which carabiners for anchors

[IanWalker]

I couldn't find any info on this subjects since most guides refer to permanent rigging with maillons

Light rigging (including use of snaplinks) is discussed in some detail in 'Alpine Caving Techniques' (Marbach and Tourte, 2002), p206-213.

I recommend getting a copy if you are able. Also available as a PDF online, e.g:

Marbach G. - Tourte B.: Alpine Caving Techniques

A complete guide to safe and efficient caving

issuu.com

 

[phizz4]

For many years I have used Clog, then DMM, Twistlock krabs without any issues at all. They are also tied in with a barrel knot or a homemade inner tube securing strap so they stay in their correct orientation. Wouldn’t dream of using a snap gate, in fact I don’t have any snap gates in my caving kit. You can always leave the gate open if you need to.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Having come into caving from climbing, I've always thought it's quite odd that cavers are so adamant about rigging on locking carabiners but then use snapgates as their primary attachment.

There's no good reason why using snapgates in rigging is 'dangerous' in general. Usually it shouldn't matter if any single anchor fails, because we normally expect that bolts _could_ fail. So if a rigging snapgate opens and the rope pops out (which is pretty unlikely, really, due to how they are loaded), that _shouldn't_ matter beyond a small drop and a requirement for new underwear.

If the rigging is crap and you have to rely more than you would like on a single anchor, then use a snapgate. I don't just mean a single-anchor rebelay, because as long as there is a reasonable bit of rope above you (for shock absorption) and nothing below you to hit (i.e. no ledges and ideally this isn't the last rebelay, which is better with doubled anchors) then it's still generally fine if the anchor pops (provided you are using sufficiently robust ropes that you won't destroy them immediately on an edge or something).

Equally if you have used a single bombproof thing (like a massive tree) as your anchor and haven't doubled up on slings, for example, then obviously you need a locking carabiner on it. You also need to be more careful about clipping into snapgates with your cowstails (probably better to clip the knot).

Whereas cowstails carabiners are constantly in use, often end up in weird orientations as you move around, and are likely to be sliding along ropes which also increases the risk of unclipping. I do not have time in my life for screwgates on cowstails, however, and I suspect a lot of screwgate cowstail carabiners are rarely done up. I have Petzl and DMM twistlocks which are fine; I also have a set of Petzl Vertigo via ferrata carabiners for the Dachstein mud where it is hard to grip your twistlock gate.

When we went to the Berger last summer (which the French had rigged as we were just before the international camp) the occasional snapgate deeper in the cave did alarm a few British cavers...

 

[andrewmcleod]

Incidentally the Grivel Plume K3N screwgates, at 37g each, are lovely. I don't actually rig with snapgates for three reasons:
1) I don't have to, and I never do anything hard enough that it would matter
2) I have a load of screwgates (DMM Aeros and ten of the Grivel ones)
3) nobody else would go caving with me...

 

[michael.11]

One of the uses of snap gates on rebelays can be to clip into them with a rope from petzl stop and pull yourself during rebelay, in order to unweight the cowtail (far easier than using rebelay loop). But I guess you can do that with the cowtail carabiner as well.

 

[michael.11]

Having come into caving from climbing, I've always thought it's quite odd that cavers are so adamant about rigging on locking carabiners but then use snapgates as their primary attachment.

There's no good reason why using snapgates in rigging is 'dangerous' in general. Usually it shouldn't matter if any single anchor fails, because we normally expect that bolts _could_ fail.

Maybe because you are never relying on a single cowtail (except for a rare occasions). And that rebelay attachment failure is considered too dangerous due to the large slack?

Anyway does anyone know if Salewa brand is reputable? They have the cheapest and the lightest screw gates where I live (12$, 46 grams, UIAA rated)

 

[Steve Clark]

I would expect them to be absolutely fine. Salewa have been around for decades making alpine gear and a proper history of recalls etc.

Salewa have a small range of carabiners and are unlikely to forging their own. The actual screw gate barrel is identical to that on a CT (Climbing Technology) Lime SG. The forging is very similar too, possibly the previous generation of a CT carabiner. It wouldn't surprise me if CT made some of their hardware.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Maybe because you are never relying on a single cowtail (except for a rare occasions). And that rebelay attachment failure is considered too dangerous due to the large slack?

Unless you have a 'third' cowstails, you'll be on one cowstail quite regularly while moving across a traverse...

Meanwhile, any rebelay where rebelay failure would result in a dangerous fall due to either insufficient rope above to absorb the shock load (of typically 2-3m of slack) or due to a ledge/the floor, should have two bolts. I realise this doesn't always happen in practice...

Equally plenty of people use snapgates quite happily on their cowstails; I don't personally but don't think people are being mad to do so. And the weight advantage of rigging on snapgates over screwgates is pretty minimal; it's not as important as it is in climbing for example.

 

[mikem]

One of the uses of snap gates on rebelays can be to clip into them with a rope from petzl stop and pull yourself during rebelay, in order to unweight the cowtail (far easier than using rebelay loop). But I guess you can do that with the cowtail carabiner as well.

I assume that is why odd anchors in the Berger were set up that way when Andrew was there - saves time & energy, which is important on a long trip.

Choice of rigging krab depends on which factor is most important in keeping you safe, climbers use snaplinks where minimising energy expenditure is of the essence & lower anchors should catch them if first one fails. Cavers can generally afford more time (as hanging in the harness not from their fingertips), plus several people are likely to be relying on those points. On the cliff mentioned previously, everyone would presumably be able to see the orientation of the clips before starting & if necessary they could be corrected from above at any point.

