Welsh Government Recreational Access Consultation - just 25 days left

Kenilworth

New member
Ian, I understand that the moral issue is not recognized by the statute. I am troubled by a legal campaign that is not soundly backed by principle.

I do not care who Stuart is or what his job is or why he is doing it. It is altogether fair and proper to point out that his statement is terribly similar to the many "tactics" of the opposition.

MJ, do you not recognize important differences in cave ecologies and resources that might justify their being treated differently than surface features?
 

Kenilworth

New member
Ian, CCC's own response above seems to counter your assertion that this is a legalese issue only. Their motivating principle leaves a lot to be desired.
 

Rhys

Moderator
I fully support improved access to caves and the countryside. However, I had to raise an eyebrow at Stuart's words:

Stuart France said:
...the few highly valuable sites ...

I think caves on access land in Wales comprise more than a few of value. A bit more care could be taken with the wording of the letter, I think.

Rhys
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Kenilworth said:
Ian, I understand that the moral issue is not recognized by the statute. I am troubled by a legal campaign that is not soundly backed by principle.

It is soundly backed. We want the same recognition for caving as with other sports.


Kenilworth said:
I do not care who Stuart is or what his job is or why he is doing it. It is altogether fair and proper to point out that his statement is terribly similar to the many "tactics" of the opposition.


That?s a misnomer.


Kenilworth said:
Ian, CCC's own response above seems to counter your assertion that this is a legalese issue only.


No it doesn?t. Offering good reasons to support clarification of statute or the achievement of equal rights does not counter or undermine anything.


Kenilworth said:
Their motivating principle leaves a lot to be desired.


No it doesn?t. The motivating principal (here) is to petition for caving to enjoy the same rights in law as other sports.

I ?get? that you are passionate about the preservation of caves ? this thread is not about that. May I suggest you start a new thread that is not dedicated to the specific legal issue(s) being discussed in this one.

Ian
 

NigR

New member
Kenilworth said:
I do not care who Stuart is or what his job is or why he is doing it.

One of the most insulting, outright ignorant remarks (matched, just possibly, by one of his earlier comments aimed at Tim Allen) that I have ever read on this forum.

Well, I recently came across the following quotation by an American caver on Facebook (talking about ukCaving):

"It was way better than Cavechat but now there is another American posting on it that no one can stand. I'm like...hey...just give us a bad name by being a shithead on their forum...gee thanks!"

So, Kenilworth butty, please do everyone a favour (British and American cavers all) and head back to Cavechat now (or are you banned?).


 

Kenilworth

New member
Nig, I have made no personal insult to Mr. France. Who he is or why he acts are unimportant. The content of the message is all I care about.

Ian, legal issues aren't being discussed here. People are being urged to petition, to act. That is a moral issue. They will need to be, or at least should be, motivated by some principle or at least logic.
 
Isn't the guiding principle "we would like to make access to caves easier cos it's fun to go caving, and we would like to encourage more people to go caving because it's fun to go caving, we're all getting old and we don't want caving to die out, and we want the local area to benefit from the associated tourism"
 

Ian Adams

Active member
Kenilworth said:
? I have made no personal insult to Mr. France.

Whether you intended to or not, you have. If you have any decency you would retract the insult(s). Your continued denial of your action suggests either gross ignorance or a perverse subversion.


Kenilworth said:
Ian, legal issues aren't being discussed here. People are being urged to petition, to act. That is a moral issue.


Either you are being deliberately mischievous, deliberately obfuscating the issue or you just simply do not understand.

Cavers are being urged to petition to have our sport recognised in law and benefit from the same opportunities as others do. This thread is specifically about the legal issue (the header of the thread is more than obvious).

Please stop hijacking this discussion with your ?moral opinion?. Again, if you would like to discuss the moral implications of caving (or anything else) please start a new thread.

Ian


 

corax

New member
I recommend our American friend reads the Welsh government consultation document to which the CCC "campaign" is in response to before expressing his views on a political system that he has no say in.

https://consultations.gov.wales/consultations/taking-forward-wales-sustainable-management-natural-resources
 

droid

Active member
NewStuff isn't a stereotype, he simply is what he is. 

