benshannon
Active member
Thanks, I'll have a proper look next time 😁
winnats Head survey?
- Thread starter benshannon
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pwhole
Well-known member
Just to revive the discussion (hopefully) on minerals in Winnats Head Cave, here's a few snaps from Tuesday of the kind of thing I've mentioned - this is the floor of Cornwall Avenue, heading downslope into Fox Chamber, but the scene is replicated throughout the lower portions of both main boulder chokes. There's various forms of baryte and fluorite, in a variety of colours, galena, calcite and sphalerite, and even the limestone is of different types. I'm certain I've seen lumps of sandstone before too.
Which begs the question - where did it all come from? There are no obvious veins in the entrance chamber or Main Chamber, and although Fox Chamber has the shape of a vein-cavity, there doesn't seem to be be one in the roof. The only obvious in-situ vein is across the roof of the first sump chamber, but it's about six inches wide and mostly baryte with a little fluorite, as far as I can tell. On the climb back up, we did notice a big curved slab of cream-coloured baryte jammed within the upper choke, obviously a lining to a large mineralised cavity now out of reach. The smashed mineral fragments on the floors could have come from a pipe or a vein - it's difficult to tell, but some chunks of fluorite have cubic surfaces, showing they grew into empty space, so more likely a pipe deposit.
We all believe no miners ever entered here, but at the same time, I never see smashed mineral of this sort outside a mine - it's not common in purely natural caves at all. It looks like dressing waste to me. Any ideas?
Which begs the question - where did it all come from? There are no obvious veins in the entrance chamber or Main Chamber, and although Fox Chamber has the shape of a vein-cavity, there doesn't seem to be be one in the roof. The only obvious in-situ vein is across the roof of the first sump chamber, but it's about six inches wide and mostly baryte with a little fluorite, as far as I can tell. On the climb back up, we did notice a big curved slab of cream-coloured baryte jammed within the upper choke, obviously a lining to a large mineralised cavity now out of reach. The smashed mineral fragments on the floors could have come from a pipe or a vein - it's difficult to tell, but some chunks of fluorite have cubic surfaces, showing they grew into empty space, so more likely a pipe deposit.
We all believe no miners ever entered here, but at the same time, I never see smashed mineral of this sort outside a mine - it's not common in purely natural caves at all. It looks like dressing waste to me. Any ideas?
pwhole
Well-known member
There is a pretty strong flow of water down there in winter though, and these get tumbled regularly, which may account for some of the rounding. There's plenty of galena scattered about, but then there's galena in the wall of Giants Hole above Boss Aven, so I guess that's no signifier of past mining. The in-situ mineralisation that is visible en-route consists of very small veinlets here and there in the wall, but nothing of the size that would generate the volume (and variety) of spoil.
As I remember, one of the digs at the far end of Main Chamber does head up into mineralised ground, but I found no evidence of a possible former way in via that route, though I think it was heading back toward the surface at the end. Similarly, the entrance chamber just fizzles out into too-low beddings around the edges, so they couldn't have got in there, bypassing the tight entrance crawl. If I could just find a big pipe-cavity around there I'd be happy, but it all just seems to be breakdown of big limestone blocks everywhere. Similarly, Fox Chamber is a big phreatic cavern, and yet below the muddy blocky floor of that, the mineral fragments resume - the large sump chamber floor is mostly mineral fragments where it's not covered by mud.
I still haven't found the beachball of dark purple cubic fluorite I saw in there years ago, but I doubt it's been taken out
As I remember, one of the digs at the far end of Main Chamber does head up into mineralised ground, but I found no evidence of a possible former way in via that route, though I think it was heading back toward the surface at the end. Similarly, the entrance chamber just fizzles out into too-low beddings around the edges, so they couldn't have got in there, bypassing the tight entrance crawl. If I could just find a big pipe-cavity around there I'd be happy, but it all just seems to be breakdown of big limestone blocks everywhere. Similarly, Fox Chamber is a big phreatic cavern, and yet below the muddy blocky floor of that, the mineral fragments resume - the large sump chamber floor is mostly mineral fragments where it's not covered by mud.
