Water Icicle Extensions

[DAN]

Interesting i am considering what to say next You lot up there really need to develop a sence of Humour. Sam Townsend especially, me and you are going to have words next Thursday. I am now not coming back to read anything of this thread again so slag me of if you like, you lot call youself cavers. This is stupid you cant voice your opinion with out a man with a serious case of LMS removeing it. I think a caveing club should be formed just for removeing gates who is up for it? We could have a night out removing gates then a pint afterwards!

DAN

 

[Turner]

Could one use a aluminothermic reaction?

 

[SamT]

WTF 

 

[Roger W]

Thermite.  Used by naughty people to remove hinges from safe doors and other obstacles.

:spank:

 

[Brains]

A "while" ago my chemistry teacher burnt through the bench and classroon floor into the classroom below demonstrating thermite to us...
Usefull for joining railtracks though

 

[Maisie Syntax]

I've not heard any mention of the 'bad air' that was reported to be in the previously known stuff in this cave. Is it still there?
I remember that some of the claims to the level of threat it presented posted on this forum were rather alarmist to say the least - fag lighting devices being extinguished being one of them I seem to recall.
Do people need to worry about it still? Why did the DCA not issue a warning about it like at long rake?
Will the bad air dissipate upon installation of the gate?
People of a more sceptical nature than myself may even say "did it exist in the first place"? Heaven forbid it was a ruse to keep people away from the dig.

BTW - as far as I'm aware, none of the Kms of stuff Dan found was in gated cave. The only restrictions on access to these areas was by the 'boldness' of the original caving which found them. They have been left in a state of far easier access so that others of a less outgoing nature may continue the exploration should they wish. Everthing installed in the original exploration could have been de-rigged, thus preventing the vast majority of subsequent cavers from ever seeing this new stuff.

Perhaps if the ladders and other forms of access which make access to the new stuff in water icicle so easy were removed, then this would place a self-restricting form of access to this section of cave in that only those with the requisite caving skills could reach this area? (I note that previous posts have indicated that people have already been able to access the new stuff without all these new caving aids).
The inference here (albeit not guaranteed 100% correct as there is always some knob) is that these more experienced cavers would/should/or at least will hopefully be, more aware of the potential for damage they could cause to the science upon which they tread.
At present it would appear that any leaden footed  numpty could get access to this new bit of cave science, as long as they are 'in' with the people who control the access.

 

[Les W]

Why did the DCA not issue a warning about it like at long rake?

There is a massive difference in the risk of exposure between CO and CO2
Even quite low levels of CO can be fatal although CO is very uncommon in caves and mines.
CO2 levels generally need to be very high for a long time to pose serious problems

 

[Brains]

Why did the DCA not issue a warning about it like at long rake?

There is a massive difference in the risk of exposure between CO and CO2
Even quite low levels of CO can be fatal although CO is very uncommon in caves and mines.
CO2 levels generally need to be very high for a long time to pose serious problems

The lid is now a grating rather than a solid sheet of steel, so ventilation is also much improved.

 

[zippy]

Bad air is still an issue in Water Icicle - it's not a "ruse", it's a genuine concern.

Z.

 

[paul]

I've not heard any mention of the 'bad air' that was reported to be in the previously known stuff in this cave. Is it still there?
I remember that some of the claims to the level of threat it presented posted on this forum were rather alarmist to say the least - fag lighting devices being extinguished being one of them I seem to recall.
Do people need to worry about it still? Why did the DCA not issue a warning about it like at long rake?
Will the bad air dissipate upon installation of the gate?
People of a more sceptical nature than myself may even say "did it exist in the first place"? Heaven forbid it was a ruse to keep people away from the dig.

I have no idea why some cavers are always suspicious and cannot take anything at face value. Human nature I suppose? Anyway, the reports of bad air have been ongoing for many YEARS at Water Icicle Close Cavern and affected various locations in the cave, long before this particular dig was started. DCA placed a warning notice on the shaft lid and also replaced the old solid lid with a grating several years ago (as with some other locations) in an attempt to improve air circulation. It is not known if this helped or not. There have been measurements of CO2 levels using a meter by cavers not involved in the digging nor connected to the diggers (for the sceptics among you). These levels have been high on several occasions ( >3%). There was a measurement made on Saturday on part of the new extensions using a CO2 meter, giving a reading of 1.5% (normal level is 0.03%). There is also a log book near the foot of the entrance shaft for cavers to record any comments on air quality.

