal. They are the added bonus. I do appreceate them and will be respectful of them. But if you get rid of them all, the cave does not become "...just another mud smeared fudge tunnel...". It just seems like that to people who don't deserve to know any better.
But maybe that's just me...

 

[Peter Burgess]

Hey, Rob, my comment was meant to make you think (it seems to have worked  ), and was never meant to be taken entirely seriously.  And Everybody deserves to "know better". Everybody.

If someone's prime interest is archaeology, then the hydrology of a cave is only going to be of secondary interest. So why on earth can we not accommodate as wide a compass of interests as possible when it comes to studying what we have, whether speleothems, speleogenesis, archaeology, palaeontology . . . . . . . . ?

As for delicate formations not being relevant to your interests, well, if a passage contains dateable speleothems, then it is possible to determine, for example, when the passage may have ceased to be under active phreatic conditions.

 

[El Agreb]

Andy, I wasn?t being deliberately cryptic but sensed that you were disbelieving of Dan?s claim to having discovered plenty , have been with him on a good few kilometres but it is for him to respond with detail if he chooses, they only got peeped at the post by Water Icicle when unearthing Gautries. Round here where I dig the new directive is, - will not be published if less than 5 kilometres or 800m deep. ? ?

?Deuxi?me exigence : des r?cits d?explo (ne seront publi?s que les trous dont le d?veloppement total est sup?rieur ? 5km et/ou de profondeur sup?rieure ? -800m). On essaiera de tenir dans la mesure du possible un ?quilibre de 50/50 entre les explos en Haute-Garonne et dans le reste du monde.?

I have plenty of projects here and any one who wants can have details if they PM me. Development of the system is far more important to me than individuals who want to lay claim to their few metres.
I do however feel very strongly that the freedom of caving is important and far out weighs the committee members. I would prefer to lose access to systems than put up with the likes of them. This is not to say that I do not respect caves but have no need of self appointed ?virtuous nobodies? that purport to have more knowledge or sensitivity than me?


Graham, I do not see anything more revealing of your identity in your displayed name than mine. So  what is internet anonymity, I am the only caver in El Agreb so would be easy to find where as searching for a Graham might be more difficult, a breakfast cereal perhaps

 

[Peter Burgess]

If you do the smallest amount of research into the Charterhouse Caving Company, you would find out who Graham is without any difficulty whatsoever.

 

[Peter Burgess]

As if to prove the point, try googling "Graham Charterhouse Caving".

I tried googling "El Agreb Caving" and I am none the wiser, so I'm afraid you are not so easy to pin down.

 

[El Agreb]

Graham, is easy enough but where does the "Charterhouse Caving" come from in reasoned search with respect to water icicle. I might have extrapolated but did not.
Though to be truthfully honest and to be totally clear in the words of most politicians I really couldn't give a damn. He might not be as bad as I think but knowing the folks I suspect he is regarded as highly this side of the channel as we do him yours.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Well, you need to "know" him in the wider context of the forum.

Anyway, we digress......

 

[AndyF]

Andy, I wasn?t being deliberately cryptic but sensed that you were disbelieving of Dan?s claim to having discovered plenty , have been with him on a good few kilometres but it is for him to respond with detail if he chooses, they only got peeped at the post by Water Icicle when unearthing Gautries. Round here where I dig the new directive is, - will not be published if less than 5 kilometres or 800m deep. ? ?

What I was going to try to get to is what restrictions are/were in place on all this passage that he has discovered. Were any of those systems gated or had other restrictions? How had he handled those restrictions? Ignored them? Complied? This would have relevence to his views on restrictions placed on this site.

How many of these discoveries are the wrong side of a gate/permit/restriction? Miles of alpine passage in Europe are not the same as a few hundreds of m in the UK.

However, the point is lost as I got no answer.