Author Topic: Would you change your vote now?  (Read 22238 times)

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #175 on: June 30, 2016, 04:28:13 pm »
As most British people speak neither German nor Japanese, but as most Germans and Japanese can (at the very least) understand and probably communicate in basic English, you can see this equation isn't working out too well for us...

I sympathise with much of what you have written and am concerned that if this work is available for a reasonable wage - why aren't the local British in on the act? I guess fee movement of labour does create a competitive environment for jobs but then we have laws to regulate minimum wage etc (I am sure it is still not enough) and so they can't be driven too low.  As for your final comment - eventually we will be surrounded by robots and then we get onto the arguement about a government guaranteed basic income....

However the section I quote above I would like to raise the point that neither of those nationalities are born speaking English, yes they have more exposure to it given the global dominance of English as a language but they have had to work at it.  We have always been lazy with learning other languages; with globalisation and free movement of people that needs to change. My kids will end up learning languages much earlier than I did (I know enough German to be dangerous, also enough to have painfully awkward conversations with German coastguard when I asked him if he spoke German), my niece is learning Spanish and sign language and she is 8. I think that's fantastic.  I have been doing a lot of work out in Japan but I will be honest, I haven't tried to learn much other than the usual greetings.  Maybe the next generation won't be able to get away with this.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #176 on: June 30, 2016, 04:35:15 pm »
I guess that's one the 'downsides' of us running much of the world when it was developing into the Industrial Age - everyone speaks the lingo. And yet - when I did French at school (the only language option), there was no incentive for me to put this into practise outside the school other than to move to France - we couldn't afford foreign holidays in those days. Similarly, no-one speaks German except Germans. So it's far more difficult for British people to integrate on the wider continent than it is for the wider continent to integrate with us. That clearly needs to change.

Offline Brains

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #177 on: June 30, 2016, 07:22:16 pm »


Some thoughts on the ECHR - which is independent of the EU so a bit off topic, but still amusing

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #178 on: June 30, 2016, 07:46:09 pm »
But any fool knows you only move to a country richer than your own to make that work, in which case we have the US (UK residents can't move there without a guaranteed and sponsored job), Germany or Japan. As most British people speak neither German nor Japanese, but as most Germans and Japanese can (at the very least) understand and probably communicate in basic English, you can see this equation isn't working out too well for us...

And all the Eastern Europeans had the advantage that they were all born speaking English? Or did they just put in that little extra effort and get far more fluent than the average Brit does in any other language (myself included in that).

In some ways we have a massive advantage because English is such an international language, particularly in things like science, that we can travel around the world and work and not even bother to learn the language. I have always viewed the fear of people coming over and 'taking our jobs' in a somewhat cynical way - if you can't compete with 'immigrants' despite being born into one of the richest and best educated countries in the world, speaking the native language and having the home advantage (changing countries can be quite a complicated and stressful process even with free movement) then what hope do we have in the world?

BUT I also recognise that austerity and other cultural policies has left swathes of the populace culturally abandoned, undereducated and with little hope for the future despite all the apparent advantages of being British. Honestly, if you want to 'make Britain great' then start working for the British - all the British - instead of just closing shop as we fail to invest in our own people.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #179 on: June 30, 2016, 07:53:03 pm »
I guess that's one the 'downsides' of us running much of the world when it was developing into the Industrial Age - everyone speaks the lingo. And yet - when I did French at school (the only language option), there was no incentive for me to put this into practise outside the school other than to move to France - we couldn't afford foreign holidays in those days. Similarly, no-one speaks German except Germans. So it's far more difficult for British people to integrate on the wider continent than it is for the wider continent to integrate with us. That clearly needs to change.

Slightly repeating myself, but I would argue the complete opposite. You will get further in Europe with English than you will with French or German. Equivalently, the Germans won't get very far in Europe unless they learn other languages. Part of the reason I have always believed British people find it hard to become fluent in other languages compared to Europeans is that culturally the world language is English to some degree. When you go to other countries you will often see stuff in English, often for the 'cool' international feel. The major world's media is in English - for example music. There is thus a higher incentive to learn English if you are French/German than the reverse.

In science, which is probably an extreme example, English-speaking people have an advantage because all science happens (at least nearly all astrophysics in my experience) in English. If you do a PhD in Astrophysics in Prague you have to pass tests in English. If you are British you can work around the world without ever learning another language - I have friends who have worked in Germany, the Czech Republic, France, Japan...

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #180 on: June 30, 2016, 08:01:52 pm »
If you want to trade internationally, learn foreign languages. If you want to be competitive on the continent you need to speak the Continent's languages. But by speaking English you have a bit of a headstart on everybody else - if you choose not to use it then you have no one else to blame...

In science, which is probably an extreme example, English-speaking people have an advantage because all science happens (at least nearly all astrophysics in my experience) in English. If you do a PhD in Astrophysics in Prague you have to pass tests in English. If you are British you can work around the world without ever learning another language - I have friends who have worked in Germany, the Czech Republic, France, Japan...

Offline pwhole

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #181 on: June 30, 2016, 09:02:32 pm »
Yeah, I should have probably qualified all that by adding that in the scenarios I described, ideally one would learn and use the native language, and that was the disadvantage I meant. I always feel a bit guilty that so many speak English, but I guess it can be pretty good for us if the locals don't mind.

