What's your cowstail & ascender setup...?

[JAshley73]

New vertical caver here. I have a full kit of vertical gear, but am still in the new "how should I best set this up?" phase...

How do you all have your cowstails, and ascending gear setup on your harness' D-ring? I'm looking for ideas...

I have a "Frog" ascending setup. I'm assuming that's how you UK cavers describe them too? Petzl Omni joining the harness. Petzl Croll L for the progress-capture chest ascender. Handed ascender with foot loop for climbing.

My question though - How do you have your ascenders, and cowstails setup? Are your ascenders attached to the cowstails? Do you have separate long/short cowstails with carabiners for clipping into things, and then your ascenders on a separate cowstail/tether?

Add to this, we were taught to use a 3rd ascender labeled QAS - "Quick Attach Safety" - for adding to the rope for changeovers. Not sure if this is commonplace or not. We add this 3rd ascender above where our rappel device would be. Step up in our footloop to take weight off the chest ascender, then remove the chest ascender from the rope. Then sit back into the harness putting weight onto the foot-ascender, or QAS/3rd ascender. Rig your rappel device, and so on....


So, how do you all have your ascenders attached to your D-ring? Attached to your cowstails? On their own separate tethers? Dedicated cowstails for krabs, then separate tethers for each ascender?

Just looking for some idea, options, advice, etc...

 

[hannahb]

Hiya, there have been many discussions on this. I'll dig some out if I can find them. Other may beat me to it.

Very briefly: Most people have two cowstails, one long and one short, attached to the central maillon (your Omni) by a knot, and in addition they have what's known as a "safety cord" attaching the hand jammer to the central maillon. Others use the continental system, and don't have a safety cord, but use a cowstail instead.

The third ascender is very unusual in the UK in my experience, and unnecessary in my opinion.

 

[hannahb]

p s. Where are you based / where did you learn SRT?

 

[JAshley73]

p s. Where are you based / where did you learn SRT?

I'm in Kentucky, USA, a couple hours north of the famous Mammoth Cave system. I learned SRT through veterans with a local conservancy.

 

[hannahb]

Here's the most recent thread:

Falling on Cows Tails

Might be of interest

ukcaving.com

 

[hannahb]

This is mine. The yellow rope is the safety cord, the white and black are the footloop. The chest jammer goes directly on the central maillon. The cowstails are purple and have a figure of 8 knot between them, which attached them to the central maillon. When I'm wearing it, the Simple is left-most on the central maillon, and the cowstails are on the right.

 

[hannahb]

This is my husband's. He uses his longer cowstail instead of a safety cord.

 

[dougle89]

I asked similar recently, and have my setup pretty much a mix between HannahB's and her husband, my footloop and safety link are one piece of rope, to the left of the ascender when looking down, and then descender between this and the ascender. Cowstails far left for me. I'd also check out derek Bristol on youtube or via his website https://www.derekbristol.com/

 

[JAshley73]

I asked similar recently. I'd also check out derek Bristol on youtube or via his website https://www.derekbristol.com/

Oh, I keep rewatching Derek's videos over and over for this... I realize others have different preferences, but he's done a great service with those videos, providing a reference for us newbies.

It's nice to hear and see other's setups for ideas, and thinking over.

@hannahb Thank you for posting yours, and your husband's kit. My wife and I are both in the "trial & error" mode with our vertical kits. Santa has brought us some more gear to experiment with, including some 10mm climbing rope that I hope to rig in our garage/attic very soon.

 

[topcat]

Wow, with a short cows tail that long he must be 8' tall

I sometimes use the same system in really tight caves, otherwise I do like most folk and have a separate safety cord.

L to R I rack: safety cord if I'm using one, cows tails , Stop or Simple, Croll. My braking krab is in an unusual position so I won't confuse matters and I'll keep that a secret

 

[andrewmcleod]

I think a third ascender might be useful for edge passing in the American 'indestructible rope technique' approach, where the main rope goes over a massive rope protector and you have a short separate rope dropping down for passing the edge which you want to transfer onto/off and no intermediate anchors to clip into while you transfer from rope to rope?