I still haven't found the beachball of dark purple cubic fluorite I saw in there years ago, but I doubt it's been taken out
It could easily be the mineralised coating of cavities that has been released when the wall rock was later dissolved. This is quite common in the south of the area and miners often just worked through the debris when they found it.
The source doesn't need to be in the existing cave. It could easily be from somewhere that has now been eroded away.
The source doesn't need to be in the existing cave. It could easily be from somewhere that has now been eroded away.
Goydenman
Well-known member
Shortly after the discovery of Cornwall Avenue/Fox chamber I met Peter Revell of Bagshaw. He was adamant that he'd entered Fox chamber after being lowered down the mine at the top of the Winnats in a Kibble on wire that frightened the hell out of him. He gave a description of what he remembered of the huge natural open...the description was nothing like Fox chamber/Cornwall Avenue but a really good description of Main chamber. I wondered if he had entered via Boulder passage. I dug this for a while and note it has been dug now to what looks like no ongoing passage?
benshannon
Active member
I'm reading the Peak District landscape and Geology book by Tony Waltham which is very interesting. It insinuates that winnats head may join the Peak cavern system as its leading down to the stream way. How accurate is this? Sounds interesting but I imagine that's alot of work
alastairgott
Well-known member
There?s some Chinese whispers that the sump at the base of the down pitches was higher than normal for several months from summer 2021 to winter 2021.
This would seem to correlate with p8 sump 5/6 being (apparently) higher than normal, with J Dewison saying on a dive (perhaps him diving?), but he was saying that you had to crawl with your elbows in water, where normally you would have to drop down a pot to get to the water in sump 6?
I have been helping with a project In giants logging depth and all of these sumps have been higher than normal for the same period of time. In speedwell the water has been mostly flowing out of whirlpool rising rather than main rising.
Whirlpool rising is reportedly higher than main rising, in the coming months a resurvey of the passage between them will be conducted to find out the height difference. This will help with the data being collected and allow a better understanding of the conditions for the ?sump swap? in speedwell.
This would seem to correlate with p8 sump 5/6 being (apparently) higher than normal, with J Dewison saying on a dive (perhaps him diving?), but he was saying that you had to crawl with your elbows in water, where normally you would have to drop down a pot to get to the water in sump 6?
I have been helping with a project In giants logging depth and all of these sumps have been higher than normal for the same period of time. In speedwell the water has been mostly flowing out of whirlpool rising rather than main rising.
Whirlpool rising is reportedly higher than main rising, in the coming months a resurvey of the passage between them will be conducted to find out the height difference. This will help with the data being collected and allow a better understanding of the conditions for the ?sump swap? in speedwell.
alastairgott
Well-known member
P8 sump 6 is the one which is higher than normal - https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/castleton/p8
Screenshot from 1989 survey.
Screenshot from 1989 survey.
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pwhole
Well-known member
Does anyone have the bearing of the vein that traverses the roof of the first sump pool chamber (before The Sewer)? It's not beyond the realm of possibility that parts of the cave are formed on the western end of the Longcliffe Vein fault, as it's pretty much in a straight line with it, but the Survex model only follows the line route. The only survey I have doesn't show a plan. I know one's coming, but that bearing would be very useful. The chamber appears to be a vein-cavity of sorts, with some scalloping on the roof and yet another 'static' sump, as at Cohesion Sump and others in Peak-Speedwell. Sorry for the shitty steamy photos but it's all I have at the moment.
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It is interesting where it could come in.
The main choke in Fox chamber is where the dye was put in.
That water goes into the sump pool - which is the main passage continuation and this passage is never seen again.
The water however exits the sump pool and flows into the sewer, then sinks in the boulders beneath the aven to the stream pitches.
That means the dye test to Whirpool - Main rising wasn't flowing at the time - is either via the sump or water disappearing into the boulders.
