winnats Head survey?

[pwhole]

Unless there's another streamway 300m north of all that stuff. Stemple Sump in the Halfway House series also varied in depth by many metres when observed in the early 90s, and all of that series (and ours) is in a straight line with Winnats Head - not saying it's a definite, but it's a possibility, given the speed of the dye-traces we did in Longcliffe and Son of Longcliffe (and on the hillside) in wet weather. If the Rowter Hole trace went to Main Rising, but quicker to Russet Well, it's not impossible that it and Winnats Head are feeding into a separate stream system further north, going under Longcliffe Mine, roughly parallel to the shale boundary.

Water from Blue John Cavern was tested to the resurgences, and unless that literally goes under the shale floor in the valley, it's possible it could also join this mythical streamway

 

[SamT]

I think Jules Barratt Dived the downstream sump - but can't remember the conclusion.

What about Rupert Skorupka  - did he dive the down stream sump (as well as "This is the Sea")

Again , remind me what the conclusion was.

 

[A_Northerner]

I think Jules Barratt Dived the downstream sump - but can't remember the conclusion.

What about Rupert Skorupka  - did he dive the down stream sump (as well as "This is the Sea")

Again , remind me what the conclusion was.

Rupert did dive the Downstream Sump, I don't have the conclusion to hand but I do have my own report of when a team of SUSS assisted Rob M with a dive down there: http://www.shefcavers.org.uk/2018/03/26/porters-report-winnats-head-dive/

 

[pwhole]

Thanks for that. At least we know to look out for a Pantin now, but I'm keeping it if I find it

 

[SamT]

Another Madcap thought of mine was to divert the stream through into the rubble filled chamber. 
(large tarpaulin strung across the base of the pitch directing it through the awkward crawl ought to do it).

Not sure exactly what this would acheive, other than to prove that the water from the sewer def doesn't re-join the down pitches.

A bit of dye in it at that point would possibly/probably be detected in the downstream sump?

Wasn't aware of Rob M's dive.    Sounds a little optimistic than most previous reports.

 

[Wardy]

Hi Sam, et all
The original dye trace was not done by our team and at the time they did not realise there was a separate streamway, so just released it into the choke above our breakthrough dig.
At the time there was quite a lot of tracing work being done and I seem to remember this was a last minute inclusion.
It was always a pity it was not done properly and also that it has not been addressed since.
Maybe the following 3 tests need doing;
Test the water beyond the sewer as it goes into the choke and put tracers in the lower streamway / sump as well as obvious outlets like whirlpool and Main rising etc. plus Stemple sump
Test the water going into the sea and see if anything different occurs as whilst it looks like it all overflows down the sewer maybe some goes through.
Finally the main stream down the pitches as this has never been done.

Nice to see renewed interest

 

[benshannon]

This makes brilliant reading. Sounds like there is alot of potential left in this cave 😁 be a hell of a trip if it dropped you into speedwell

 

[pwhole]

It's being actively discussed with JG as I write, and hopefully something will materialise soon - a depth-logger in the bottom sump would be good start, especially if a dye trace can be done concurrently from there, and that is possible soon, with some arrangement. Obviously if we want to trace the higher water into the bottom sump that will have to be done separately - or using different dye.

To hopefully back up our theory that there is another drainage system beyond (north of) the Speedwell streamway, with potentially multiple conduits, consider these two tests, done on the same day in December 2018 - fluorescein into the bottom of Longcliffe Mine, and rhodamine into the wet-weather sink at the east end of Longcliffe Pipe in Cowlow Nick. The first traces of F made it to Russet Well and Slop Moll in 4-5 hours, peaking at 10.5 hours, and had all gone by 21.5 hours, with a small amount traceable in Peakshole Sough. No rhodamine at all. The rhodamine only showed up in Peakshole Sough, starting 9 hours after injection, and was all gone in 29 hours. This is from the upwelling in the floor near the entrance, not the inner end, which is dry. Although Peakshole Sough was driven to drain the Longcliffe mines it was abandoned halfway - possibly as they realised there was a natural conduit already doing the job perfectly well!

 

[Mrs Trellis]

So is it known whether the F showed up in Speedwell?

Also has the stream in Treak Cliff found latterly by the BB (I believe) been tested?

 

[SamT]

I was going to ask about Treak...

