Author Topic: Some good news on cave access  (Read 37757 times)

Offline Alex

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2014, 01:13:11 pm »
Quote
right of access (under CRoW) to open caves and potholes on the sides of mountains etc

To me I that reads as any cave without a gate or lid? As they are open, it does not appear to restrict how far you can go in. I mean you normally only count yourself as in doors if you are behind a door. So provided the cave has no door or gate you are still in the open air, as it's open at one end, no matter how far you are in the system unless say you free dive a sump?

So basically there quote does not tell us anything new as it can still be interpreted in different ways.
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2014, 01:48:39 pm »
I haven't read the article as my Descent subscription ran out recently but I'm sure people are going to keep pushing for access under CRoW.

I still think we've very little to gain from this and everything to lose.

I'm really not looking forward to the day I have a conversation with a farmer when I want to dig in his field and he refuses because some idiot has been protesting his CRoW rights to cave without permission.

I had a conversation with one farmer about a year ago after we emerged from a cave on his land where I thought we didn't need permission, entirely my fault, I hadn't bothered checking. It turned out we did and we were supposed to have paid a couple of quid each. We apologised, paid up and have been welcome back since. I can imagine how that conversation would have gone if one or two of the CRoW enthusiasts had been on the trip.



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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2014, 02:57:04 pm »
Which cave and which farmer was that?

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2014, 03:20:28 pm »
Which cave and which farmer was that?

It was a Derbyshire cave, I'd been down it two or three times over the years and hadn't realised a fee was payable.

It was all very friendly, but then I didn't advise him we had every right to be there.

The access arrangements for quite a few Derbyshire caves are an example of why it would only take one or two people to start crying "CRoW" to really screw things up for diggers. Granted the farmers who charge for P8 and Giants probably wouldn't want to fall out with cavers (and these aren't on Access land anyway) but some that are much less used probably wouldn't be too bothered about any loss of revenue.

I know I've asked before but just what are people hoping to gain by CRoW?

My impression is that people like Simon want to use CRoW as a big stick to "reform" the regional councils - or make them redundant. In other words it's a political move not one based on what's best for caving. Which caves do you expect to gain access to that you don't already have - I'm sure there's a few but I can't think of many?

As I said I haven't read Tim's article but I'm a long way from convinced that rewriting the explanation of what the Act means to suit your own goal is anything other than that, and certainly not "good news on cave access".
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Offline cavermark

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2014, 03:54:51 pm »

My impression is that people like Simon want to use CRoW as a big stick to "reform" the regional councils - or make them redundant. In other words it's a political move not one based on what's best for caving. Which caves do you expect to gain access to that you don't already have - I'm sure there's a few but I can't think of many?


This is nothing like the impression that I got from reading the article.

Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2014, 03:56:47 pm »
What cave in Derbyshire?

I'm scratching my head as to which caves are on CRoW and charge a fee. Granted I don't know every situation, but as one of the people on the CRoW Working Party I haven't come across any not mentioned - though I'm still ploughing through the list.

As for your comment about it being political and having a desire to reform the regions, I think you're way off there. In fact Derbyshire is a great example of an area with very few caves on CRoW land, yet we don't seem to have any of the (what I'll call) nonsense that we see in the Dales i.e. CRoW entrances that are off limits if you're wearing a caving suit (unless you don't mind waiting for permits)!

Nothing, that is on the agenda of people who might be seen as reformists, is intended to severe relations with landowners. No one is hell bent on "demanding" access and consequences be damned.

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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2014, 04:10:46 pm »
To save you
What cave in Derbyshire?

I'm scratching my head as to which caves are on CRoW and charge a fee. Granted I don't know every situation, but as one of the people on the CRoW Working Party I haven't come across any not mentioned - though I'm still ploughing through the list.

As for your comment about it being political and having a desire to reform the regions, I think you're way off there. In fact Derbyshire is a great example of an area with very few caves on CRoW land, yet we don't seem to have any of the (what I'll call) nonsense that we see in the Dales i.e. CRoW entrances that are off limits if you're wearing a caving suit (unless you don't mind waiting for permits)!


