Author Topic: Some good news on cave access  (Read 37756 times)

Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #50 on: April 02, 2014, 11:24:46 pm »
There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

Thanks for that insight George, Has anyone approached the "Lord Lieutenant",or even  "our Charlie" for clarification??
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Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2014, 08:13:59 am »
There seems to be a lot of talk about farmers here, which isn't particularly relevant to the situation in the Dales, where the majority of the caves with restricted access are owned by estates. I guess other caving areas of the country are fortunate that their caves lie on farm land, rather than grouse moor. I suspect it's rather harder for instance to form a relationship built on mutual understanding with, for instance, the lord lieutenant of lancashire, than it is with one of the farmers who live and work on the fells!

G.

Thanks for that insight George, Has anyone approached the "Lord Lieutenant",or even  "our Charlie" for clarification??
In the North that would be the job of the CNCC Access Officer and unless the incumbent officer stands down that isn't going to happen.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2014, 08:16:11 am »

Or are we worrying over nothing...CRoW means landowners have had to accept unfettered access for walkers rambler birdspotters photographers climbers etc etc...has this instantly resulted in animosity between landowners and these groups...or is it a storm in a teacup...

CRoW hasn't resulted in much extra access for ramblers etc - research on the effects showed that most people stayed on the existing footpaths. But caves aren't necessarily near footpaths, so in some areas, could it be conceivable that CRoW access for cavers would actually have more effect than CRoW access for everyone else?

Which research is that?

We have already had CRoW access for cavers for the same length of time as access "for everyone else".

Offline blackholesun

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2014, 01:04:30 pm »
Seems to me that lots of people are using examples from around the country. Surely, most of the time, CROW discussions are about the Dales, as that is where most of the caves on CROW land are and most of the complaints about access are (in England).

Saying that there are farmers who own non CROW land above a cave and who would be annoyed if someone tried to assert that they had access rights to the cave is not really very relevant.

Also, there appears to be a big and unsaid divide between the possible effects for sport caving and digging that is confusing this topic as people aren't making it explicit.

One person says; CROW could bring lots of benefits (meaning to sport caving)
The other says; No, that is completely wrong, there will be no benefits (meaning to digging access)

Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2014, 01:12:16 pm »
A point I made earlier is that although, yes, most discussions around caving and CRoW are about the North, the Law doesn't just apply up there & can affect others in other parts of the country in, possibly, unforeseen ways.

Thus using national law to tackle local problems may not be the best way forward.
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2014, 01:32:31 pm »
Seems to me that lots of people are using examples from around the country. Surely, most of the time, CROW discussions are about the Dales, as that is where most of the caves on CROW land are and most of the complaints about access are (in England).

Saying that there are farmers who own non CROW land above a cave and who would be annoyed if someone tried to assert that they had access rights to the cave is not really very relevant.

Also, there appears to be a big and unsaid divide between the possible effects for sport caving and digging that is confusing this topic as people aren't making it explicit.

One person says; CROW could bring lots of benefits (meaning to sport caving)
The other says; No, that is completely wrong, there will be no benefits (meaning to digging access)

Sorry, I thought I'd been pretty clear.

I appreciate there will be some benefits for sports access, although I can't see that there will be lots. I am very concerned that there will be problems with digging access as a result. We have pretty good access to most Dales caves and I'm sure we could get more permits for places like Leck and Casterton if CNCC pushed for them. Equally I'm not too concerned about the big landowners, it's the local farmers who are likely to take things personally.

I think there's a big difference between cavers annoying a farmer a bit by caving without permission on his land (a bit irritating, but if challenged they'll usually apologise and sort things out) and he or she being told "we have right to be here". It is only my opinion at the end of the day but the latter invites retaliation and the only real way farmers on CRoW land could retaliate is by refusing digging permission - and from experience they will do.

We've been refused digging permission before where farmers have been annoyed other people have been digging without asking, one caver demanding his rights will be like a red rag to a bull.

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Offline TheBitterEnd

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2014, 01:39:42 pm »
Well said blackholesun, obviously good relations with landowners are vital and an ideal system would include all the concerns of every faction and one-man-band in the caving world. However the vast majority of cavers just want to go caving so tailoring an access system around a minority of diggers or a miniscule number of very exceptional cases is at best unhelpful and more likely than not contributes to the sort of acrimony that we have seen with respect to the CNCC.

Exceptional situations are by definition exceptions, the CRoW act allows for such exceptions, for example section 26 subsection 3a allows for exclusion or restriction of access for "the purpose of conserving flora, fauna or geological or physiographical features of the land in question".