The water from the pitches remains untested.
Either ways T-Pot says could WHC come into the assault?
Possibly, but if so which bit - the old fossil passage beyond the sump or the smaller passage beyond the choke at the base of the aven and also where does the sump at the base of the pitches go?
There is a lot to play for still at WHC which considering it is well penned in and close to its neighbours is surprising - needs some new focused attention I'd say.
I'll look out the original survey and get a bearing on the big sump.
The main choke in Fox chamber is where the dye was put in.
That water goes into the sump pool - which is the main passage continuation and this passage is never seen again.
The water however exits the sump pool and flows into the sewer, then sinks in the boulders beneath the aven to the stream pitches.
That means the dye test to Whirpool - Main rising wasn't flowing at the time - is either via the sump or water disappearing into the boulders.
The water from the pitches remains untested.
Either ways T-Pot says could WHC come into the assault?
Possibly, but if so which bit - the old fossil passage beyond the sump or the smaller passage beyond the choke at the base of the aven and also where does the sump at the base of the pitches go?
There is a lot to play for still at WHC which considering it is well penned in and close to its neighbours is surprising - needs some new focused attention I'd say.
I'll look out the original survey and get a bearing on the big sump.
pwhole
Well-known member
I could never face the Assault Course upstream passage sadly - I know I should, but I'm always injuring myself beyond boulder chokes! Did it only two weeks ago in Toadstool Aven, and that was worrying enough, but I got out. But it is a fascinating area. On the surface above, there's a short SW-trending branch off Faucet Rake with three huge hillocks, but no history or any clues where they went.
There are definitely plans afoot to do more dye-tracing soon, especially now we have a sump in Longcliffe to play with, which is en-route from WHC. Or get stuck at
There are definitely plans afoot to do more dye-tracing soon, especially now we have a sump in Longcliffe to play with, which is en-route from WHC. Or get stuck at
SamT
Moderator
A few observations from my knowledge...
Im reasonably confident that the water trickling down through the second choke into the Static Sump (named "This is the Sea" by Pete Ward and co) is the same volume of water that flows back out of the sump and down into the Sewer.
Thus the Sump is completely static. I really dont see how it can have got any 'higher' since it overflows into the sewer. the only way for this to have happened is for someone to have dammed the overflow point. I just really can't see how it could get any fuller, since any excess would just overflow into the sewer and away.
Looking at Petes survey data - their point 18 to 19 was a shot across the sump pool - and its at 104 deg. This does not necessarily line up with the vein in the roof though.
On the assumption that the whole of fox chamber and the second coke is actually formed on that vein.. you're looking at something 70 odd degrees.
Re dye tracing. I think it it would be worth testing the main streamway.. which I'm sure has come out at whirlpool non?
But also testing to see if the trickle from the sewer, joins the main sump at the end of the down pitches. Pretty sure it will.
Here's a thought.
Start a dig in the rubble filled chamber just the other side of the sewer to sink a shaft as far as possible down, hopefully lower than the bottom of the static sump (this is the sea).
If possible, syphon the main static sump over the top, through the sewer, so it drains away down the dig. Pray that at some point, a massive draft suddenly starts up and allows exploration beyond the sump, even if its to line it for divers.
If it wont syphon, you could get some beefy submersible pumps - I spoke to nick williams about this idea once as I think he had some seriously powerful submersible pumps at his disposal. Big generator on the surface, cable down from the surface, then pump the sump dry. It would be a huge amount of water to shift. But with the right kit, anything's possible.
alastairgott said:
Im reasonably confident that the water trickling down through the second choke into the Static Sump (named "This is the Sea" by Pete Ward and co) is the same volume of water that flows back out of the sump and down into the Sewer.
Thus the Sump is completely static. I really dont see how it can have got any 'higher' since it overflows into the sewer. the only way for this to have happened is for someone to have dammed the overflow point. I just really can't see how it could get any fuller, since any excess would just overflow into the sewer and away.