But for Alpine-style SRT with (almost) no edges and lots of rebelays, it's pretty redundant because you nearly always have something to clip directly into, and a cowstail is arguably a better safety attachment than an ascender (when you consider shock loading etc.).

When you say 'we were taught to use a 3rd ascender [...] for adding to the rope for changeovers' do you mean changeover as in up-to-down (or down-to-up), or transfer sideways from one rope to another? You don't need a third ascender to change direction safely on the same rope (although it's easy to get hung up on your hand ascender when going up-to-down if you don't get the positioning right), but a third ascender does simplify going from rope to rope. Most UK cavers would, I think, if going up and switching to another rope up mid-rope put their descender on below their ascenders and lock it off as a backup (or just tie a knot in the rope and clip it with a cowstail).

In the UK, there are only three common styles of ascender set-up:
1) Two cowstails, and a combined footloop-and-safety cord (often 8mm cord or thin rope). Standard on 'club' SRT kits but still common in personal kit.
2) Two cowstails, a footloop on the ascender (often sling/dyneema), and a safety cord (piece of dynamic rope linking central maillon and ascender).
3) Two cowstails, a footloop on the ascender, and the long cowstail is clipped into the hand ascender when in use ('Alpine style').

I have a Petzl dyneema adjustable footloop, and a short length of 9mm dynamic rope for the safety cord. Mine is currently excessively long and I should really shorten it. It is normally a similar length to long cowstails or slightly longer so that you can still reach the ascender easily if you end up dangling from it but not so short it makes certain manoeuvres difficult (changeover up-to-down being the classic).

 

[JAshley73]

I think a third ascender might be useful for edge passing in the American 'indestructible rope technique' approach, where the main rope goes over a massive rope protector...

When you say 'we were taught to use a 3rd ascender [...] for adding to the rope for changeovers' do you mean changeover as in up-to-down (or down-to-up), or transfer sideways from one rope to another? You don't need a third ascender to change direction safely on the same rope (although it's easy to get hung up on your hand ascender when going up-to-down if you don't get the positioning right), but a third ascender does simplify going from rope to rope.

We use the 3rd ascender for that too, yes. Clipping onto the rope when near an edge. Adds a clip-in point, to keep us from falling over the edge, even if we're just walking or standing about...

But we were taught to use it for our changeover, from going up & down, or vice-versa on the same rope. I've heard many people say that it's redundant. I can sort of see how, but it's a nice measure of security. It's the "first" thing we do in such an event when we're switching gear, while on rope. Clip the QAS (3rd ascender) onto the rope. Then go about our business.



(Let me add the disclaimer too, that I'm still a newbie at this. Nothing that I say or describe here should be taken with 100% full faith & confidence that I'm correctly representing everything that I was taught. When new like I am, certainly the possibility exists that I may be confused about some of the finer details.)

 

[JAshley73]

I see now that people prefer to detach their foot loops, and foot-ascender from their kit when not in use. I can see the value in that. I currently have my foot-ascender permanently attached to a cowstail with a mallion screw link.

Not sure if I want to keep this setup, or remove the foot ascender when not in use. Honestly, I like the security of having it permanently affixed. Less chance of dropping it below. Maybe in time, I'll change my mind on that.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

Use at own risk and only after you have tested/practiced in a safe place. This may be non standard and not endorsed use of kit.

One thing I wish I'd learned years earlier is to wear my chest harness incorrectly. I have one of the type like Petzl Torse or Petzl Secur which is a tape strap behind the head and threads through the kroll like in hannahb pictures although with an (unnecessary?) riser at the back. Anyway what I really like is to put my right arm through the strap so the left side with adjuster buckle goes over my left shoulder as normal but on the the right side it goes diagonally across my back and under my right armpit. This holds the Kroll much tighter into my chest (when done up really tight) keeping me much more upright. Beware that not done carefully the kroll can move out of centre towards your left nipple and put the kroll at a slight angle -- avoid that. Not particularly bad with a kroll L but with a camp turbochest the rope can sit really badly in the ascender in that situation when sit standing. Use at your judgement.