In terms of national and local “caving policy” we surely must use a guiding principal of what will bring most benefit to most cavers and then build from there.
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2014, 01:47:26 pm »
Quote
tailoring an access system around a minority of diggers

I think diggers are in the majority nowadays in the Dales, at least in terms of man hours spent caving in any given week say :-)
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2014, 02:02:08 pm »
Equally I'm not too concerned about the big landowners, it's the local farmers who are likely to take things personally.

We've been refused digging permission before where farmers have been annoyed other people have been digging without asking, one caver demanding his rights will be like a red rag to a bull.


1 - By definition CRoW land is for the most part uncultivated. Without bothering to look, I'll hazard a guess that it'll have very little impact on farmers (this is almost a repeat of what George North said). Any that are should be dealt with locally and with sympathy.

2 - Diggers going on to land and digging without permission has nothing to do with CRoW. Maybe it's the diggers causing the problems!!  :bounce:
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Offline TheBitterEnd

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2014, 02:09:00 pm »
Nah, last night at one location alone there were two parties of around 6, so 12 people doing around 3-4 hours caving - say 42 caver hours at one mid-week location in two caves.
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Offline Blakethwaite

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2014, 02:14:39 pm »
1 - By definition CRoW land is for the most part uncultivated.
That depends upon what you class as uncultivated. Large swathes of CRoW land are subject to very expensive moorland management schemes, for sporting purposes and for general ecological/conservation/blah-de-blah purposes. It certainly isn't 'wild' land.

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2014, 02:22:16 pm »
Equally I'm not too concerned about the big landowners, it's the local farmers who are likely to take things personally.

We've been refused digging permission before where farmers have been annoyed other people have been digging without asking, one caver demanding his rights will be like a red rag to a bull.


1 - By definition CRoW land is for the most part uncultivated. Without bothering to look, I'll hazard a guess that it'll have very little impact on farmers (this is almost a repeat of what George North said). Any that are should be dealt with locally and with sympathy.

2 - Diggers going on to land and digging without permission has nothing to do with CRoW. Maybe it's the diggers causing the problems!!  :bounce:

1. I've had a quick look, George did say that but it's not true - many, many Dales caves are on access land owned run by local farmers. Most Dales caves are on fells, not cultivated land (I assume you don't include fells as cultivated). No idea what the split is, someone may know.

I'm not biting on the second point and the numbers game with TheBitterEnd is getting off topic :-)

Anyway, I've made my point so I'll shut up.
 
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Offline bograt

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2014, 03:14:59 pm »
Be careful with your definitions, the CRoW act states "unimproved land", not "cultivated"
 Although cultivated land is "improved", not all "improved" land is cultivated.
 "unimproved land" is usually used for rough grazing, mainly sheep, it is likely that the farmers main objection to digging is the hazard to livestock.
 The large estates maintain their "unimproved land" for a variety of reasons, not least being the lucrative business of game breeding for shooting, a knowledge of nesting and breeding patterns for these creatures should be a necessity for anyone using the fells on a regular basis.
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Offline Cripplecreeker

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2014, 03:36:12 pm »

1. I've had a quick look, George did say that but it's not true - many, many Dales caves are on access land owned run by local farmers. Most Dales caves are on fells, not cultivated land (I assume you don't include fells as cultivated). No idea what the split is, someone may know....

Hi Tony, that's not what I said. I said that: "the majority of the caves with restricted access (i.e the ones requiring permits rather than just knocking on somebody's door) are owned by estates."
Do you disagree?

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2014, 03:48:12 pm »
And I was going to shut up!

OK, very quickly. I agree that the majority with restricted access are owned by estates BUT I don't agree with Stuart's statement:

Quote
By definition CRoW land is for the most part uncultivated. Without bothering to look, I'll hazard a guess that it'll have very little impact on farmers (this is almost a repeat of what George North said). Any that are should be dealt with locally and with sympathy

Sorry, I was too quick to assume he was right about what you had said, and to be honest I'd read it the same way.

There are, as I'm sure you'll agree, a lot of caves on CRoW land which is owned by farmers, not estates. At the moment we generally have very good access and my worry is about those areas.
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Offline Stuart Anderson

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2014, 04:20:25 pm »
And I was going to shut up!

OK, very quickly. I agree that the majority with restricted access are owned by estates BUT I don't agree with Stuart's statement:

Quote
By definition CRoW land is for the most part uncultivated. Without bothering to look, I'll hazard a guess that it'll have very little impact on farmers (this is almost a repeat of what George North said). Any that are should be dealt with locally and with sympathy

Sorry, I was too quick to assume he was right about what you had said, and to be honest I'd read it the same way.

There are, as I'm sure you'll agree, a lot of caves on CRoW land which is owned by farmers, not estates. At the moment we generally have very good access and my worry is about those areas.

Which bit don't you agree with?

That most CRoW land is uncultivated/unimproved/fell (point taken Blakethwaite)? It is, in the main. Look at a map.

