Ye olden days cave names

[mikem]

1748 edition p.137: "Settle, a much better Town than we expected in such a Country... Looking forward to the North-west of us, we saw nothing but high Mountains, which had a terrible Aspect, and more frightful than any in Monmouthshire or Derbyshire, especially Pingent Hill, which Camden derives from the British Word Pengwin, i.e. White-head, from the snow lying upon it..."

A Tour Through the Whole Island of Great Britain

books.google.co.uk

Penyghent - So speculative etymology also has a long history!

 

[mikem]

This article from 1950 may be of interest, as it looks at the changes between Defoe editions:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/435098

& also the below reviewed book (although he's wrong in attributing previous quote to Defoe himself, as he actually says in letter X "and the English Appenine, as Mr. Cambden calls them, that is, the mountains of Yorkshire North Riding, lie like a wall of brass on the other; and in deed, in one sense, they are a wall of brass; for it is the opinion of the most skilful and knowing people in the country, that those mountains are full of inexhaustible mines of copper, and so rich, as not only to be called brass, copper being convertible into brass, but also to have a quantity of gold in them also: It is true, they do at this time work at some copper mines here, but they find the oar lies so deep, and is so hard to come at, that they do not seem to go cheerfully on.

But notwithstanding this terrible aspect of the hills, when having passed by Kendal, and descending the frightful mountains..."):

The discovery of the Yorkshire Dales

What are the special qualities of our Yorkshire Dales which attract admiration and many visitors from near and far?

www.cravenherald.co.uk

The following list may also be helpful, as although wrong part of country, it includes more extensive tours in French from 1707 & German 1716 etc, plus a couple that may be of more general interest to members of this forum:
"1704 William Waller
A description of the mines in Cardiganshire. [London], [1704]
& 1720 Henrik Kalmeter" who visited mines & metal processing plants (although published translation isn't mentioned)

travellers and tourists, 1700-1769

List of travellers and tourists, 1700-1769 Many of these earlier accounts of visits to Wales were by travellers rather than tourists. They included lawyers; Quakers who visited other Friends; prea…

sublimewales.wordpress.com

 

[mikem]

Of course, unless there's a surviving manuscript version, we will never know if Catcott's original notes (or letter sent to him describing the cave, as it's more than likely that he didn't actually visit - we've seen already that many publications were compiled by collecting reports from others) spelt it Alum / Allum. It would be quite easy, with the handwriting of the time, for him to misread that as Allan (or even more likely that the printers did when setting the typeface), because the word shapes are so similar. And once that happened, other publishers would repeat the error (just as the internet does today) until someone more authoritative corrects it - although it was somewhat easier back then, as there were fewer outlets & more checks on content.

This 1850 geology book has a fuller list of old / mis-spelt cave names, from all over England, along with info on mines, between pages 198 and 202:

Outlines of British geology, chiefly of England and Wales

books.google.co.uk

Early visitor reports for mendip caves can be found in UBSS Proceedings.

 

[mikem]

Before the 1750s most reports were about the towns and industries of an area, it was only from mid 18th century onwards that natural curiosities were more often mentioned.

Several other early travellers are on that website (although not covering this area they may be useful elsewhere), but Camden's Britannia (1610) has already been mentioned as a source text for many of them:

https://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/travellers/

This is the site with Defoe's original publication, which shows that the description of Craven district in 1748 edition actually stems from his write up of somewhere around the A6 (M6) corridor between Lakeland and Pennine fells, which isn't quite the same place.

Camden published in Latin in 1586, so this may have affected the spelling (it's penigent or pennigent, not pingent, in 1610 translation of presumably the 1607 edition - lots of scope for transcription errors, plus many spellings weren't standardised until later). Ingleborough gets similar treatment (they are the ones that stand out as being higher than their surroundings, & it's spelt differently in other iterations of this quote):
"Of these hils I have made mention the more willingly, both because they are the highest in our Appenine, whence commeth this vulgar Rhime,

Ingeleborrow, Pendle, and Penigent
Are the highest hils betweene Scotland and Trent,

 

[mikem]

The Craven And North-West Yorkshire Highlands (1892) also had problems identifying the same caves, but covers many other sites as well (I just used "find in page" for blackside):

https://archive.org/stream/cravennorthwesty01spei/cravennorthwesty01spei_djvu.txt