Looking at Petes survey data - their point 18 to 19 was a shot across the sump pool - and its at 104 deg. This does not necessarily line up with the vein in the roof though.
On the assumption that the whole of fox chamber and the second coke is actually formed on that vein.. you're looking at something 70 odd degrees.
Re dye tracing. I think it it would be worth testing the main streamway.. which I'm sure has come out at whirlpool non?
But also testing to see if the trickle from the sewer, joins the main sump at the end of the down pitches. Pretty sure it will.
Here's a thought.
Start a dig in the rubble filled chamber just the other side of the sewer to sink a shaft as far as possible down, hopefully lower than the bottom of the static sump (this is the sea).
If possible, syphon the main static sump over the top, through the sewer, so it drains away down the dig. Pray that at some point, a massive draft suddenly starts up and allows exploration beyond the sump, even if its to line it for divers.
If it wont syphon, you could get some beefy submersible pumps - I spoke to nick williams about this idea once as I think he had some seriously powerful submersible pumps at his disposal. Big generator on the surface, cable down from the surface, then pump the sump dry. It would be a huge amount of water to shift. But with the right kit, anything's possible.
alastairgott
Well-known member
For clarification, down pitches being beyond the sewer. The lowest sump in the cave, it has been anecdotally observed to be recently higher than normal.
Ie, this sump on downstream: https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/castleton/winnats-head-cave
Ie, this sump on downstream: https://peakdistrictcaving.info/home/the-caves/castleton/winnats-head-cave
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From Sam's points.
The main downstream pitches have never been die tested.
The test done was the water entering the choke below Fox Chamber and as you say this goes through the sewer. This tested to whirlpool as main rising was not flowing at that time.
Over many trips I checked out the down pitches in detail and never found any trace of water entering. I was looking specifically as I wanted to know if it was worth digging the choke below the aven which I would suggest it is. This doesn't mean it cannot link, but I think it is less likely before the bottom sump.
The key is to do a series of die tests
A dig in that choke and or an attempt to drain the big static sump would be a great idea.
Also the sump at the bottom of the pitches has always varied considerably in height.
When we first found it we went down approximately an 8 metre pitch and on a later trip the water was close to the bolts at the top.
What I never checked out at the time was if any other sumps in the region were also higher - that is a great idea to tie levels in key places.
from a direction point you would have to conclude that the sea is just a continuation of Fox chamber which starts as a large passage on a definite trend.
So from PWhole's point of view, what does line up with Fox Chamber or what do you think it will intersect that could influence where it emerges again into known cave?
The main downstream pitches have never been die tested.
The test done was the water entering the choke below Fox Chamber and as you say this goes through the sewer. This tested to whirlpool as main rising was not flowing at that time.
Over many trips I checked out the down pitches in detail and never found any trace of water entering. I was looking specifically as I wanted to know if it was worth digging the choke below the aven which I would suggest it is. This doesn't mean it cannot link, but I think it is less likely before the bottom sump.
The key is to do a series of die tests
A dig in that choke and or an attempt to drain the big static sump would be a great idea.
Also the sump at the bottom of the pitches has always varied considerably in height.
When we first found it we went down approximately an 8 metre pitch and on a later trip the water was close to the bolts at the top.
What I never checked out at the time was if any other sumps in the region were also higher - that is a great idea to tie levels in key places.
from a direction point you would have to conclude that the sea is just a continuation of Fox chamber which starts as a large passage on a definite trend.
So from PWhole's point of view, what does line up with Fox Chamber or what do you think it will intersect that could influence where it emerges again into known cave?
SamT
Moderator
Wardy said:
Ah right - I remember you mentioning something about checking and had it in my head that you'd spotted the water re-entering. Clearly the other way round.
Interesting to hear that the main stream was not dye tested. That seems remis. (not aimed at you Pete in any way. Just seems like such an obvious place to test.
(though would be surprised if it didn't end up at Whirlpool).