That the impact will be, in the main (and by that I mean in the Dales in this case), to the estates? You've just agreed it is, haven't you?

There probably are a lot of caves on CRoW that is owned by farmers. Kingsdale would be a good area to look at (though I don't know who owns which bits). Mainly CRoW land. Lots of caves with access requiring no permits. Has there been much trouble in Kingsdale? What is there to worry about?  :shrug: (And yes, I get it, forcing the CRoW hand on the estates - because that on the whole is what is really being discussed - might lead to poor relationships and digging being prohibited. But again, no one is saying that is to be the hand that will be played.)





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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2014, 04:40:59 pm »
I don't agree it'll have very little impact on farmers.

I haven't just agreed the impact will be in the main to the estates - I've agreed that most caves with restricted access are on estates which I think is what George actually said and I accept there is some benefit from CRoW on access on the estates where limits currently apply.

I don't agree the problem is from forcing CRoW on estates - I think they'll probably accept it.

My concern is for the very areas you've just mentioned, places like Kingsdale as you say, where upsetting farmers can damage what are presently reasonably good relations and there is nothing to be gained from CRoW - we already have all the access we need but in some areas we still need permission.

There are areas of Kingsdale where although no permit is needed permission is still required. Many people perhaps don't realise this or ignore it. these are the sort of areas where a problem is likely to arise.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 04:50:12 pm by Bottlebank »
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Offline badger

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2014, 04:58:20 pm »
I have been told (rightly or wrongly) that the reason the owners and as this is as much to do with leck/caserton fell that the reason they the landowners wanted permit access was not to restrict cavers caving, but cars parked in/on the road around the entrance's,
So if under the CROW legislation cave's became unrestricted would this cause more cars to be parked and then therefore upset the farmers more?
and if then the caves became unrestricted and anyone caving could enter, is there anyway of telling the experience with in the group, mind you is that something that is checked any way.
and am I right in thinking most digging happens mid week, and sport caving on a weekend cant see that the two come into conflict.
or is the above just jibberish :shrug:

Offline Jon

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2014, 06:11:34 pm »
If parking is the issue then with the landowners permission couldn't CNCC / BCA organise a car park building day - gravel, manpower, hey presto, no cars parked on verges

Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2014, 09:41:30 pm »

I know I've asked before but just what are people hoping to gain by CRoW?


I would gain access to some cracking Dales caving whenever I wanted to go, with whoever I wanted to go with. I wouldn't need the hoop jumping of joining a club, getting insurance, applying for permits...
As an ex club caver who curently doesn't want to be part of a club, it would give me the opportunity (if I felt so inclinced), to go and revisit some classics with a few mates.

Dan.
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Offline graham

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2014, 09:46:40 pm »

I know I've asked before but just what are people hoping to gain by CRoW?


I would gain access to some cracking Dales caving whenever I wanted to go, with whoever I wanted to go with. I wouldn't need the hoop jumping of joining a club, getting insurance, applying for permits...
As an ex club caver who curently doesn't want to be part of a club, it would give me the opportunity (if I felt so inclinced), to go and revisit some classics with a few mates.

Dan.

Even better, as a non-joiner, you wouldn't need to be bothered joining in with the helpful stuff like car park building, if that was deemed to be useful in caver/landowner relations.

All round winner.
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Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2014, 09:59:44 pm »

Even better, as a non-joiner, you wouldn't need to be bothered joining in with the helpful stuff like car park building, if that was deemed to be useful in caver/landowner relations.

All round winner.

That is one of the most Trolling comments anyone has ever posted to a reply I've made on any thread here on UK Caving. Why don't you crawl back into your hole Graham and fuck off!

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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2014, 10:03:29 pm »
What's wrong with being insured? It's a serious question - is it not a valuable thing to have, and not "just a hoop to jump through"?

Offline cavermark

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2014, 10:11:38 pm »

I know I've asked before but just what are people hoping to gain by CRoW?


I would gain access to some cracking Dales caving whenever I wanted to go, with whoever I wanted to go with. I wouldn't need the hoop jumping of joining a club, getting insurance, applying for permits...
As an ex club caver who curently doesn't want to be part of a club, it would give me the opportunity (if I felt so inclinced), to go and revisit some classics with a few mates.

Dan.

You'll have to find some mates first Dan  :tease:

Offline danthecavingman

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Re: Some good news on cave access
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2014, 10:12:54 pm »
What's wrong with being insured?

Nothing Peter, I'm for it in principle but I thought it was done through being a member of a BCA affiliated club? I may be wrong in which case insurance would seem to be prudent.
If membership of the BCA allowed access via the CNCC then that would be great but individual members cannot apply for permits.

And Graham, last time I went walking on CROW Land I don't recall having to help build a carpark before I set off into the hills...

Dan.
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