cavemanmike
Well-known member
My money is on
PETER BURGESS :spank: :spank: :spank:
PETER BURGESS :spank: :spank: :spank:
Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation - just 25 days left
- Thread starter Stuart France
- Start date
RobinGriffiths
Well-known member
Naughty, naughty...
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
This is a public consultation, drawing the opinion from members of the public. It is entirely right and proper that interest groups, such as the CCC, write on their own behalf to represent the overall opinions of their members. It is also right and proper that they encourage individuals to do so as well.
Everyone has the right to respond freely, regardless of their opinions, and I would defend the right of any caver to write what they believe.
Writing comes with a responsibility, however: a few dissonant opinions can wreck what others are trying to achieve. Those throwing spanners in a glass works should take great consideration before acting if they are potentially going to ruin it for everyone else.
There aren't right or wrong answers here, but I would say caving can only operate by consensus, and that sometimes requires an appreciation of the bigger picture.
If you still feel a need to respond negatively to this campaign, then do so, even though many would prefer you wouldn't.
Everyone has the right to respond freely, regardless of their opinions, and I would defend the right of any caver to write what they believe.
Writing comes with a responsibility, however: a few dissonant opinions can wreck what others are trying to achieve. Those throwing spanners in a glass works should take great consideration before acting if they are potentially going to ruin it for everyone else.
There aren't right or wrong answers here, but I would say caving can only operate by consensus, and that sometimes requires an appreciation of the bigger picture.
If you still feel a need to respond negatively to this campaign, then do so, even though many would prefer you wouldn't.
NewStuff
New member
andrewmc said:
That is exactly what they are trying to achieve.
They don't care what the majority want, they care about retaining the status quo, about "keeping power". They have no issues telling lies, manipulating statistics and putting their "spin" on things. It's sickening that they try to paint themselves as victims while doing this stuff. They keep on painting us as irresponsible oafs that will willingly wreck a cave environment, as if only they can have access *and* conserve it, and all cavers should find that hugely insulting.
I have no issues with people having a differing view on the way forwards, but I have a huge issue with lying, cheating and pulling underhanded tricks to further their campaign. That is the cause of almost all of the animosity this subject generates.
Kenilworth
New member
The letter and its apparent author are unmistakably devious, manipulative, and immature. I know this from firsthand experience. However, it is wise to collect truth from any source available. The letter makes some accurate and important points. 1. There are important differences between surface and cave ecologies and "resources" that should be considered by both cavers and legislators. 2. To argue simultaneously for open access and improved conservation is, not necessarily dishonest, but is either dishonest, ignorant, or deeply unrealistic.
I am interested in the motivations of those, such as Badlad, who are so passionately involved in promoting open access. I take his claim of altruism in behalf of new cavers to be honest, but it is impossible that this is the complete answer. It does not take very long for a dedicated individual to have access to almost anything they wish, and I wonder how caves can possibly benefit ecologically or cavers societally from making an already easy thing easier.
Anyway, from an outside perspective, some idvividuals on both sides of this debate have embarrassed themselves. I wish that cavers in both of our countries could escape both from possesive and quantitative thinking, and start to work toward generosity and quality.
I am interested in the motivations of those, such as Badlad, who are so passionately involved in promoting open access. I take his claim of altruism in behalf of new cavers to be honest, but it is impossible that this is the complete answer. It does not take very long for a dedicated individual to have access to almost anything they wish, and I wonder how caves can possibly benefit ecologically or cavers societally from making an already easy thing easier.
Anyway, from an outside perspective, some idvividuals on both sides of this debate have embarrassed themselves. I wish that cavers in both of our countries could escape both from possesive and quantitative thinking, and start to work toward generosity and quality.
cap n chris
Well-known member
NewStuff said:
Nearly choked on my tongue and coughed my drink through my nose, thanks.
23%.
Remember.
cap n chris
Well-known member
NewStuff said:
Touche.
