Author Topic: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue  (Read 6702 times)

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2017, 12:11:44 pm »
"But the key point is that Cave rescuing is very much a part of the longstanding UK caving Identity, and one which many of us would like to see continue. It has been around for nearly as long as your Empire State building. In our eyes it is an icon of our continued support for each other, you will not win any friends over here by belittling it!"

Winning friends is about as useful to me as is the Empire State Building...
Cave rescue is a good thing with good people involved. I am not belittling it, only saying that individual cavers shouldn't depend on it to the extent that they neglect their own skills or preparation. This subject of the attitude of rescuers came up because a previous post suggested that rescuers want to know about every incident, whether their help is needed or not. This fit with my experience of US rescue being an adventure/ego hobby and I went too far to make that connection, which may not be applicable in tbe UK.

Offline pwhole

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2017, 12:36:14 pm »
The Billy Wilder movie Ace in the Hole, starring Kirk Douglas, stunningly covers the concept of self-promotion and generated media-interest via cave rescue (or not), and is an absolute masterpiece - full of karmic significance for all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_in_the_Hole_(1951_film)

Offline alastairgott

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2017, 12:47:23 pm »
About as much use as an air freshener in a pig farm then.

This subject of the attitude of rescuers came up because a previous post suggested that rescuers want to know about every incident, whether their help is needed or not.

Not familiar with the original topic but in some cases, for people "arriving" on scene, They might want or need to call it in as they will then be insured.

A key example of this was an incident in Derbyshire, where a group of people came down from a cave looking for a ladder to help their friend get up a pitch. On discussion this was called in but people present, half rescue half not, were able to use brand new gear to act swiftly, and haul the person up.

Clearly different situations are vastly different. If you're at the bottom of the cave and there's something you can do, you just get on with it!
 But entering a cave with the intent of rescuing someone is vastly different as you're putting yourself in a position of Authority and responsibility.
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Offline paul

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2017, 12:47:48 pm »
The Billy Wilder movie Ace in the Hole, starring Kirk Douglas, stunningly covers the concept of self-promotion and generated media-interest via cave rescue (or not), and is an absolute masterpiece - full of karmic significance for all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_in_the_Hole_(1951_film)

Yes, based on the attempted rescue of Floyd Collins.

For a taste of CRO's activities in the Dales in the 90's, the following videos on YouTube from "Cutting Edge: Cave Rescue" are worth watching (especially the scenes in Bernies in Ingleton pre-Steve Round's era!):

Part 1:



Part 2:

I'm not a complete idiot: some parts are missing!

Offline A_Northerner

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2017, 06:28:35 pm »
I love those cave rescue videos - especially the one where you get to see Tony Seddon of Starless River getting escorted out of Quaking!

Brilliant quote from the rescue team: "This is fucking typical, it's gonna cost him at least a bloody barrel!".
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Offline nickwilliams

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2017, 07:15:03 pm »
The last six minutes of part 1 brings back some memories!
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Offline Kenilworth

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2017, 03:18:39 am »
The Billy Wilder movie Ace in the Hole, starring Kirk Douglas, stunningly covers the concept of self-promotion and generated media-interest via cave rescue (or not), and is an absolute masterpiece - full of karmic significance for all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_in_the_Hole_(1951_film)

That's perhaps an overstatement, but it has some moments.
The Collins story isn't really about caving or cave rescue, it was another thing entirely. But there are traces of the same luridity to be found in some modern rescue situations. American Caving Accidents, for example, was started with the stated intention of publishing accounts of incidents in the hope that they would be instructive and protective. Before long, as cave recue became a sort of club of its own, ACA became a place for rescuers to tally their exploits. The premise of the publication was never really sound to begin with; there isn't usually a lot to be learned from caving accidents. Anyway submissions dealt primarily with the gory details of the accident and rescue/recovery efforts, with a line or two dedicated to some obvious "lesson". It became entertainment, with a heavy dose of glory-hounding.

It is now popular to boast of your latest cave rescue online. It is common for cavers to travel great distances to be on hand for a rescue which they are in no way needed for, not asked to attend, and in fact incapable of assisting in. But they were There. Something like the Collins circus anyway.

American cavers have a nauseating motto "Cavers rescue spelunkers" by which they pretend superiority over those who are their equal by any worthy measure. They take great glee in sneering at idiotic non-affiliated cave explorers who manage to get hurt, or lost. When a Real Caver needs help, they switch to tones of sacrifice and fraternity and noble bravery, assemble to help the Caver out of his usually self-inflicted jam, then rush to Facebook to tell the world.

