Wind turbines causing rain? [Split from Mossdale.]

alanw

Well-known member
That (Mark S's post) reminds me of a spoof scientific article written by Otto Frisch (He coined the term "atomic fission", I used to work for Laser-Scan in Cambridge, the small company that he founded, I've mentioned him here before in the context of Blue John Cavern).

On the Feasibility of Coal-Driven Power Stations


Introduction
The recent discovery of coal (black, fossilized plant remains) in a number of places offers an interesting alternative to the production of power from fission. Some of the places where coal has been found show indeed signs of previous exploitation by prehistoric men, who, however, probably used it for jewels and to blacken their faces at religious ceremonies.

The power potentials depend on the fact that coal can be readily oxidized, with the production of a high temperature and energy of about 0.0000001 megawatt days per gram. That is, of course, very little, but large amounts of coal (perhaps millions of tons) appear to be available.
The chief advantage is that the critical amount is very much smaller for coal than for any fissile material. Fission plants become, as is well known, uneconomical below 50 megawatts, and a coal-driven plant may be competitive for small communities (such as small islands) with small power requirements.

Design of a Coal Reactor
The main problem is to achieve free, yet controlled, access of oxygen to the fuel elements. The kinetics of the coal-oxygen reaction are much more complicated than fission kinetics, and not yet completely understood. A differential equation which approximates the behaviour of the reaction has been set up, but its solution is possible only in the simplest cases.
It is therefore proposed to make the reaction vessel in the form of a cylinder, with perforated walls to allow the combustion gases to escape. A concentric inner cylinder, also perforated, serves to introduce the oxygen while the fuel elements are placed between the two cylinders. The necessary presence of end plates poses a difficult but not insoluble mathematical problem.

Fuel Elements
It is likely that these will be easier to manufacture than in the case of fission reactors. Canning is unnecessary and indeed undesirable since it would make it impossible for the oxygen to gain access to the fuel. Various lattices have been calculated and it appears that the simplest of all, a close packing of equal spheres, is likely to be satisfactory. Computations are in progress to determine the optimum size of the spheres and the required tolerances. Coal is soft and easy to machine, so the manufacture of the spheres should present no major problem.

Oxidant
Pure oxygen is of course ideal but costly; it is therefore proposed to use air in the first place. However, it must be remembered that air contains 78% nitrogen. If even a fraction of that combined with the carbon of the coal to form the highly-toxic gas cyanogen, this would constitute a grave health hazard (see below).

Operation and Control
To start the reaction one requires a fairly high temperature of about 988°C. This is most conveniently achieved by passing an electrical current between the inner and outer cylinder (the end plates being made of insulating ceramic). A current of several thousand amps is needed, at some thirty volts, and the required large storage battery will add substantially to the cost of the installation.
There is the possibility of starting the reaction by some auxiliary self-starting reaction, such as that between phosphine and hydrogen peroxide. This is being looked into.
Once the reaction is started its rate can be controlled by adjusting the rate at which oxygen is admitted. This is almost as simple as the use of control rods in a conventional fission reactor.

Corrosion
The walls of the reactor must withstand a temperature of well over a 1000°F in the presence of oxygen, nitrogen, carbon monoxide and dioxide, as well as small amounts of sulphur dioxide and other impurities, some still unknown. Few metals and ceramics can withstand such grueling conditions. Niobium with a thin lining of nickel might be an attractive possibility, but probably solid nickel will have to be used. For the ceramic, fused thoria appears to be the best bet.

