Author Topic: Some good news on cave access  (Read 37752 times)

Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #225 on: April 07, 2014, 08:08:55 pm »
The BCA working group remit does not cover Wales so it will be up to the Cambrian CC to respond to the green paper consultation .....

This was (is) a huge issue in Wales and was central to the reformation of the CCC.

The current Access and Conservation officer is now already attending to this and it is hoped that it has not been left too late.

Ian
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Online droid

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #226 on: April 07, 2014, 08:13:33 pm »
In which case, badlad, the 'representative bodies' or the denizens thereof might be better engaged in this debate, rather than seemingly defending their status or that of their organisations.

Given their lack of meaningful communication with cavers, I'm not holding my breath.
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Offline Badlad

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #227 on: April 09, 2014, 10:16:57 am »

Since my last post seems to have killed off this lively debate, I do have a question of curiosity for Graham;

Why the Citizen Smith avatar?

I have fond memories of watching this TV comedy show.  Here's a description of the show taken from the web;

Citizen Smith starred Robert Lindsay as "Wolfie" Smith, a young Marxist urban revolutionary living in Tooting, South London, who is attempting to emulate his hero Che Guevara. Wolfie is the self-proclaimed leader of the Tooting Popular Front (in reality a small bunch of his friends) the goals of which are "Power to the People" and "Freedom for Tooting". In reality, he is an unemployed dreamer and petty criminal whose plans fall through due to laziness and disorganisation.

Clearly from your postings, 'Wolfie', would not hold your views.  Can you explain? 


Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #228 on: April 09, 2014, 10:20:52 am »
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.  8)

(Unlike the avatar I don't smoke ;) )
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Offline NigR

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #229 on: April 09, 2014, 11:51:32 am »
Since my last post seems to have killed off this lively debate.......

Yes, along with Ian's response, it certainly appears to have done so.

Must be the effect of people pondering over what is happening here in Wales!

Anyway, as there is a lull in the discussion, perhaps now is as good a time as any to put right a few (deliberate?) misconceptions concerning my own personal attitude towards the gating of caves. Although I would prefer all cave entrances to remain in their natural (ungated) state, I do accept that, for a variety of (sometimes valid) reasons, this is not always possible. So, (despite what some people would lead you to believe), I am not totally opposed to all cave gates purely on ideological grounds. If gates do not prevent cavers from visiting caves I have no real problem with them.

A specific example of this (in my own area, South Wales) would be Ogof Cnwc (Price's Dig) at Llangattock. The entrance is locked and gated but a key is available (on a permanent basis if so desired) to anyone (caving club members or individuals) who might want one. Although I remain unconvinced that a gate on this particular cave is absolutely essential, the means whereby access is obtained is just about as egalitarian as possible and, as such, is acceptable to me.

Also, in general terms, I am not opposed to the installation of 'lids' that can be easily opened with a readily available spanner (the "Derbyshire Key" idea). Interestingly, the first of these has recently been installed in South Wales and it is hoped that it will last somewhat longer than the previous lock which disappeared after nine days!

So, there you go, my brief attempt to put the record straight for what it's worth.

(Apologies to Graham for not addressing his specific points regarding his wonderful cave on the housing estate but I have seen that it has its own thread on the Mendip section so will do so there at a later date.)

Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #230 on: April 09, 2014, 03:54:25 pm »
I am happy for the clarification as, the last time that this issue was raised, no such clarification was forthcoming.
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Offline braveduck

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #231 on: April 09, 2014, 04:19:57 pm »
All quiet on the western front then,sure I can hear Silent Night.
Sleep well lads :clap2:

Offline Badlad

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #232 on: April 09, 2014, 09:48:40 pm »
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.  8)



I'm sure you are right, but I don't understand your reply either  :confused: Anyway it is not important.  On with the debate.....


Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #233 on: April 09, 2014, 09:55:50 pm »
All quiet on the western front then,sure I can hear Silent Night.
Sleep well lads :clap2:


And get the football ready eh? ;)
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #234 on: April 09, 2014, 09:57:56 pm »
Quote
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People" ;)

Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #235 on: April 09, 2014, 10:00:23 pm »
Quote
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People" ;)

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.
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Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #236 on: April 09, 2014, 10:34:08 pm »
Quote
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People" ;)

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

Thats only 'cos theres no decent caves in Acacia Avenue, wonder if "The Leck and Casterton Fells Popular Front" will ever take off? (P'raps not, too many syllables  ;D)
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Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #237 on: April 09, 2014, 10:49:33 pm »
For all you cynics out there, access to the "Derbyshire Key" ;
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=adjustable+spanners&rlz=1I7ADBR_en&prmd=ivns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=2b9FU9ztM-aI7Aar7YGwCA&ved=0CB4Qsxg

Most gates and caps in the area are installed for general public protection at the landowners insistance, we have found this an acceptable solution for both parties thanks to our access officer (at the time) who set the system up.
 Maybe  other areas could gain from our experience and start by asking the landowners about their reservations on caves/holes on their ground?
 How many ramblers and dog walkers carry a spanner?.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2014, 11:03:55 pm by bograt »
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Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #238 on: April 09, 2014, 11:07:30 pm »
Quote
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People" ;)

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

That's only 'cos there's no decent caves in Acacia Avenue,

Or indeed anywhere in Tooting. let's not push an analogy too far.
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Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #239 on: April 09, 2014, 11:23:33 pm »
Quote
I think you need a deeper understanding of socialist thought.

I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have championed the rights of the "Landowner Class" to deny access to "The People" ;)

And neither am I. However, I am pretty sure that the Tooting Popular Front never rioted and rampaged through the gardens in Acacia Avenue, either.

That's only 'cos there's no decent caves in Acacia Avenue,

Or indeed anywhere in Tooting. let's not push an analogy too far.

You chose the avatar! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline cavermark

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #240 on: April 09, 2014, 11:33:17 pm »
"Don't mess with my Toot Toot!"  :)

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #241 on: April 10, 2014, 01:46:47 pm »
2) Caves on CRoW Land where there is existing good will and a satisfactory access agreement
3) Caves on CRoW land where there is a poor relationship with Landowners and/or no or limited access
There is something missing between 1 and 2 - "Caves on CRoW land where there is existing but fragile good will, and a satisfactory access agreement" 
Bog -   Where do you think there is “fragile goodwill and a satisfactory access agreement”?

The article on Boxhead in Descent 219 says: "...during Wimbledon fortnight in June....".
What do you think is wrong with going down Boxhead during Wimbledon fortnight?

Offline bog4053

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #242 on: April 10, 2014, 05:26:24 pm »
Simon

I’ve always understood that Leck (and Casterton)  needed more work between Access Officer and Landowner than other areas.  You will remember that the access agreement on Casterton broke down completely some years ago and the permit system has never really recovered.  Judging by the number of permits given and the number of cavers on the fell  most cavers currently disregard the permit system on Casterton.  Leck is much better with a lot of permits being given out even if a lot of them aren’t used.  Caving on Leck Fell without permits has been a landowner concern but because of CNCC dialogue the Cupcake dig, which had many cars and many cavers on the fell,  was accepted even though the agreement limits the number of cavers and the number of cars.   CNCC has achieved good will because of its efforts to control access within the agreement and this good will led to a few permits been given out during the Close Season for 2011 (I think) for conservation work;  and car parking is now allowed at the gate by Notts II.  I say fragile not so much because there is danger of access being withdrawn but because we can’t take the good will extras for granted.  The permit system access has probably improved over the years.  That is entirely down to CNCC and is despite people disregarding the permit system.

I can only speak from a personal point of view when I say the permit system is satisfactory.  For popular caves at weekend we book a long time in advance and plan around availability.  For mid-week digging there has never been a problem getting as many permits as we want.  We used to get permits for every day we might use which hadn’t already been taken but recently we have just booked regular Fridays and got others at short notice.  I believe the short notice is an improvement because strictly the Land Agent wants permits agreed in advance by the end of each month.  If the short notice arrangement becomes the norm we will no longer need to ask for 20 permits a month when we may only need 5.  Previously you could only get short notice permits if another club already had one on that day and was prepared to offer it up because they weren’t using it.
I suspect the landowner probably accepted that people were in caves even within the close season and turned a blind eye to it.  I think it is one thing the landowner tolerating people being quietly and unofficially in Boxhead when the shouldn’t be, and turning a blind eye because no damage is being done.  It is quite another telling the entire caving world that you are blatantly disregarding the landowner wishes.  If June hadn’t been mentioned in the Descent article nobody would have thought anything of it. 
I am not a CNCC rep and don’t have a vote but you do and I hope as Earby representative on CNCC  you will support the Leck Fell permit system and help develop good will so we can improve access even more. 