To save you looking it wasn't on CRoW land. My point was that if it had been the resulting argument could have damaged relations between farmer and cavers.

Quote
Nothing, that is on the agenda of people who might be seen as reformists, is intended to severe relations with landowners. No one is hell bent on "demanding" access and consequences be damned.

Based on conversations (in person, not here) recently with one or two of the "reformists" I'm very afraid you're very wrong, I wish you weren't. That's exactly what at least one of them seems to be demanding and he's shown no signs of caring what the consequences are. He refuses even to discuss it.
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Offline Ian Adams

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2014, 04:12:04 pm »
I'm really not looking forward to the day I have a conversation with a farmer when I want to dig in his field and he refuses because some idiot has been protesting his CRoW rights to cave without permission.

A reasonable concern.

Personally, I am very much in favour of CRoW and open access. I am also in favour of maintaining the best possible relationship with landowners for many reasons (digging aside) not least because it is their land. Good relationships with landowners serve as win/win scenarios. Bad ones do not.

I believe that the majority (if not all?) of the open access proponents will also be in favour of maintaining (at the very least) "good and proper" relations with landowners.

For my own thoughts, personally, I do not believe that CRoW will become a "weapon of war" against landowners.

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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2014, 04:20:11 pm »
To save you looking it wasn't on CRoW land. My point was that if it had been the resulting argument could have damaged relations between farmer and cavers.

My point was that if it had been on CRoW one assumes there would never have been a problem anyway. Not sure this proves or disproves anything.


Quote
Based on conversations (in person, not here) recently with one or two of the "reformists" I'm very afraid you're very wrong, I wish you weren't. That's exactly what at least one of them seems to be demanding and he's shown no signs of caring what the consequences are. He refuses even to discuss it.

Well luckily it won't get decided by "one person", which is why BCA is on it...


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Online droid

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2014, 04:59:02 pm »
On a local level it might be.

it only takes one idiot to annoy a farmer.....
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2014, 05:00:57 pm »
On a local level it might be.

it only takes one idiot to annoy a farmer.....

Just what I was about to say.
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Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2014, 05:46:07 pm »
I really don't understand the argument that allowing open access to caves on CRoW land would impact on relationships with landowners...

I understand the argument...Landowners want a say i who crosses their land...if they don't have the final say they will get the hump...and then be awkward for awkwards sake about sums it up...

So...have there been significant access problems on Land near Public Footpaths? Have caves that are currently on CRoW land but with no previous access restrictions become more restrictive overnight?

Or are we worrying over nothing...CRoW means landowners have had to accept unfettered access for walkers rambler birdspotters photographers climbers etc etc...has this instantly resulted in animosity between landowners and these groups...or is it a storm in a teacup...

Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2014, 06:05:59 pm »
I know of landowner who has recently refused permission for a dig, this person does own access to a cave and really is unhappy about people believing they have a right to be on his land. That is, I am sure, a large part of his reasoning against allowing a dig on another piece of land that he owns.

So, no it ain't theoretical and no I ain't going to tell you all who or where on an open forum 'cos I do not want any of the usual idiots suspects to do anything stupid which may exacerbate the situation.
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Offline braveduck

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2014, 06:21:49 pm »
Come on Graham ,one snow flake does not make a winter !

Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2014, 06:25:29 pm »
Come on Graham ,one snow flake does not make a winter !

I merely give a concrete example of something that some ostriches cavers claim has never happened and will never happen.
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #40 on: April 02, 2014, 07:04:36 pm »
Come on Graham ,one snow flake does not make a winter !

One caver insisting on his "right" to cave could easily lose us access to a dozen potential digs.

One upset farmer could easily chat to his neighbour and both, or more could decide to agree no more digging permission, or even withdraw existing permissions.