Stuart France
Active member
The BCA has just send in their own excellent letter to WG supporting Cambrian's position which can be downloaded from here: http://www.caveaccess.co.uk/BCAresponse.pdf
This should also be available on the BCA and Cambrian Caving Council sites tomorrow. Unfortunately it seems to be a scan so you can't actually cut and paste their words that easily.
There are now just 4 days left to send in a short personal consultation response to Welsh Government. The more positive responses sent in by cavers the better. Cyclists have sent in thousands already, increasing their profile enormously, and communicating clearly what improvement they want to see. The address to email your personal response about caving matters is: naturalresourcemanagement@wales.gsi.gov.uk
All you need do is include your name and your home address and some supportive text such as this below - which you can cut and paste into an email:
?Dear Natural Resources Management Team / Annwyl T?m Rheoli Cyfoeth Naturiol,
I am responding to the Welsh Government Consultation Document WG31811, in particular to support its call for extending public rights for non-motorised recreation in the countryside and on the coast. As someone who enjoys caving and potholing in Wales, I endorse the Cambrian Caving Council?s full submission to the Welsh Government which is available online at: http://cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/WG31881_Sep_2017/WG31811response.pdf
In particular, there needs to be statutory recognition that caves are part of the outdoors and that caving is just as much an open-air, outdoor recreation as walking and rock climbing are. It would help if the future statutory code of practice mentions caving explicitly like the Scottish Code does to ensure there is consistency of opportunity and equality of access.
I understand that there is a need for cave conservation measures too, but believe that the existing law can protect the few highly valuable sites if applied judiciously while all the other caves on Access Land should enjoy statutory open access.
Yours faithfully / Yr eiddoch yn gywir?
This should also be available on the BCA and Cambrian Caving Council sites tomorrow. Unfortunately it seems to be a scan so you can't actually cut and paste their words that easily.
There are now just 4 days left to send in a short personal consultation response to Welsh Government. The more positive responses sent in by cavers the better. Cyclists have sent in thousands already, increasing their profile enormously, and communicating clearly what improvement they want to see. The address to email your personal response about caving matters is: naturalresourcemanagement@wales.gsi.gov.uk
All you need do is include your name and your home address and some supportive text such as this below - which you can cut and paste into an email:
?Dear Natural Resources Management Team / Annwyl T?m Rheoli Cyfoeth Naturiol,
I am responding to the Welsh Government Consultation Document WG31811, in particular to support its call for extending public rights for non-motorised recreation in the countryside and on the coast. As someone who enjoys caving and potholing in Wales, I endorse the Cambrian Caving Council?s full submission to the Welsh Government which is available online at: http://cambriancavingcouncil.org.uk/pdf/WG31881_Sep_2017/WG31811response.pdf
In particular, there needs to be statutory recognition that caves are part of the outdoors and that caving is just as much an open-air, outdoor recreation as walking and rock climbing are. It would help if the future statutory code of practice mentions caving explicitly like the Scottish Code does to ensure there is consistency of opportunity and equality of access.
I understand that there is a need for cave conservation measures too, but believe that the existing law can protect the few highly valuable sites if applied judiciously while all the other caves on Access Land should enjoy statutory open access.
Yours faithfully / Yr eiddoch yn gywir?
Kenilworth
New member
I cannot open the pdf (got rid of my computer and use my wife's phone to look at the site) but Stuart's sample supportive text is every bit as propagandic as anything advanced by the opponent, packed with the mindless catchphrases and bad reasoning that accompany ignorant activism of every sort.
royfellows
Well-known member
Kenilworth said:
You might think so
MJenkinson
Member
Kenilworth said:
This all seems a tad aggro and rather condescending. I especially like your term "ignorant activism" - do you know Stuart and know he is ignorant of the matters at hand?