I also use a Petzl pantin foot ascender, personally I like left foot for Pantin as I have the foot loop for hand ascender on my right foot. Opinions will differ here: there's a little optional plastic spring clip thing Petzl sell to make the rope stay in the Pantin and not keep falling out if you let your foot go a bit toe down or clumsy movements, but it does mean you need to release it with your hand not just kick the rope out, so in very tight space ascents it's unhelpful.

The combination of the foot ascender and incorrect under right armpit chest strap method means when next to a wall with relative ease I step left-right-left-right and just walk up the rope (not sit stand). In free hanging rope I can still walk up the rope but it's a bit more of an effort and I find myself sit-stand to conserve energy unless only a short ascent.

 

[ChrisB]

I'm in Kentucky, USA

As I've understood it, rigging styles differ between USA and Europe (perhaps due to the nature of the pitches?). We use rebelays and deviations to avoid any contact at all between the rock and the rope, so use lighter ropes and only rarely would use rope protectors. The rebelays mean we use cowstails more.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I see now that people prefer to detach their foot loops, and foot-ascender from their kit when not in use. I can see the value in that. I currently have my foot-ascender permanently attached to a cowstail with a mallion screw link.

Not sure if I want to keep this setup, or remove the foot ascender when not in use. Honestly, I like the security of having it permanently affixed. Less chance of dropping it below. Maybe in time, I'll change my mind on that.

Plenty of British people use the 'safety cord' to keep their hand (foot) ascender semi-permanently attached to them. I recommend using a locking carabiner (I use a triple-action) rather than a maillon because then you have a 'third' cowstail on traverses (you can either attach the ascender, or just clip the ascender's carabiner onto the rope).

This is, I believe, much less common in European countries where presumably they are just better at not dropping their stuff? Personally I'd rather have the extra bit of rope, not be able to drop my hand ascender, and have a third cowstail when required.

 

[IanWalker]

Plenty of British people use the 'safety cord' to keep their hand (foot) ascender semi-permanently attached to them. I recommend using a locking carabiner (I use a triple-action) rather than a maillon because then you have a 'third' cowstail on traverses (you can either attach the ascender, or just clip the ascender's carabiner onto the rope).

The safety 'cord' should ideally be made of dynamic rope - this is especially important if using as a cowstail.

Any safety cord can be used to clip in, if an additional karabiner is available.

Using jammers on traverses needs particular care

 

[JAshley73]

So it seems like there's not one particular method for attaching your climbing ascender. Some keep it affixed. Some keep it permanently attached.

I'm personally fine with keeping everything attached to the D-ring, but I see that it might get crowded here soon. I would potentially end up with (4) cowstails coming off the D-ring. Two for carabiners. Two for the foot/climbing ascender, and 3rd/safety ascender.

Maybe I'll move the foot-climbing ascender to a locking krab, onto the D-ring?

In any case, using 10% stretch, 10mm rope for my cowstails and other ascender attachments. We have enough currently for (4) cowstails for myself, and my wife each.

 

[JoshW]

I'm personally fine with keeping everything attached to the D-ring, but I see that it might get crowded here soon. I would potentially end up with (4) cowstails coming off the D-ring. Two for carabiners. Two for the foot/climbing ascender, and 3rd/safety ascender

This sentence confuses the hell out of me.

I have two cowstails and they come off the same bit of rope so one knot on the cowstails. Why do you need 2 for foot/climbing ascender

 

[JAshley73]

This sentence confuses the hell out of me.

I have two cowstails and they come off the same bit of rope so one knot on the cowstails. Why do you need 2 for foot/climbing ascender

One 10-foot, (2.5 meter) dynamic rope, with an alpine butterfly, tied around the D-ring. Two un-equal lengths coming off of it. Get's krabs on each strand.

Potentially, a 2nd 10-foot dynamic rope with same alpine butterfly around the D-ring. Having my foot/climbing ascender on one length, and the 3rd/safety ascender on the other end.