Why risk it, especially for so few benefits?
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #41 on: April 02, 2014, 07:06:19 pm »
So the message seems to be some cavers are idiots and will antagonise landowners through their actions. That has more to do with some people being idiots than what access is or isn't allowed in future.
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Offline cavermark

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2014, 07:10:13 pm »
On a local level it might be.

it only takes one idiot to annoy a farmer.....


There are many ways that landowners could be annoyed besides someone reasoning with them for access on CRow land.

I don't think this should prevent reasonable, calm discussion with landowners about access (especially with the argument that they have reduced liability).
Morevoer, if a precedent is set that cavers do have free access, and all surrounding landowners allow access and digging, this will go a long way to persuading the individual objectionable landowners. (in the same way that a farmer can spread negative words about cavers, they can also spread positives).

One or two farmers will remain steadfast in objecting - but maybe we have to let them be and go elsewhere for a year or two.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #43 on: April 02, 2014, 07:15:08 pm »
Quote
I know of landowner who has recently refused permission for a dig, this person does own access to a cave and really is unhappy about people believing they have a right to be on his land.

But presumably this isn't in any way related to CRoW legislation...as its not been used to secure access to any Caves as yet has it...

Presumably this is a farmer unhappy about Unauthorised access to Caves on his land...fair point I can (just about) see the logic of that but if CRoW legislation were to apply to caving that would result in authorised access to Caves on his land...and Cavers would, presumably make up a very small proportion of people on his land...as cavers are a very small minority compared to Hikers, Dog Walkers etc...

Online Badlad

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #44 on: April 02, 2014, 09:31:14 pm »
I haven't read the article as my Descent subscription ran out recently but I'm sure people are going to keep pushing for access under CRoW.



Could I suggest you read the article as it is very informative on this subject.


Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #45 on: April 02, 2014, 10:20:26 pm »
I suspect we are approaching the key point I have been trying to get across for decades; EDUCATION!, if cavers understood farmers more, and farmers understood cavers more, what a happier world it would be for all concerned.

 I recall a time when a cave owning farmer broke an arm in the middle of haymaking and was very worried and stressed, one of the local caving clubs pulled together to help him get his harvest in, result- no problems with access for that club, and eventual ease of access for all, he was educated that cavers could be useful!

 Another local cave owning farmer was stretched for help at lambing time, a few cavers offered and gave assistance, result- access (and quite a lot of help from the farmer) to a previously forbidden dig and some passage found, along with a lot of understanding of the local hydrology.
 
All it takes is everyone understanding each other and appreciating each others way of life, if one caving numpty antagonises a farmer, its up to the more sensible ones among us (you) to discourage them and teach the farmers that we (you) are not all bad.

I understand both sides, as a Peak District farmer (thankfully on Gritstone, so no caves) and a Peak District caver of loong experience, I did however gain my farming experience on a cave owning farm.
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Offline Cripplecreeker

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #46 on: April 02, 2014, 10:58:19 pm »
There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

Offline kay

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #47 on: April 02, 2014, 11:01:27 pm »

Or are we worrying over nothing...CRoW means landowners have had to accept unfettered access for walkers rambler birdspotters photographers climbers etc etc...has this instantly resulted in animosity between landowners and these groups...or is it a storm in a teacup...

CRoW hasn't resulted in much extra access for ramblers etc - research on the effects showed that most people stayed on the existing footpaths. But caves aren't necessarily near footpaths, so in some areas, could it be conceivable that CRoW access for cavers would actually have more effect than CRoW access for everyone else?

Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #48 on: April 02, 2014, 11:05:16 pm »
There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

A point I made some days ago is that situations vary greatly from caving area to caving area, such that using national laws to define what happens in very different areas is not a good idea.
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Offline Cripplecreeker

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #49 on: April 02, 2014, 11:14:28 pm »

A point I made some days ago is that situations vary greatly from caving area to caving area, such that using national laws to define what happens in very different areas is not a good idea.

Personally I think that in the Dales, and certainly on the fells owned by the estates we probably have more to gain than lose through using the CRoW legislation (a last resort really). I can see why elsewhere in the country this might stack up differently.