 

[pwhole]

On those tests we only had a detector in the Near Canal where Longcliffe Vein crosses it (west side), and there was a faint positive for F, but we weren't really checking that route on this test. A 'normal' Bottomless Pit trace would usually be about 26 hours to the resurgences, so ours was far faster. As far as our survey is accurate, that water should just go beneath the canal, so we were somewhat baffled as to how it had gone uphill. This is partly why the whole system is being re-surveyed, as many levels don't quite sit right as far as the water is concerned.

The shale margin is also of interest as we don't know what passages might go beneath it. Certainly indications at the west end of Peakshole Sough suggest a partly phreatic system exists under Goosehill Hall, beneath the shale. In which case there may be a vadose component deeper still, in the -25m range, that's bringing water from Blue John and Treak Cliff Caverns that ultimately merges with the Speedwell water beneath Peak Cavern Gorge just before resurgence. Although the Peakshole Sough water is coming from a hole in the floor only 20m in, it's normally under pressure, and so should really be classed as a resurgence too now.

I dont know of any dye tests done in the Treak Cliff extensions.

 

[danthecavingman]

In very high flood, water from BJC appears from a small passage at the bottom of the steps in Speedwell.

In similarly high flood, a stream issues from the field next to the driveway up to Goosehill Hall. The source of this water is unknown (I think) but could well be associated with any development along Longcliffe to Peakshole sough?

 

[pwhole]

I think that Goosehill water could well be leaking out of the system I just mentioned. There are mature passages accessible beneath the shale that Jim L and Mich P dug out, but I think they were mostly sediment-filled, rather than carrying water - I'm hoping for a survey one day! But the single known phreatic tube shown on the original 1974 survey by Dave Penney and Richard Carr is very large (2-3m diameter), and mostly infilled, so there's got to be more lower down.

 

[Mrs Trellis]

[quote author=pwhole]

I dont know of any dye tests done in the Treak Cliff extensions.
[/quote]

....and the Rowter extension(s)? Interestingly CoPD gives an earlier name of Longcliffe Caverns to Rowter. Which rake influences Rowter?

Vairy interesting:-

 

[Rob]

....and the Rowter extension(s)? ...

Rowter is on Faucet Rake (same as Oxlow), roughly 300m south of the Longcliffe Rake. And the bottom of Orechasm in the Rowter Extensions is very close to known bits in Whirlpool Rising, so likely to be a direct connection between the two. So probably off topic.

I dont know of any dye tests done in the Treak Cliff extensions.

No, the only dye test i know of in TCC is from 1989 where it took "<168 hours" to get to RW/SM.

.... The first traces of F made it to Russet Well and Slop Moll in 4-5 hours, peaking at 10.5 hours, and had all gone by 21.5 hours, with a small amount traceable in Peakshole Sough. ..

This is very quick, the bit we don't know of must be mostly vadose. 

 

[pwhole]

Rowter's on Faucet Rake, but there's a lot in-between the two sites. The Badgers could inform better on tests done in the extensions, but a new trace was done in 2014 I think from the main chamber.

Also, Shack Hole Scrin branches from Longcliffe Vein at the main shaft, goes up the slope and over the wall into Rowter Farm land and joins Faucet Rake just west of Rowter Hole shaft. We did a dye-trace into the old engine shaft up there on the edge of Winnats Pass in 2019 using Tinopal (optical brightener - there was a simulatneous F test from Coalpithole shaft #10), but I don't have the full results of that yet - but interestingly the detector at the shaft inlet in Longcliffe was negative. Routes via Speedwell were less conclusive, though it did reach the resurgences, but it's pointless issuing part-results - JG can wrap up a far better summary than I at some point.

 

[pwhole]

This is very quick, the bit we don't know of must be mostly vadose. 

A second trace done two weeks later to the frst one (30/12/18) from Longcliffe base was much slower in drier weather (102 hours), but the concentrations of F at Peakshole Sough were literally off the scale - too high to measure. Which suggests a vadose streamway partly dried-up, with the concentrated dye overflowing downhill as various puddles filled up until it reached the phreatic zone under the gorge. There must be last-minute mixing as we've had simultaneous times for PS and RW, but massively diluted in RW - as in, the Speedwell water meets it there, just before resurging. Possibly Lumbago Sump feeds into this too - fascinating stuff.