Well, that's the worst of it. There are also talented and truly kind and technically brilliant people who have been instrumental in saving lives, or trying to. There have been many lives saved by the worst sort of cave rescuers too, so that atones for the cultural problems.

But cavers should be doing their part to try and make formal rescue unneeded. Chris' assertion that led to the half-assed technical discussion earlier in this thread was completely legitimate and accurate. The existence of a rescue organization does not mean we can learn the bare basics of underground travel and be satisfied. Especially where srt is involved. Difficulty on rope is one of the most common and persistent causes of rescue incidents. People learn to go down and go up by a formulaic process involving a fixed array of particular gear. Then they quit learning. I say we have the responsibility to keep learning. If we lead trips with those who are content with absolute basics, we have an even greater responsibility. And if we can't persuade them to take their right share of it we then have the responsibility to leave them off our trips.


Offline mikem

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2017, 07:58:41 am »
Not necessarily to do with ability, it's more if they fit with your ethos.

Mike

Offline Hasbeen caver

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2017, 08:26:30 am »
The last six minutes of part 1 brings back some memories!

Which dig / breakthrough is it, Nick?

Offline Fulk

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2017, 09:41:00 am »
Kenilworth:
Quote
Difficulty on rope is one of the most common and persistent causes of rescue incidents.
in the USA.

This does not seem to be the case in Britain, where there are relatively few 'SRT rescues'.

This is, of course, pure speculation, but I wonder if the reason for this might lie in the following. I get the impression that in the States there are any number of disparate groups whose members use equally disparate techniques for getting down and up pitches, whereas in Britain the 'caving community' (for want of a better phrase) is somewhat more homogeneous, and most people (I think) stick to the tried and tested Frog system?

Can of worms, huh? New thread needed?

Offline nickwilliams

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2017, 10:43:14 am »
The last six minutes of part 1 brings back some memories!

Which dig / breakthrough is it, Nick?

The film was shot during the Illusion Pot dig. The sequence shows Toby going off in the opposite direction to the way to Dale Barn. So far as I know, that's the only time it's been pushed, but Bob's final comment 'no fixes or fiddles' is true. This was done about the time that high definition video cameras small enough to hold in one hand became available and one of the Cutting Edge producers came with us one Thursday with one, knowing that we had a lead to push that evening.
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Offline Hasbeen caver

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2017, 01:52:17 pm »
Thanks Nick

I think you could tell from the way Bob and Toby spoke that this was for real.

Great stuff...!

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2017, 02:47:36 pm »
Kenilworth:
Quote
Difficulty on rope is one of the most common and persistent causes of rescue incidents.
in the USA.

This does not seem to be the case in Britain, where there are relatively few 'SRT rescues'.

This is, of course, pure speculation, but I wonder if the reason for this might lie in the following. I get the impression that in the States there are any number of disparate groups whose members use equally disparate techniques for getting down and up pitches, whereas in Britain the 'caving community' (for want of a better phrase) is somewhat more homogeneous, and most people (I think) stick to the tried and tested Frog system?

Can of worms, huh? New thread needed?

There is some truth to this. Of course, slips and falls are the number one cause of rescue, but they are a little less predicatable and preventable than srt problems, so that will probably always be the case.

US cavers use a huge variety of vertical techniques. Since that is the case, no one system is exhaustively taught on a wide scale. Frog is the most common, but the existence of many large free hangs makes other methods attractive too. I do not believe that difficulty on rope is more common here because other methods are worse than frogging, but because cavers have failed to adequately learn how to overcome problems ot use their chosen technique in a difficult situation. The complexity of some systems adds to the responsibility of the user to learn them well. So while I, for example, use the Frog, and Texas, prusiks and jugging, I have avoided ropewalking since I do not want to devote the time and gear to learning it and implementing it properly.

Offline Simon Wilson

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2017, 09:21:28 pm »
Of course, slips and falls are the number one cause of rescue, ...

***** are you certain about it this time?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 11:39:24 am by Pegasus, Reason: ***** insulting name deleted »

Offline Kenilworth

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2017, 09:30:59 pm »
Of course, slips and falls are the number one cause of rescue, ...

****** are you certain about it this time?
Pardon?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 11:40:01 am by Pegasus »

Offline Pegasus

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Re: "Responsibility" for self help / rescue
« Reply #90 on: November 19, 2017, 11:42:03 am »
Administrator Comment name calling will not be tolerated. Don't do it, thank you