& they are also mentioned (amongst old maps and illustrations) in these documents about Ingleborough (Thomas Pennant did write about the area, but this book isn't on Visions of Britain website):

Old Cumbria Gazetteer - Ingleborough, North Yorkshire

www.lakesguides.co.uk

The latter also has pages for caves & which books they appear in:

Old Cumbria Gazetteer - frameset

www.lakesguides.co.uk

Plus mines:

Old Cumbria Gazetteer - frameset

www.lakesguides.co.uk

& all the publications they consulted:

Guides to the Lakes, main menu

www.lakesguides.co.uk

Coincidentally, Blackside Wood is on the other side of Kingsdale to Yordas (zoom in and out on map):

#GetOutside: do more in the British Outdoors

#GetOutside is for everyone, just as the outdoors is for everyone and we want to help you discover the best Britain has to offer and the benefits that outdoor activity can bring.

getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk

 

[mikem]

This also refers to them: "Descending Caves: Descent Narratives and the Subterranean ..."

https://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/126261/1/2018pearsonphd.pdf

& to further confuse things, the Yorkshire Ramblers list a different set of Blackside Pots (amongst other names I don't recognise):

Cave Exploration – The Yorkshire Ramblers' Club

www.yrc.org.uk

Also a Blackside vein (amongst other mining references) in Swaledale:

https://webapps.bgs.ac.uk/Memoirs/docs/B01792.html

 

[mikem]

Another free download that may help or hinder:

A Descriptive Tour, and Guide to the Lakes, Caves, Mountains, and Other Natural Curiosities, in Cumberland, Westmoreland, Lancashire, and a Part of the West Riding of Yorkshire

books.google.co.uk

"The principal curiosities on the former [Ingleborough], not already noticed [Douk Cave & Barefoot-wives'-hole], are Meir gill and Hardraw-kin on the north side, and Alumn-pot and Long-Churn on the south : those on the latter [Whernside] are Gatekirk Cave on the south, and Greenside Cave on the south-east."

So, only 20 years after Hutton's Tour, those names we don't recognise aren't featured.

 

[Franklin]

Yes, mikem, this 1800 Descriptive Tour by John Housman (Carlisle Chum) is a good one. He blends the tour of the Lakes and the Dales into one - following West's Guide to the Lakes with Hutton's Tour to the Caves as an addendum. He describes what was by 1800 the standard tour of the caves with Kingsdale and Chapel-le-dale as the main locations - along with those on Ingleborough - Meirgill, Hardraw-kin, Barefoot-wives'-hole, and round to Alan - Alumn Pot, Dicken and Long-Churn, also - Catnot-hole. Housman also wrote a Topographical Description to the Lakes, Caves, etc. It is also well worth a read - he includes the north Pennines too.

West's Guide went through numerous editions and the editor, William Cockin - mate of John Hutton - both came from Burton-in-Kendal, up-dated Hutton's Tour in later editions adding a poem (Cockin was a poet) and a reference to open potholes on Newby Moss - possibly Pillar Holes and Longkin West.

It is interesting that Samuel Richardson bought the rights to Defoe's Tour, in his epic epistolary novel, Clarissa (1748), his villain, Lovelace, having caused the death of Clarissa Harlowe (oops, sorry - spoiler!), writes that his nightmares include the floor opening up below and him plunging into a hole 'more frightful than Elden.' (p. 2118) .. it is a long book). Unless he visited Eldon Hole himself, I'd guess he got it from Defoe. Though many contemporaries wrote that Defoe never went there himself either - he just lifted all the details from other writers. They were a rum bunch.

Place-names change as language changes and as they are used locally - Margaret Gelling's Place Names in the Landscape is a classic for anyone interested. I was once rambling in the Bowland Hills near the hill that the OS map calls Hawthornthwaite Fell Top. I was speaking with a local farmer who laughed, saying no one here calls it that - it's 'ath n't - haha, of course!

 

[mikem]

Have borrowed a copy of Trevor Shaw's article & apparently there is an 1808 map showing Johnson's jacket hole where jockey hole is. Blackside cave appears on an 1846 survey, in the position of juniper gulf, & Atkinson's chamber is suggested as Long Kin cave, which just leaves Sir William's