Health Hazards
The main health hazard is attached to the gaseous waste products. They contain not only carbon monoxide and sulphur dioxide (both highly toxic) but also a number of carcinogenic compounds such as phenanthrene and others. To discharge these into the air is impossible. It would cause the tolerance level to be exceeded for several miles around the reactor.
It is therefore necessary to collect the gaseous waste in suitable containers, pending chemical detoxification. Alternatively, the waste might be mixed with hydrogen and filled into large balloons which are subsequently released.
The solid waste products will have to be removed at frequent intervals (perhaps as often as daily) but the health hazards involved in that operation can easily be minimized by the use of conventional remote-handling equipment. The waste could then be taken out to sea and dumped.
There is a possibility, though it may seem remote, that the oxygen supply may get out of control. This would lead to melting of the entire reactor and the liberation of vast amounts of toxic gases. Here is a grave argument against the use of coal in favor of fission reactors which have proved their complete safety over a period of several thousand years. It will probably take decades before a control system of sufficient reliability can be evolved to allay the fears of those to whom the safety of our people is entrusted.

 

2xw

Well-known member
MMGW is an unproven hypothesis.. Donald Trump I've yet to see any facts.

Please tell me what the solution is, if true.
🤣🤣🤣 2005 called - it's wants it's online conspiracy forum opinions back

There is an irony here in throwing around the word "fanatic"
 

PeteHall

Moderator
🤣🤣🤣 2005 called - it's wants it's online conspiracy forum opinions back
I believe the preferred terminology these days is "anthropogenic climate change", rather than "man-made global warming".

However, regardless of the terminology used, and regardless of the opinions on either side, MMGW/ACC, remains an unproven hypothesis scientifically speaking.

We can measure current temperatures and we can compare these to historic records (both measured, or determined from physical records such as ice cores), and we can make observations about how they have changed. We can do the same for atmospheric gases such as CO2, and we can compare the data sets to observe patterns. However beyond this, pretty much everything related to climate change is based on incomplete modelling.

Climate science is extremely complicated and we (humanity) certainly can't pretend to fully understand it. All cavers surely have enough knowledge of geology to know that the global climate has always changed. Needless to say, we don't fully understand that either.

By keeping an open mind and accepting the limitations of our knowledge, we have over generations built a brilliant understanding of the world around us. To take as fact, that which has not been proved does science no favours.

This is not to suggest that we should not act on best available evidence, but we need to be honest about how much we know to be fact, and how much remains an unproven hypothesis. Humanity's influence on global climates is 100% in the latter camp.

We also need to be extremely careful to ensure that we don't let our incomplete understanding lead us to "solutions" that are more damaging than the problem we seek to solve; relatively recent tax incentives for driving a diesel car being the first example that pops into my head. Some of the ideas/proposals to tackle climate change could have devastating consequences. I don't think that we can underestimate the arrogance and stupidity of powerful people acting beyond their understanding.
 

MarkS

Moderator
Science is about looking at what available evidence points to. It is hardly ever as black and white as "proving" or "disproving" a hypothesis.

Presumably those best placed to judge how strongly evidence points to a hypothesis being correct or not are scientists (unless we've had enough of experts...). It's not hard to find lists of national/international scientific organisations that see the evidence very much pointing at global warming/climate change being caused by human activity. E.g. there are 198 listed here.

It's not incorrect to take a different viewpoint, but to be taken seriously a different viewpoint needs to be backed up by some serious evidence.

I think one useful perspective in all this is that the most economically favourable situation would be to establish that climate change has nothing to do with the hundreds/thousands of gigatons of carbon that humans have stuck into our atmosphere over the last 70 odd years. The financial rewards for demonstrating it would be unreal, yet scientific consensus is almost entirely at odds with this.
 

Flotsam

Active member
Whether or not man made/anthropogenic is caused by CO2 the main thrust of my argument is that what are proposed as solutions are manifestly either not solutions or so economically damaging that they are unfeasible. For a start, closing down our industry and importing all our stuff from China is not a solution.
My use of the word zealot is not an insult, it applies to those that wish to pursue the goal of net zero without understanding that isn't possible and massively expensive to try and implement. The solutions proposed are hugely expensive and in many cases not solutions at all. They rely on importing technology and subsidies from the public. It's the road top ruin.
This thread started by me suggesting that wind turbines cause rain, Apparently I deserve to be called Donald Trump for doing so, zealot? Whether they cause rain or not may or may not be true, I'm prepared to be wrong.
 