As Les pointed out, the problem at Long Rake was with Carbon Monoxide (C0) as opposed to Carbon Dioxide (CO2). CO is much more serious and deadly than CO2. Excess CO2 will cause you to breathe heavily and give you a headache but you can evacuate the area and get relief from the symptoms. CO combines irreversibly with the heamoglobin in the blood preventing the blood from carrying oxygen and you will probably die without immediate medical attention. The causes of CO are usually decomposing organic matter whereas CO is produce from incomplete combustion usually from internal combustion engines or from explosives. There is a working quarry near Long Rake.

Perhaps if the ladders and other forms of access which make access to the new stuff in water icicle so easy were removed, then this would place a self-restricting form of access to this section of cave in that only those with the requisite caving skills could reach this area? (I note that previous posts have indicated that people have already been able to access the new stuff without all these new caving aids).
The inference here (albeit not guaranteed 100% correct as there is always some knob) is that these more experienced cavers would/should/or at least will hopefully be, more aware of the potential for damage they could cause to the science upon which they tread.
At present it would appear that any leaden footed  numpty could get access to this new bit of cave science, as long as they are 'in' with the people who control the access.

I'm afraid that having requisite caving skills and experience does not guarantee that a caver will take care and always bear conservation in mind. I'm sure you can think of many locations which have been trashed in the past despite involving difficult caving to reach the location.

 

[Iain Barker]

Regarding the "Bad Air".
I don't know if it is still a problem, you would think not with all the recent activity down there but it was very real several years ago. I had personal experience of it; not good.

Regarding the gate, as Access Officer for DCA I must admit that I'm a touch annoyed that I first found out about it via this forum but there again my views on it may have been anticipated. I see it as my job to keep the caves as open as possible, I hate gates. I have no objection to this one if the scientists (and I'm assuming John Gunn?) are in and out within a reasonable timescale and that the gate is then totally removed.

Gated sites that I run access to (Garden Path, Rookery etc) have been gated as a demand from the landowner to retain any access at all, it's the lesser of two evils. I will try to find out when the work will be completed at Water Icicle and when the gate will be removed (or at least unlocked) and I'll post it when I know.

I can understand that the deposits are a unique source of information to cave science (which may help us cavers in future years), but Natural England and everybody else concerned needs to step back and remind themselves that if it were not for the normal cavers going about their business they wouldn't have anything to study or protect anyway!

 

[owd git]

Thanks Iain, no more needs to be said! does it!!!!!!!!! 
It's a no brainer , really
Owd Git.

 

[Turner]

Air was good today, made use of the "in house" lighter

As for the gate....... its gone :s ?

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Turner. I get the idea that I am missing something. Do the letters ( p & s mainly, I think) at the end of some of your posts have any meaning? Sorry if this is a stupid question, as I have been told I am not very bright.

 

[Les W]

They are smilies

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smilies

is sticking out tongue
:s is confused

 

[Brains]

and:S are smillies codes, if you go to new post or reply and select a smillie/emticon you will see the code
eg : ) without a space is 

 

[Turner]

Ha ha And i was takin the piss about the gate

Cracking cave!!!! North passage is a crap muddy horrible mess (good place for stacking deads ).

 

[Chocolate fireguard]

Thank you.

 

[owd git]

Regarding the "Bad Air".
I don't know if it is still a problem, you would think not with all the recent activity down there but it was very real several years ago. I had personal experience of it; not good.

Regarding the gate, as Access Officer for DCA I must admit that I'm a touch annoyed that I first found out about it via this forum but there again my views on it may have been anticipated. I see it as my job to keep the caves as open as possible, I hate gates. I have no objection to this one if the scientists (and I'm assuming John Gunn?) are in and out within a reasonable timescale and that the gate is then totally removed.

Gated sites that I run access to (Garden Path, Rookery etc) have been gated as a demand from the landowner to retain any access at all, it's the lesser of two evils. I will try to find out when the work will be completed at Water Icicle and when the gate will be removed (or at least unlocked) and I'll post it when I know.

I can understand that the deposits are a unique source of information to cave science (which may help us cavers in future years), but Natural England and everybody else concerned needs to step back and remind themselves that if it were not for the normal cavers going about their business they wouldn't have anything to study or protect anyway!

As dates for a hand held visit seem to go on a while may we assume this to be a permanent arrangement? or is it simply  allowing for further study? thanks for your attention. O. G.

 

[Jenny P]

The need for the gate will continue to be under revue. 

For the moment it is needed but if, after consideration and discussion between all the parties involved, it is decided a gate is no longer required, then it will be either removed completely, fitted with a nut/bolt system requiring a "Derbyshire key" or left completely unlocked.  In the event, you will be informed.

Jenny Potts,
Hon. Sec. DCA