He's not changed his attitude, despite prompts to do so throughout his tenure on this forum.

And he says what he thinks concisely and candidly, unlike some others that confuse long words with erudition

Carry on, pal. I might not agree with all you say but I totally respect your honesty and lack of politicking.
 

royfellows

Well-known member
It was a joke. I respect honesty, but would put things a little differently.
We met once and got on great.
Right Mr N?
 

NewStuff

New member
royfellows said:
We met once and got on great.
Right Mr N?

Indeed we have met Roy, that incline was a beauty.  I'm not one to say nice things if I don't like someone. You do good work, I respect that.

I'll call it as I see it, and I will not be bullied into doing otherwise, despite the best efforts of certain... people... that hold differing viewpoints.
 

Stuart France

Active member
No offence taken, but it is a fact that if some remark is not likely to be constructive then it is probably best left unspoken.

It is also a fact that if you serve in a national level organisation that deals with government departments, and organisations akin to your own, then you are operating in a political world.  The government here has asked the people for feedback on some questions and proposals of theirs in a formal consultation on, amongst other things, recreational access in the countryside.  It is not wrong morally, or from any other perspective, therefore to send one's own thoughtful response to them, or to write briefly to them supporting such as the CCC?s detailed response.

There are five large caves on CRoW Access Land in Wales that have gates.  Those gates have been there a long time for good reasons.  CCC is suggesting that one of these five can be retired because it was installed while the cave entrance in question was at the ?digging? stage, but since then it has been stabilised, and the other entrance into the same cave does not have any gate.  We?ve given reasons why the other four cave gates should be retained and put onto a more formal footing by the application of statutory conservation measures to them.  The regulatory impact of implementing all the above is thus minimal, practical and affordable.

There are approaching forty other caves on Access Land here significant enough to have guide book descriptions which have been ?de facto? open for decades and have never been gated.  CCC has said that these should remain open and that public access into them should be put on the same ?de jure? basis as applies to the landscapes that surround these caves.

I really cannot see why these simple and logical propositions should raise such a storm.

 

Kenilworth

New member
It was nighttime here when I began to post on this thread. Perhaps addle-brained from sleeplessness or simply foolish, I spoke poorly. It has been written that one meddling in a quarrel that is not his is as one grabbing hold of the ears of a dog. So I went into the woods to work out an apology.

I am sorry. No matter my intentions, not only is my input into this topic unneeded, it is doomed to lead to destructiveness. It was also said that where there is no wood the fire goes out. So I think that this should be the end of my commenting on British speleo-political matters.

To conclude my involvement is such debates I will say finally that I feel great affection for British caves and cavers whom I have never met, as well as for the British countryside that I have met only barely. However I believe firmly that cavers are inching toward the full enactment of a curse on those places which have so far held to some of their integrity. And I agree with Faulkner, who knew what he meant when he wrote that the land cries out for vengeance, and will exact it, and is doing.

Stuart, my specific apology to you.
 

cap n chris

Well-known member
MJenkinson said:
Isn't the guiding principle "we would like to make access to caves easier cos it's fun to go caving, and we would like to encourage more people to go caving because it's fun to go caving, we're all getting old and we don't want caving to die out, and we want the local area to benefit from the associated tourism"

Yes, but add in the rider "..while paying lip-service to conservation, and pretty much ignoring it".
 

Mattrees

Member
Stuart France said:
There are five large caves on CRoW Access Land in Wales that have gates.  Those gates have been there a long time for good reasons.  CCC is suggesting that one of these five can be retired because it was installed while the cave entrance in question was at the ?digging? stage, but since then it has been stabilised, and the other entrance into the same cave does not have any gate.  We?ve given reasons why the other four cave gates should be retained and put onto a more formal footing by the application of statutory conservation measures to them.  The regulatory impact of implementing all the above is thus minimal, practical and affordable.

What are the five?
  • Agen Allwedd
  • Tunnel Cave
  • Ogof Cnwc (the one marked for retirement)
  • OFD (Top Entrance)
 
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