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #243 on: April 10, 2014, 11:31:42 pm »
Bog, thank you for taking the time to write a lengthy reply.

 
Simon
I’ve always understood that Leck (and Casterton) needed more work between Access Officer and Landowner than other areas.  You will remember that the access agreement on Casterton broke down completely some years ago and the permit system has never really recovered.  Judging by the number of permits given and the number of cavers on the fell most cavers currently disregard the permit system on Casterton. 


The access agreement broke down during the prolonged, acrimonious dispute over the tenancy of Bull Pot Farm. Other people will no doubt see it from different perspectives but my impression is that CNCC member clubs were innocent victims, there was a serious loss of goodwill and that is why the permit system has been largely ignored by the majority of cavers ever since.

 
Leck is much better with a lot of permits being given out even if a lot of them aren’t used. 


Are you telling us people get permits then don’t use them? How do you know that?

... but because of CNCC dialogue the Cupcake dig, which had many cars and many cavers on the fell,  was accepted even though the agreement limits the number of cavers and the number of cars.   CNCC has achieved good will because of its efforts to control access within the agreement and this good will led to a few permits been given out during the Close Season for 2011 (I think) for conservation work;  and car parking is now allowed at the gate by Notts II.

Parking at Notts II is on the verge of a public highway.

I say fragile not so much because there is danger of access being withdrawn but because we can’t take the good will extras for granted. 


So now we are getting to it. There is nothing “fragile” about the access agreement; it is that you (the CNCC in-crowd) want to curry favour. What are these “good will extras”? Who gets goodwill extras? The whole issue with all the disgruntlement about the CNCC started partly because someone asked the Meets Secretary for permits for five caves on one day for a special project and was flatly refused. I am not the only person who was certain that if the ‘in-crowd’ wanted five permits on one day they would have got them no problem. Have the CNCC officers got the least bit of an inkling as to why they are getting so much flak?

The permit system access has probably improved over the years.  That is entirely down to CNCC and is despite people disregarding the permit system.


Are you certain it is entirely down to the CNCC? What about all the well behaved cavers who go to Leck Fell without permits, many of whom aren't even in CNCC clubs? What about the CRoW Act; are you sure the CRoW Act has not helped to improve the relationship?

I can only speak from a personal point of view when I say the permit system is satisfactory. 


I’m certain you are only speaking from a personal point of view; the point of view of someone who has privileged access. For the vast majority of cavers the permit system is a complete pain in the arse and that is why most don’t bother with it.

For mid-week digging there has never been a problem getting as many permits as we want.  We used to get permits for every day we might use which hadn’t already been taken


I assume you are talking about the monthly permits. Please explain all about the monthly permits and how it works. The Estate Manager must have been seen the permits with about 20 dates on one permit so that must be allowed under the access agreement. Or is the Estate Manager ignoring the access agreement as well?

 
If the short notice arrangement becomes the norm we will no longer need to ask for 20 permits a month when we may only need 5. 


I really don’t understand that. Why would you ask for 20 permits in a month when you only needed 5?

I suspect the landowner probably accepted that people were in caves even within the close season and turned a blind eye to it.


I expect that the landowner will be quite happy to accept that people are there under the CRoW Act.

  I think it is one thing the landowner tolerating people being quietly and unofficially in Boxhead when the shouldn’t be,


How can you say they shouldn’t be?

It is quite another telling the entire caving world that you are blatantly disregarding the landowner wishes.


Why do you think that anybody is disregarding the landowner’s wishes? Do you know what the landowners wishes are in this respect or are you just assuming?

  If June hadn’t been mentioned in the Descent article nobody would have thought anything of it. 


Apart from you, did anybody think anything of it?

I am not a CNCC rep and don’t have a vote but you do and I hope as Earby representative on CNCC  you will support the Leck Fell permit system and help develop good will so we can improve access even more.

At the moment I have little inclination to support the Leck Fell permit system. I have asked the CNCC officers to accept that they have abused the access agreement and to apologise to all BCA member clubs. I think that could be a starting point if the CNCC want to develop any goodwill.