What's your cowstail & ascender setup...?

[ChrisB]

As Josh says: I have one knot on my D for my two cowstails, and one for the leash to my hand ascender.

I don't understand what the safety ascender is for. 'Safety' suggests that it's for preventing a fall, but falling onto ascenders is not recommended, as the ascender will strip the sheath off the rope at a relatively low load.

An alpine butterfly is a good knot for loading along the main rope as well as from the loop. That kind of loading won't happen on where a cowstail meets your D. A simple overhand in the bight is much less bulky.

 

[JAshley73]

As Josh says: I have one knot on my D for my two cowstails, and one for the leash to my hand ascender.

I don't understand what the safety ascender is for. 'Safety' suggests that it's for preventing a fall, but falling onto ascenders is not recommended, as the ascender will strip the sheath off the rope at a relatively low load.

The 3rd ascender is used before dropping the pitch, when you're standing near the ledge, and don't want to fall over. Clip in with the 3rd/safety ascender.



We also use this as the first step when beginning a change-over, mid-drop.

When going down, changing over to go up. Lock off the rappel device, then add the 3rd descender above it. Then add the foot/climbing ascender. Remove the rappel device, clip the chest ascender to the rope. Remove the 3rd ascender, and begin climbing.

When going up, changing over to go down. Add the 3rd ascender first. Then remove the chest ascender from the rope. Thread the rope into your rappel device. Remove the foot/climbing ascender. Test the rappel device. Remove the 3rd/safety ascender, and rappel down.



We also add the 3rd/safety descender to the rope at the top of drops, before threading the ropes into our rappel devices. Test the rappel device, remove the 3rd/safety ascender, then begin the rappel. This obviously could be done with the foot/climbing ascender. However, the idea with the 3rd ascender is that it's Always attached to the D-ring, and thus available. Which is why we call it the QAS - Quick Attach Safety. If the foot/climbing ascender is stowed away on a gear-loop perhaps, it can't be used quickly in scenarios like this.



Yes, I realize the 3rd ascender is redundant in some scenarios. But the idea, is that it's always available. And guarantees two points of contact with the rope during changeover maneuvers. Until I know more through experience, I'll keep this 3rd ascender as part of my kit, per the advice of our instructors. Fair enough, right?

 

[Fulk]

When going down, changing over to go up. Lock off the rappel device, then add the 3rd descender above it. Then add the foot/climbing ascender. Remove the rappel device, clip the chest ascender to the rope. Remove the 3rd ascender, and begin climbing.

When going up, changing over to go down. Add the 3rd ascender first. Then remove the chest ascender from the rope. Thread the rope into your rappel device. Remove the foot/climbing ascender. Test the rappel device. Remove the 3rd/safety ascender, and rappel down.

I think that what most UK cavers would do in these situations is:

Down to up: Lock off descender, install foot-jammer on rope a little way above the descender, stand up in foot-loop, attach chest-jammer between top foot-jammer and descender, then remove descender, so we'd still have two points of attachment (apart from when going down, of course!).

Up to down: Install descender below jammers, lock it off; stand up in foot-loop, remove chest-jammer, sit back down onto descender and then remove foot-jammer (after testing descender).

 

[ChrisB]

For changeovers, I do as Fulk says, always having the descender or both ascenders attached.

We also add the 3rd/safety descender to the rope at the top of drops, before threading the ropes into our rappel devices. Test the rappel device, remove the 3rd/safety ascender, then begin the rappel. This obviously could be done with the foot/climbing ascender.

We would clip a cowstail into the rigging. One of the points that was stressed to me when learning rigging was to make sure that it's suitable for that, taking account of the height and arm length of group members. I prefer a cowstail in that situation because in order to test the descender, it has to have at least some slack, and I don't like having any slack between me and a jammer if I'm using it as a backup.

However, the idea with the 3rd ascender is that it's Always attached to the D-ring, and thus available. Which is why we call it the QAS - Quick Attach Safety. If the foot/climbing ascender is stowed away on a gear-loop perhaps, it can't be used quickly in scenarios like this.

