What's your cowstail & ascender setup...?

[Fjell]

It's also to do with the length of a single drop of rope on a pitch.
People here can offer more complete info on long runs of rope but I don't think in the UK we've got that many pitches that don't rebelay or something and have a single drop of rope longer than about 60m.

Obviously people will be itching to suggest things like dihedral direct (120m advised on rigging guide but there's a bit of rigging in jib tunnel so maybe it's) "only" 100m in one drop?? or GG main hang 90m in a single drop from the roof rift to floor, or Titan 2nd pitch 70 something (needing 80m rope) etc, etc but these are unusual here.

But the pits in the TAG area are famous for their big pitches, can't fail to mention Fantastic at 178m. (I'd love to try that, be a lot of ascending back up!). That's not something you'd want to do on a Petzl stop. Imagine the struggle fighting to feed rope in the first 100m, probably a series of periods of swearing and no movement - interspersed with short freefalls with even more vigorous swearing. Then smelling burning rope and not daring to stop moving (unless the rope was wet) as you got into the lower section. It'd be a horrific choice of descender 🤣 there. But "horses for courses" bobbins are the perfect choice for some other locations.

I have rigged a 160m freehang with a Stop on newish 10mm Marlow on very dry rope (most people on trip used a Stop). Basically 200m drums worth in a Petzl Transport I seem to remember. I didn’t have any trouble getting down, but it got toasty by the bottom. Need gloves. The rope didn’t get muddy in use, so that’s a point.

Very spooky as it quickly breaks out in chamber with roof disappearing in all directions and you are still over 400’ off floor. That’s not my pic, my rig went down centre of entrance using deviations. Interesting discussion that, use of deviation at top of 160m pitch. Nobody died.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

I have rigged a 160m freehang with a Stop on newish 10mm Marlow on very dry rope (most people on trip used a Stop). Basically 200m drums worth in a Petzl Transport I seem to remember. I didn’t have any trouble getting down, but it got toasty by the bottom. Need gloves. The rope didn’t get muddy in use, so that’s a point.

Very spooky as it quickly breaks out in chamber with roof disappearing in all directions and you are still over 400’ off floor. That’s not my pic, my rig went down centre of entrance using deviations. Interesting discussion that, use of deviation at top of 160m pitch. Nobody died.

View attachment 17854

Hope I'm not digressing your thread JAshley73, WOW, that sounds a big outing. I'm assuming it was old stop not "improved" stop, very impressive distance for a stop. Where is it? I'm guessing it's not the Mendips

 

[Fjell]

Hope I'm not digressing your thread JAshley73, WOW, that sounds a big outing. I'm assuming it was old stop not "improved" stop, very impressive distance for a stop. Where is it? I'm guessing it's not the Mendips

It’s a fairly sizeable isolated chamber overlying the main Selmeh Plateau system in Oman. An interesting day out, if a bit freaky. There are also pitches in the 100m range in three of the systems entrances. The system is just under 400m deep to the fossil resurgence so a fair amount of the drop is in the entrances before hitting the main drain. Of about 12km passage I think maybe 2m was dug (pebbles and goat shit), so plenty of scope for a caver somehow tired of the bright lights of Mendip. The current resurgence was assumed to be a spring about 1000m lower feeding an old falaj.

This is the fossil (flood overflow) resurgence, it’s about 100m in diameter by this point, about 3-4km from an upper entrance. Interesting though trip.

 

[Fjell]

There is a photo in an NSS journal which has a Huey hovering in the entrance. Wot larx eh?

 

[JAshley73]

Coming back to this thread, as I've had the chance to practice some changeovers recently. After some struggles, and watching a couple others perform changeovers, I think I've finally come to understanding where the confusion comes from, regarding the 3rd ascender, which we call the "Quick Attach Safety."



Speaking specifically of changing from climbing, to rappelling....

We were taught to rig in the descender (in our case, a rack) ABOVE the chest ascender. We disconnect the chest ascender from the rope, thread the rope into our racks, then use the foot-ascender, and the 3rd/QAS ascender to down-climb, until the rack is weighted.

After a video showing a British caver changing over, I see that the bobbin is placed BELOW the chest ascender. That process allows the two ascenders to stay on the rope, until ready to down-climb to weigh the bobbin.

I don't think this is so much an issue of rack vs. bobbin, but rather, weather the rappell device is threaded into the rope above, or below the chest ascender.

It's possible that I may be confused, but I feel like things are making more sense now...

 

[ChrisB]

We were taught to rig in the descender (in our case, a rack) ABOVE the chest ascender.

Do you have any idea why that was considered the best way? I haven't tried it, but I expect it would be easier to see what you're doing and so less chance of threading the descender incorrectly?

 

[JoshW]

We were taught to rig in the descender (in our case, a rack) ABOVE the chest ascender.