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
... ... 2 streams of water with different amounts of CO2, but both saturated with limestone, will always produce an unsaturated mixture... ...
Apologies for digressing this wind turbine thread but the above was stated to me one evening a few years back by a friendly local myself and a mate got chatting to in the bar of the New Inn Clapham. We'd had a couple of pints but I suspect he may have had some more than that! ;) and the detail of different amounts of CO2 was neglected. Simply stated that "2 saturated streams of water when mixed would be unsaturated". Which didn't seem to add up, but the gentleman was knowledgeable and extremely enthusiastic to impart this, so I didn't dismiss the idea but always wondered how.
Is there a link to further reading you could post please?
 

ChrisB

Well-known member
what are proposed as solutions are manifestly either not solutions or so economically damaging that they are unfeasible
It's not that they're unfeasible, it's that they're incompatible with the current world political and economic model, which is driven by capitalism. I don't have a fix for that, but the present approaches to mitigation of AGW are putting pressure on it. What else can be done - ignoring the problem won't make it go away.
Apparently I deserve to be called Donald Trump for doing so
I expect that braveduck, who made the comment about Trump, was reacting to the posts immediately prior to that, and hadn't looked back to the start of the thread. I am sure, whatever, that the comment wasn't directed at you personally.
 

ttxela2

Active member
I've often thought that as with other sources of power there may be as yet unanticipated consequences to the use of wind turbines, as they become increasingly common surely they will reach a point where the combined air-braking slows the rotation of the Earth causing untold mischief!
Fortunately there will be an easy remedy as all that is needed is to occasionally reverse the current so that instead of generators they will act as motors and the propellors can be used to speed the planet up again to the correct rotational speed.

So it will be important to maintain some other form of power generation such as nuclear to be able to do this.
 

2xw

Well-known member
I believe the preferred terminology these days is "anthropogenic climate change", rather than "man-made global warming".

However, regardless of the terminology used, and regardless of the opinions on either side, MMGW/ACC, remains an unproven hypothesis scientifically speaking.

We can measure current temperatures and we can compare these to historic records (both measured, or determined from physical records such as ice cores), and we can make observations about how they have changed. We can do the same for atmospheric gases such as CO2, and we can compare the data sets to observe patterns. However beyond this, pretty much everything related to climate change is based on incomplete modelling.

Climate science is extremely complicated and we (humanity) certainly can't pretend to fully understand it. All cavers surely have enough knowledge of geology to know that the global climate has always changed. Needless to say, we don't fully understand that either.

By keeping an open mind and accepting the limitations of our knowledge, we have over generations built a brilliant understanding of the world around us. To take as fact, that which has not been proved does science no favours.

This is not to suggest that we should not act on best available evidence, but we need to be honest about how much we know to be fact, and how much remains an unproven hypothesis. Humanity's influence on global climates is 100% in the latter camp.

We also need to be extremely careful to ensure that we don't let our incomplete understanding lead us to "solutions" that are more damaging than the problem we seek to solve; relatively recent tax incentives for driving a diesel car being the first example that pops into my head. Some of the ideas/proposals to tackle climate change could have devastating consequences. I don't think that we can underestimate the arrogance and stupidity of powerful people acting beyond their understandin
Your arguments equally apply to germ theory and the theory of gravity - please feel free to have pooey hands or do a ropeless Titan if you're not convinced.

The problem with flotsams argument is that trying to throw doubt on anthropogenic climate change logically leads us to believe he has an alternative explanation for the observed trends supported by better data. So where is it? Until Flotsams better climate theories are published we'll have to go with the best we have. That is science.

The additional problem in Flotsams posts here is conflating science and politics. Just because politicians have made policy that you disagree with, or that objectively is bad policy with negative outcomes, does not mean that the reasons for this policy are unfounded, false, or "just a hypothesis". It's a failure of reasoning.
 