Snaplinks became popular on cavers' cowstails as locking ones can refuse to open (especially if metal dented), take longer to clip in if they've closed themselves whilst on harness, not shut properly if gate has rotated whilst open, difficult to operate in mud / grit (& earlier designs were heavier).

More recently various failure modes of snaplinks have been highlighted & we have greater choice in designs of krabs, so some of those issues have been lessened & there's been a move back to having at least one locker on cowstails.

It also depends what role your cowstails are performing, on many traverses they are a fall restraint, so not likely to unclip under normal circumstances. Occasionally they are a fall arrest (particularly if your waist is above the line) & that's when you definitely want a locking krab. Snaplinks don't unclip themselves if they are kept below the point they are attached to.

[On a side note: Snaplinks have been known to annoyingly attach themselves to ladders, but were still very useful for resting on long climbs]

 

[mikem]

Another advantage of locking krab is that you can safely attach it back into central D & use another krab in loop to shorten cowstail.

Disadvantage I see of double gate (as pluses already covered) is that it's going to be much more fiddly to use on a double loop (BotB) & you need a slightly longer safety cord, & reach, to clip / unclip it (only an occasional problem on certain anchors)

[Design improvements include clean nosed krabs, so the old fashioned hook doesn't catch on whatever you're clipping to & prevent the gate closing - as I think that's worth mentioning if you're looking to buy]

 

[cap n chris]

Another advantage of locking krab is that you can safely attach it back into central D & use another krab in loop to shorten cowstail.

Disadvantage I see of double gate (as pluses already covered) is that it's going to be much more fiddly to use on a double loop (BotB) & you need a slightly longer safety cord, & reach, to clip / unclip it (only an occasional problem on certain anchors)

[Design improvements include clean nosed krabs, so the old fashioned hook doesn't catch on whatever you're clipping to & prevent the gate closing - as I think that's worth mentioning if you're looking to buy]

Mike makes a timely reminder, which I'd completely forgotten about, because I've long since thrown them all away,.never to make that mistake ever again. Do not use fish hook gated carabiners. Unless you actually enjoy them snagging the loops on your harness, bags, slings etc..

 

[michael.11]

Mike makes a timely reminder, which I'd completely forgotten about, because I've long since thrown them all away,.never to make that mistake ever again. Do not use fish hook gated carabiners. Unless you actually enjoy them snagging the loops on your harness, bags, slings etc..

What are "fish hook gated" carabiners? Are the salewa ones I showed previously OK in this sense?

 

[StoneyGraham]

What are "fish hook gated" carabiners? Are the salewa ones I showed previously OK in this sense?

I climb with some salewa screw gates (same as your pic) they seem excessively thin and light but ive taken a factor 2 whilst top roping on a single one of these (slack caught in tree branch belayer didnt notice hence the long fall) and there was no damage. The nose is smooth keylock (not fishhook which u usually see old wire gates). Only issue ive had is ive noticed after less than a year of use its got some deep scratches in from rubbing on rock. Dont think its super strong metal however its easy to identify wear and tear like this and replace.

 

[StoneyGraham]

I climb with some salewa screw gates (same as your pic) they seem excessively thin and light but ive taken a factor 2 whilst top roping on a single one of these (slack caught in tree branch belayer didnt notice hence the long fall) and there was no damage. The nose is smooth keylock (not fishhook which u usually see old wire gates). Only issue ive had is ive noticed after less than a year of use its got some deep scratches in from rubbing on rock. Dont think its super strong metal however its easy to identify wear and tear like this and replace.

***factor 1

 

[Pete K]

What are "fish hook gated" carabiners? Are the salewa ones I showed previously OK in this sense?

Stolen from Google images.....

The Salewa one in your pic looks to be keylock/notchless as there is no pin at the top of the gate to catch in a hook, but you'd have to check via the retailer or Salewa website to be sure.
Salewa are a good brand, but make sure it comes from a trusted retailer so you know they are genuine products and not a knock-off. Stay away from Amazon and eBay unless you know 100% it is an outlet for a legit retailer (e.g. Inglesport).

 

[Cantclimbtom]

auto twist locking triact ones like Petzl OK triact seem to go into "safe mode" (i.e. refuse to open) once mud has got into the mechanism.

Suspect they are brilliant for arborists or meeting some kind of work-safety certification, but mine-muck has eaten the few that I got as a "really clever idea" a while ago. Soaking them in boiling water, drying and cleaning with wd40 rehabilitates them mostly. But my advice for mine srt anyway... is get good old fashioned screwgate and avoid new fangled fancy gates

 

[tomferry]

DMM PerfectO Screwgate Carabiner - Inglesport

Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977

www.inglesport.com

I use these myself

 

[Babyhagrid]

I'm a big fan of 7mm long opening maillons. Mostly for the price. And also they're bomber and can be tightened with a spanner so they'll never come loose

 

[cavemanmike]

DMM PerfectO Screwgate Carabiner - Inglesport

Technical Equipment Retailers to the Sport and Professional markets for Caving, Climbing, Rope Access, Work at Height and Rescue since 1977

www.inglesport.com

I use these myself

A bit expensive for rigging, especially if you’re caving in the dale’s and you need 15 of the buggers

 

[pwhole]

I've been using the same two Petzl Locker carabiners on my cowstails for over ten years now, and they're still doing fine. I use a notchless snapgate on my central short loop for passing rebelays and traverse lines, as it's so short it's almost impossible to unload it accidentally.