Maybe that's why most UK cavers have a leash on their hand jammer, unlike continental Europe. Should I need to attach a jammer in a hurry, it's attached (the footloop won't be in the way if I don't need it, but sometimes I would need it).

I'm not saying the way you do it is wrong, just explaining why we do it the way we do, since that's your question.

 

[Fjell]

When going up, changing over to go down. Add the 3rd ascender first. Then remove the chest ascender from the rope. Thread the rope into your rappel device. Remove the foot/climbing ascender. Test the rappel device. Remove the 3rd/safety ascender, and rappel down.

I can’t visualise how this works. At some point you have to release what you are sitting on to load the descender. I assume the jammers in the passage above are reversed? You use the footloop to take off the 3rd jammer you have been hanging on?

I can sort of see why you would do this. One of the reasons I stopped using a long rack in the ‘80’s is the absolute arse you get into doing manoeuvres like changing over (there are worse issues, but lets stick with this one). If you could switch to a jammer on a shortish strop you would get more rope to play with above the D. I bent the eye on a Petzl rack doing such a manoeuvre - it was my last rack.

I have never seen any technical reason to use a rack on US-style IRT rigging either beyond the sheer stiffness of old 11mm+ rope, but variety is no doubt the spice of life.

 

[JAshley73]

When going up, changing over to go down. Add the 3rd ascender first. Then remove the chest ascender from the rope. Thread the rope into your rappel device. Remove the foot/climbing ascender. Test the rappel device. Remove the 3rd/safety ascender, and rappel down.

I can’t visualise how this works. At some point you have to release what you are sitting on to load the descender. I assume the jammers in the passage above are reversed? You use the footloop to take off the 3rd jammer you have been hanging on?

You are correct in that the foot/climbing ascender must be in-play at some point. If I'm explaining this poorly, it's from lack of experience.

I can sort of see why you would do this. One of the reasons I stopped using a long rack in the ‘80’s is the absolute arse you get into doing manoeuvres like changing over (there are worse issues, but lets stick with this one). If you could switch to a jammer on a shortish strop you would get more rope to play with above the D. I bent the eye on a Petzl rack doing such a manoeuvre - it was my last rack.

I have never seen any technical reason to use a rack on US-style IRT rigging either beyond the sheer stiffness of old 11mm+ rope, but variety is no doubt the spice of life.

I asked "Why racks over bobbins" in my vertical class. It was explained that on the larger ropes preferred here in the USA, especially with lighter-weight cavers, and with muddy ropes, etc, that the bobbins might just generate too much friction to even get moving. I guess one could rig the bobbin in a "C" configuration if we had to. The racks are nice however, in that we can really vary the friction by removing bars, spreading bars, etc, to keep moving how we'd like.

I do agree that they're somewhat cumbersome. But being new, we're going with the gear and system that we've been taught. I imagine that at some point I might move to a Petzl Stop - that is, when I'm more experienced, and knowing better...




Let me also say that 200 miles south in the "TAG" region (Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia) the caves are quite a bit different than in my local area. They have LOTS of vertical pits, pit entrances, and so on. Their entrance-pit rigging is 99% tying a big rope to a big tree, and rappelling down. Lots of folks here, like my wife for example, enjoy just the vertical aspect of "bouncing pits" - rappelling down rope and climbing back up - and care very little about the horizontal caving found below.

Here in Kentucky, we have big horizontal caves. There is some vertical here, but nothing like the TAG region. For the most part, we could use bobbins here and be fine. But in the TAG region, racks are considered a must-have.

 

[cap n chris]

Mine is in accordance with the layout in Alpine Caving Techniques (a fine book but significantly out dated now), namely connecting the handjammer and footloop to the longer safety connector, with the orientation of gear on the central Omni such that nothing impedes the opening of the chest jammer. I also favour grillons, or adjustable lanyards, and totally love my Harken industries Ninjas foot jammer. Happy with a variety of descenders but the Stop or Rig or ID are my current choices. The UK club anachronistic use of the Cord of Shame has never made any sense to me but if it floats your boat knock yourself out sunshine.