 

[Tseralo]

It is interesting where it could come in.
The main choke in Fox chamber is where the dye was put in.
That water goes into the sump pool - which is the main passage continuation and this passage is never seen again.
The water however exits the sump pool and flows into the sewer, then sinks in the boulders beneath the aven to the stream pitches.
That means the dye test to Whirpool - Main rising wasn't flowing at the time - is either via the sump or water disappearing into the boulders.
The water from the pitches remains untested.
Either ways T-Pot says could WHC come into the assault?
Possibly, but if so which bit - the old fossil passage beyond the sump or the smaller passage beyond the choke at the base of the aven and also where does the sump at the base of the pitches go?
There is a lot to play for still at WHC which considering it is well penned in and close to its neighbours is surprising - needs some new focused attention I'd say.

I'll look out the original survey and get a bearing on the big sump.

I was always led to believe the water from sump 1 that goes through the server connects through to the other side of the pitches. I know some TSG members did have a dig and attempt to follow it eventually they abandoned the dig as that was what they thought was happening. If that's true its entirely possible that Sump 2 was dye traced by proxy.

 

[SamT]

I was always led to believe the water from sump 1 that goes through the server connects through to the other side of the pitches. I know some TSG members did have a dig and attempt to follow it eventually they abandoned the dig as that was what they thought was happening. If that's true its entirely possible that Sump 2 was dye traced by proxy.

From Sam's points.

The main downstream pitches have never been die tested.
The test done was the water entering the choke below Fox Chamber and as you say this goes through the sewer. This tested to whirlpool as main rising was not flowing at that time.

Over many trips I checked out the down pitches in detail and never found any trace of water entering. I was looking specifically as I wanted to know if it was worth digging the choke below the aven which I would suggest it is. This doesn't mean it cannot link, but I think it is less likely before the bottom sump.
The key is to do a series of die tests

A dig in that choke and or an attempt to drain the big static sump would be a great idea.

Also the sump at the bottom of the pitches has always varied considerably in height.
When we first found it we went down approximately an 8 metre pitch and on a later trip the water was close to the bolts at the top.
What I never checked out at the time was if any other sumps in the region were also higher - that is a great idea to tie levels in key places.

from a direction point you would have to conclude that the sea is just a continuation of Fox chamber which starts as a large passage on a definite trend.
So from PWhole's point of view, what does line up with Fox Chamber or what do you think it will intersect that could influence where it emerges again into known cave?

 

[martinb]

As one of the original diggers and discoverers of the Treak Cliff extensions (the other being markc of this parish) - the new stuff found in April 2014 hasn't been dye tested.

There is a very immature stream/trickle at the very lowest point about 9/10 meters below Marbles chamber.

Unfortunately both markc and I have moved away from Derbyshire, strangely enough I should have been making a visit to TCC next week, but my cancelled ferries and French Government have got in the way! Although I hope to make a visit in late April or May.

Both Moose and Rob have descended the new stuff.

I don't know where the original dye test at TCC was done, assuming it was done in the cave rather than the mine, where water trickles down an impenetrable slot, then that will eventually end up in the immature stream above.

If someone wants to attempt the dye trace, then obvs speak to Vicky first. When I saw her last October, she indicated that no-one had been down the new stuff since late 2017/early 2018 and that was me before I moved abroad!

On those tests we only had a detector in the Near Canal where Longcliffe Vein crosses it (west side), and there was a faint positive for F, but we weren't really checking that route on this test. A 'normal' Bottomless Pit trace would usually be about 26 hours to the resurgences, so ours was far faster. As far as our survey is accurate, that water should just go beneath the canal, so we were somewhat baffled as to how it had gone uphill. This is partly why the whole system is being re-surveyed, as many levels don't quite sit right as far as the water is concerned.

The shale margin is also of interest as we don't know what passages might go beneath it. Certainly indications at the west end of Peakshole Sough suggest a partly phreatic system exists under Goosehill Hall, beneath the shale. In which case there may be a vadose component deeper still, in the -25m range, that's bringing water from Blue John and Treak Cliff Caverns that ultimately merges with the Speedwell water beneath Peak Cavern Gorge just before resurgence. Although the Peakshole Sough water is coming from a hole in the floor only 20m in, it's normally under pressure, and so should really be classed as a resurgence too now.

I dont know of any dye tests done in the Treak Cliff extensions.