Kenilworth
New member
MJenkinson said:
I do not know Stuart, but I am positive that he is not ignorant. I only mean that this is the language of ignorant activism, designed to be unthinkingly repeated by those who believe that it will serve their interests. Phrases such as "consistency of opportunity" and "equality of access" sound attractive to the impassioned ear, but contain no logic or rhetorical merit. The argument that caving is "open air" and thus deserving of the same recognition as other activities is a legalese one only, and while I realize that this petition is about law and designed to impact the law, I believe that law should be guided by principle, not word games.
MJenkinson
Member
Kenilworth said:
I would tend to agree however interpretation and enactment of the law by non-lawyers is prone to a black and white interpretation of the wording, so we are dealing with a legalese issue. The principle and spirit of the law can be argued by those in the know in a court, but when dealing with government departments we need clear wording. We already have a lawyers view regarding this whole "open air" malarkey, but it is probably going to be easier to change the wording than change how the rest of government chose to interpret some poor wording.
Kenilworth
New member
Similarly, individual behaviour should be guided by principle, not by law. I see very little evidence of principled behaviour on either side. This is not a legalese issue, it is being argued as one because that's seen as the only way it can be successfully argued. People are being urged to advocate on the basis of tenuous legality only because the moral position is even more tenuous.
Ian Adams
Active member
Kenilworth said:
No. The ?moral? issue is not recognised within statute. This is wholly and exclusively an action to engage the ?law? to recognise caving as an ?open air? activity.
Kenilworth said:
Yes, that is the sole objective here.
Kenilworth said:
Yes it is. If you cannot understand that (through defiance or simple ignorance) then please step away from this thread.
Kenilworth said:
That is an opinion to which you are entitled (and which I respect in the same way I respect everyone is entitled to hold their own opinion on any matter) but it has no place in this thread.
Kenilworth said:
You are being wholly unfair and your statement does Stuart a significant injustice. He is the Access and Conservation officer for the Cambrian Caving Council (for the avoidance of doubt as I realise you are in the USA and may not be familiar with UK Government ? the CCC is the Welsh Council that represents to the Welsh Government (and other bodies) on behalf of its members). Stuart is performing his mandate to promote the sport and ease access for everyone in Wales regardless of their political view.
You could argue the politics but please do not cast aspersions on a man who is doing his job (with heart and soul) as directed by his Council and on behalf of its members.
Ian
MJenkinson
Member
Kenilworth said:
I personally fail to see how the moral position for any other outdoor recreational access is any different to that of caving; hence I don't see it as tenuous. If you are arguing about the moral position regarding access as a whole (i.e. non-activity specific) on CROW land then we are going to get nowhere.
Dave Tyson
Member
The CCC response to the Welsh Government (WG) consultation has a broader base than just changes to the interpretation of the law. Active cavers are growing older (the BCA will be along soon with statistics to show this) and numbers of people caving have pretty well flat-lined based on the membership numbers of CCC clubs. We need to try and get more people involved and the WG wants to improve the health of the nation so it seems natural to push caving, along with climbing, cycling and walking as a means to achieve this. Caving has a very low profile in the media and any accidents are over-hyped as a result there is very little mention in mainstream tourism literature.
Most members of the Welsh Assembly are ignorant of the numbers of cavers who head into Wales at weekends to go caving and mine-exploring with their money being spent in local pubs and shops. Tourism is a major form of employment in Wales and while the contribution from caving is small compared to other outdoor activities it is still worthwhile. If we can raise the profile of caving and leverage the WG publicity machine then it may encourage more people to take a few steps underground which might help.
Dave
Acting CCC Secretary
Most members of the Welsh Assembly are ignorant of the numbers of cavers who head into Wales at weekends to go caving and mine-exploring with their money being spent in local pubs and shops. Tourism is a major form of employment in Wales and while the contribution from caving is small compared to other outdoor activities it is still worthwhile. If we can raise the profile of caving and leverage the WG publicity machine then it may encourage more people to take a few steps underground which might help.
Dave
Acting CCC Secretary