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davel

Member
... Simply stated that "2 saturated streams of water when mixed would be unsaturated". Which didn't seem to add up, but the gentleman was knowledgeable and extremely enthusiastic to impart this, so I didn't dismiss the idea but always wondered how.
Is there a link to further reading you could post please?
Mixture Corrosion – which cites: Alfred Bögli (1978): Karst Hydrology and Physical Speleology, Springer-Verlag; 304 pages, ISBN-10: 3642676715, ISBN-13: 978-3642676710.
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
Apologies for digressing this wind turbine thread but the above was stated to me one evening a few years back by a friendly local myself and a mate got chatting to in the bar of the New Inn Clapham. We'd had a couple of pints but I suspect he may have had some more than that! ;) and the detail of different amounts of CO2 was neglected. Simply stated that "2 saturated streams of water when mixed would be unsaturated". Which didn't seem to add up, but the gentleman was knowledgeable and extremely enthusiastic to impart this, so I didn't dismiss the idea but always wondered how.
Is there a link to further reading you could post please?
Mixture Corrosion - Speleology Show Caves of the World https://www.showcaves.com
This is the one I used.
Sorry davel, just noticed - cross posted.
 

Rob

Well-known member
Very cool, and easily explainable via that graph.
Mischungskorrosion.gif

Science is cool innit. 🤣👍

However I can't help but think that is almost entirely academic, especially in this country, as we rarely have fully saturated streams, let alone two coming together in that state. Right?
... a local enlarging often occurs at the junction of phreatic passages...
More believable then to be due to increased turbulence, right?
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
Very cool, and easily explainable via that graph.
View attachment 20703
Science is cool innit. 🤣👍

However I can't help but think that is almost entirely academic, especially in this country, as we rarely have fully saturated streams, let alone two coming together in that state. Right?

More believable then to be due to increased turbulence, right?
I believe the mixture corrosion mechanism is usually applied to long-ago phreatic development where, I think, the water was traveling so slowly that mechanical erosion was negligible.
 

Chocolate fireguard

Active member
I believe the preferred terminology these days is "anthropogenic climate change", rather than "man-made global warming".

However, regardless of the terminology used, and regardless of the opinions on either side, MMGW/ACC, remains an unproven hypothesis scientifically speaking.
....................
To take as fact, that which has not been proved does science no favours.
This highlights one of the misconceptions about science – that everything must be proved before it can be accepted and used.

Little or nothing in science can be proved.

In maths proof is certainly possible because it is underpinned by a numbers system – if you start with 2 and add another 2 you have 4. No ifs or buts.

Our understanding of, and our ability to predict what will happen in, the macroscopic world is based upon 3 principles:

Conservation of energy

Conservation of linear momentum

Conservation of angular momentum

All are much used in climate science.

The first is the result of many observations and experiments over centuries and has always been found to be true (within the ever-tightening limits of experimental error). But it cannot be proved.

The other 2 are derived from unsubstantiated statements by Isaac Newton – his laws of motion. They have also been found to be true, within the limits of experimental error, but cannot be proved.

Despite there being no proof you would have trouble finding anyone involved in science who doesn’t accept them as facts (although I suspect that some fat people don’t really believe in the first) and who doesn't use them in scientific journals with no fear of somebody accusing them of being unscientific.

When I read that “To take as fact, that which has not been proved does science no favours” I do have a little chuckle to myself.
 

Lankyman

Active member
I've often thought that as with other sources of power there may be as yet unanticipated consequences to the use of wind turbines, as they become increasingly common surely they will reach a point where the combined air-braking slows the rotation of the Earth causing untold mischief!
We may even start going backwards in time as the Earth's rotation reverses! I saw this in an episode of Star Trek so it must be true. All my wrinkles will be gone returning me to the handsome devil I once was. Who said climate change was all bad?
 
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