But one of my mates from Rotherham moved to Athens many years ago (as an adult), and we were all astonished that despite him not knowing a word of Greek when he left, he seemed to be thriving - so I had to go and see for myself what was going on. After about three years there, he'd become completely fluent, and could hold long conversations with anyone he met. I was baffled by this, as he'd never shown much aptitude for languages at school (his description), but I didn't know anything about Greek. Once he'd explained to me that it was essentially phonetic, and that nearly all words spelled in a certain way nearly always sounded the same (there were a few exceptions, but no 'ough' issues whatsoever), it was just a matter of learning the alphabet and getting stuck in. And even I managed a bit in two weeks - which I've completely forgotten now of course.

Mind you, chatting to some of his Greek friends about their attitudes to taxation made me worry, and I remember one spectacularly-enhanced evening on a balcony where we argued for hours about the realities of paying or not paying taxes when you can afford them - in-between endless Retsina, smearing glow-stick fluid on our faces and jumping about a lot. But the general impression I got was of a very laissez-faire attitude to administration and governance, which then came back and bit them a couple of years back.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #182 on: June 30, 2016, 09:31:05 pm »

Online royfellows

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2016, 09:44:31 pm »

The Chilcott inquiry into the Iraq war is due to be published in a matter of days and is expected to be extremely critical of Tony Blair.


Truth out?

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Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2016, 11:48:04 pm »
Probably. He did piss on his chips, bigstyle there.

Could have been a good PM. Then again, so could Cameron, and Boris.

Offline RobinGriffiths

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #185 on: June 30, 2016, 11:50:35 pm »
Ooh, yes. Excellent suggestion on Twitter. 'Boris for Top Gear'. Now THAT could work.

Offline crickleymal

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #186 on: July 01, 2016, 12:41:24 am »
If you want to trade internationally, learn foreign languages. If you want to be competitive on the continent you need to speak the Continent's languages. But by speaking English you have a bit of a headstart on everybody else - if you choose not to use it then you have no one else to blame...

In science, which is probably an extreme example, English-speaking people have an advantage because all science happens (at least nearly all astrophysics in my experience) in English. If you do a PhD in Astrophysics in Prague you have to pass tests in English. If you are British you can work around the world without ever learning another language - I have friends who have worked in Germany, the Czech Republic, France, Japan...

As an aside, my father who was an industrial chemist had to learn German because back in the period around the war Germany was the preeminent nation as regards chemistry.
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Offline pwhole

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #187 on: July 01, 2016, 02:10:39 am »
Frank Zappa used to maintain that whenever God had something truly serious and heavy to say to his followers, he'd say it in German.

Offline Laurie

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #188 on: July 01, 2016, 02:39:02 am »
I think my parents generation should be the last to get a government pension.
We do not get a government pension!
We've paid into it all our lives through taxes, social security and graduated pension payments.
It's not a freebee!
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #189 on: July 01, 2016, 06:58:56 am »
I think Boris realises that he wouldn't win.

I also suspect that MP's will not vote to initiate Article 50, and we won't leave the EU.

It'll be interesting to see what historians make of it in 20 years time.

Should Article 50 not be invoked, then really bad things are going to happen. Think about how little incentive to go throw things at the police some of the Leave lot are going to need?  Then imagine an awful lot of them doing it, all over the island. Even if it's tried to just "ignore" the issue and not say anything, tensions will grow.
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Offline MJenkinson

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2016, 07:37:42 am »
Never said it was however from a cash flow POV I dont actually think it's your tax / NI payments that fund your pension. It's mine. And cash is king. The aging population means there are less tax paying individuals to support this pension burden. Keep yours, my mum and dad can have theirs but I look after myself. I have a private pension, my employers give me one - the pension I get from the state will be useless for my generation. In effect then the "saving" from cutting this pension might only last a generation or so as it would be a bit off to tax is the same and not provide the same benefits.

My main point still stands. My Grandad was having a moan the other day about foreigners and waiting times at the doctors. I pointed out that it's not Pawel that I see sat in the waiting room, it's Mavis and Bernard. We are getting old as a population and that's not financially productive.

Offline Rhys

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #191 on: July 01, 2016, 09:51:40 am »
I think my parents generation should be the last to get a government pension.
We do not get a government pension!
We've paid into it all our lives through taxes, social security and graduated pension payments.


Not really. You made contributions which nominally entitle you to a state pension. That money didn't go in to a pension pot with your name on it. It went into general government revenue. The government decides how much to give back to you. It sets the rules on who gets what and by how much it increases - as it sees fit. If times are tough, they'll give you less.

Offline Madness

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #192 on: July 01, 2016, 01:50:50 pm »
I think Boris realises that he wouldn't win.

I also suspect that MP's will not vote to initiate Article 50, and we won't leave the EU.

It'll be interesting to see what historians make of it in 20 years time.

Should Article 50 not be invoked, then really bad things are going to happen. Think about how little incentive to go throw things at the police some of the Leave lot are going to need?  Then imagine an awful lot of them doing it, all over the island. Even if it's tried to just "ignore" the issue and not say anything, tensions will grow.

Indeed.

There's plenty of extremists/anarchists out there just looking for a reason to kick off.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #193 on: July 01, 2016, 07:46:57 pm »
That threat was made explicit by Farrage.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: Would you change your vote now?
« Reply #194 on: July 01, 2016, 11:40:40 pm »
That threat was made explicit by Farrage.


If that idiot can see it coming, then surely no-one would be stupid enough to "just ignore it" or outright refuse?
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