 

[JasonC]

Yes, I realize the 3rd ascender is redundant in some scenarios. But the idea, is that it's always available. And guarantees two points of contact with the rope during changeover maneuvers. Until I know more through experience, I'll keep this 3rd ascender as part of my kit, per the advice of our instructors. Fair enough, right?

Yes, fair enough. I think the important thing is that you're comfortable with your set-up (as long as it's not demonstrably unsafe, obviously). As this thread illustrates, there are a dozen ways of doing SRT, they're not all wrong.

 

[cap n chris]

I always smile when the expression "two points of contact" gets rolled out in an SRT context. When people are descending, where are your TPoC? Or your harness central connector's TPoC?

 

[Fjell]

Mine is in accordance with the layout in Alpine Caving Techniques (a fine book but significantly out dated now), namely connecting the handjammer and footloop to the longer safety connector, with the orientation of gear on the central Omni such that nothing impedes the opening of the chest jammer. I also favour grillons, or adjustable lanyards, and totally love my Harken industries Ninjas foot jammer. Happy with a variety of descenders but the Stop or Rig or ID are my current choices. The UK club anachronistic use of the Cord of Shame has never made any sense to me but if it floats your boat knock yourself out sunshine.

If I don’t permanently tie on my footjammer I will regularly drop it for sure. It’s also my third cowstail. I connect it to the bottom of the D, which is possibly a crime against decency.

I really don’t get this “cord of shame” nonsense. I use some 8mm dynamic now, but used some 8mm superstatic for many years. When you consider the duty, which is failure of the chest ascender, 8mm cord is considerably over specified. The jammer is going to fail or trash the rope well below the breaking strength.

 

[hyweldavies]

I always smile when the expression "two points of contact" gets rolled out in an SRT context. When people are descending, where are your TPoC? Or your harness central connector's TPoC?

I was taught that a descender or a cow's tail was a full point of contact, but an ascender is only a half point of contact. Maybe the explanation of needing one full contact with a half being insufficient is what was really meant?

 

[Fjell]

Mine is in accordance with the layout in Alpine Caving Techniques (a fine book but significantly out dated now), namely connecting the handjammer and footloop to the longer safety connector, with the orientation of gear on the central Omni such that nothing impedes the opening of the chest jammer. I also favour grillons, or adjustable lanyards, and totally love my Harken industries Ninjas foot jammer. Happy with a variety of descenders but the Stop or Rig or ID are my current choices. The UK club anachronistic use of the Cord of Shame has never made any sense to me but if it floats your boat knock yourself out sunshine.

If I don’t permanently tie on my footjammer I will regularly drop it for sure. It’s also my third cowstail. I connect it to the bottom of the D, which is possibly a crime against decency.

I really don’t get this “cord of shame” nonsense. I use some 8mm dynamic now, but used some 8mm superstatic for many years. When you consider the duty, which is failure of the chest ascender, 8mm cord is considerably over specified. The jammer is going to fail or trash the rope well below the breaking strength

 

[LarryFatcat]

This is my husband's. He uses his longer cowstail instead of a safety cord.
View attachment 17841

This is a continental set-up (though tape footloop, difficult to adjust, liable to wear, will be shut when wet and liable to getting stuck in chest jammer)- in the UK we like the safety link set up (other pic above), in the UK we use an extra safety link to attach the handjammer. I always say cowstail on your left, Stop/descender on the right and whatever order for the other two in the centre. The braking krab is not PPE and can be put where it's comfortable, within reason.

 

[LarryFatcat]

If I don’t permanently tie on my footjammer I will regularly drop it for sure. It’s also my third cowstail. I connect it to the bottom of the D, which is possibly a crime against decency.