I can’t get my head around how you’re going to rig a deacender on a taught rope

We disconnect the chest ascender from the rope, thread the rope into our racks,

So whilst you’re rigging the rack you’re hanging just off of your hand jammer? And if so I can’t get my head around how you’ll then use that to down prussick until the rack takes the weight.

Definitely think I need to see a video of this 🤔

 

[Fjell]

Do you have any idea why that was considered the best way? I haven't tried it, but I expect it would be easier to see what you're doing and so less chance of threading the descender incorrectly?

Long racks. It’s a pig to do it below the chest ascender as the rope feeds in the top of the rack creating a large distance between there and the chest ascender. I bent a rack eye when I got the krab twisted sitting down passing a knot. Not the best place to do it up in the air.

If you hang off a second jammer you greatly shorten or eliminate that slack. It’s a good idea assuming you won’t just use a bobbin.

 

[JAshley73]

I can’t get my head around how you’re going to rig a deacender on a taught rope

Definitely think I need to see a video of this 🤔

We can't obviously. We are hanging by our foot-ascender/cowstail.

We add a 2nd hand ascender as a "safety."
We disconnect the Croll/chest ascender from the rope.
Thread the rope into the rack.
Downclimb the two hand-ascenders until the rack is weighted.
Test rappell.
Remove hand ascenders.

Rappell on down.

 

[JAshley73]

I must admit, before today, I couldn't fathom all of this confusion. But in fact, we've been talking past each other, simply because I/We didn't understand the different methods, and the WHY/WHERE the rack is attached to the rope, during a changeover...



The presumed "Correct" way that you beloved British cavers do it...

And the way us backwards, American rednecks do it...

I would add, that before removing our ascender(s) and beginning the rappel, we'd test the rappel device for an inch or two, lock off again, and then remove the ascenders.

 

[JoshW]

We add a 2nd hand ascender as a "safety."

Ahhh this makes sense

 

[ChrisB]

I don't think this is so much an issue of rack vs. bobbin, but rather, weather the rappell device is threaded into the rope above, or below the chest ascender.

But following Fjell's post, it may be that above or below is actually driven by rack vs bobbin.

 

[JAshley73]

But following Fjell's post, it may be that above or below is actually driven by rack vs bobbin.

Fair enough.

 

[cap n chris]

Can't figure out why the woman with the rack needed to stand up to connect the chest ascender. I'd have just done so while hanging, without burning any energy at all. Just sayin.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Can't figure out why the woman with the rack needed to stand up to connect the chest ascender. I'd have just done so while hanging, without burning any energy at all. Just sayin.

I was also wondering this; reminds me of people who, when going up past a rebelay, do the awkward stand-up-balance dance while trying to put the new rope in their Croll when they could just sit down again on their short cowstail and do it in comfort (obviously this works best if you have stopped in the right place i.e. not too high, just above where you can get your short cowstail in).

 

[Fjell]

Just think of it as passing a rebelay going down, you hang off the short cowstail while you transfer. All you are doing is replacing the belay with a jammer. You could in fact simply place a jammer on the rope and clip into it, then remove your chest ascender. Load rack and unclip from jammer by standing up. Then remove extra jammer followed by upper jammer.

 

[langcliffe]

I was also wondering this; reminds me of people who, when going up past a rebelay, do the awkward stand-up-balance dance while trying to put the new rope in their Croll when they could just sit down again on their short cowstail and do it in comfort (obviously this works best if you have stopped in the right place i.e. not too high, just above where you can get your short cowstail in).

I tend to do this, especially if the rebelay is close to the wall. I find that it is a slick operation, taking no more than a couple of seconds, and doesn't require any disco moves. For hanging rebelays where it is difficult to stabilise oneself, I tend to sit down on my cowstail.

 

[cap n chris]

Just think of it as passing a rebelay going down, you hang off the short cowstail while you transfer. All you are doing is replacing the belay with a jammer. You could in fact simply place a jammer on the rope and clip into it, then remove your chest ascender. Load rack and unclip from jammer by standing up. Then remove extra jammer followed by upper jammer.

I do this with a Stop for changeovers. Ascent to descent similarly. Hang on the jammer and changeover accordingly.

 

[pwhole]

I've noticed that many cavers really don't like hanging only from their cowstails, almost as though they didn't trust them, which is an interesting concept.

Jammers make great belays though, treated carefully. A few weeks ago I had to de-rig a rope and some anchors in a building wall a metre below the gutter line, but the abseil rope was frozen solid after being in a hard frost overnight and would never go into a descender, so I added a hand hammer to it, clipped my 4m Grillion into it and abseiled over the edge on that - worked a treat.

 

[cap n chris]

Indeed. It is totally bizarre to me that cavers seem averse to hanging from a single cows tail and yet are aok on their single point descender. If you don't trust your cows tail perhaps you shouldn't be caving.