I really don’t get this “cord of shame” nonsense. I use some 8mm dynamic now, but used some 8mm superstatic for many years. When you consider the duty, which is failure of the chest ascender, 8mm cord is considerably over specified. The jammer is going to fail or trash the rope well below the breaking strength

If u as I do , especially when rigging, use my safety link as a third cowstail, attaching it at the bottom of the D is both unsafe (if open instant failure) no links are designed to be stressed across the link/opening) and uncomfortable and potentially tangling and it can cause the D Maiilon/Omni to invert. or even open.

 

[Fjell]

If u as I do , especially when rigging, use my safety link as a third cowstail, attaching it at the bottom of the D is both unsafe (if open instant failure) no links are designed to be stressed across the link/opening) and uncomfortable and potentially tangling and it can cause the D Maiilon/Omni to invert. or even open.

I have never found it to be an issue, it pulls to one side and is a back up to a primary cowstail for brief periods. I will snap in half well before any part of that setup breaks. The Onmi triact is sufficiently rated across the gate (15kN) otherwise I wouldn’t use it at all. It can rotate in normal use in my experience and end up sideways when messing about. I always hang a tackle bag from the gate on a loop, where else would it go?

 

[andrewmcleod]

I have never found it to be an issue, it pulls to one side and is a back up to a primary cowstail for brief periods. I will snap in half well before any part of that setup breaks. The Onmi triact is sufficiently rated across the gate (15kN) otherwise I wouldn’t use it at all. It can rotate in normal use in my experience and end up sideways when messing about. I always hang a tackle bag from the gate on a loop, where else would it go?

I don't believe it is rated across the gate (if you mean a loading onto the gate itself). I think it is rated to be loaded between the two corners and the centre of the oval. I would be very surprised if the gate would stand up to 15kN.
In fact, looking at the manual, locking across the gate is marked with the 'DEATH' symbol.

I would not recommend putting a rope on the bottom of an Omni, although if you use a knot with a loop too small to fit over the gate then you could convince yourself loading onto the gate itself can never.

Further edits: the manual does actually show 15kN for loading across the gate, but the 'DEATH' warning remains...

 

[LadyMud]

"I always hang a tackle bag from the gate on a loop, where else would it go?"
I've seen little maillons in the fabric harness loops (below the Omni) for precisely this purpose.

 

[JoshW]

I have a small D carabiner (maybe a CT lime) attached to the right hand side loop on my harness that the central maillln goes through. I attach my safety link (for my hand jammer) to this as well as any bags I’m hauling.

This means only my larks footed cowstails and my croll ‘live’ on the maillon, with my rig making a guest appearance on descents.

 

[topcat]

"I always hang a tackle bag from the gate on a loop, where else would it go?"
I've seen little maillons in the fabric harness loops (below the Omni) for precisely this purpose.

I do this using two small stainless maillons. They are very easy to clip/unclip, unlike a fabric loop.

 

[Cantclimbtom]

.... ... ... in the TAG region, racks are considered a must-have.

It's also to do with the length of a single drop of rope on a pitch.
People here can offer more complete info on long runs of rope but I don't think in the UK we've got that many pitches that don't rebelay or something and have a single drop of rope longer than about 60m.

Obviously people will be itching to suggest things like dihedral direct (120m advised on rigging guide but there's a bit of rigging in jib tunnel so maybe it's) "only" 100m in one drop?? or GG main hang 90m in a single drop from the roof rift to floor, or Titan 2nd pitch 70 something (needing 80m rope) etc, etc but these are unusual here.

But the pits in the TAG area are famous for their big pitches, can't fail to mention Fantastic at 178m. (I'd love to try that, be a lot of ascending back up!). That's not something you'd want to do on a Petzl stop. Imagine the struggle fighting to feed rope in the first 100m, probably a series of periods of swearing and no movement - interspersed with short freefalls with even more vigorous swearing. Then smelling burning rope and not daring to stop moving (unless the rope was wet) as you got into the lower section. It'd be a horrific choice of descender 🤣 there. But "horses for courses" bobbins are the perfect choice for some other locations.