Very philosophical, Kenilworth, and I can't help but agree with you. But Keris82 was primarily asking something else (albeit expressing concern about a dying sport): our experience of interactions with other clubs and groups than our own. And as in all walks of life, experience will depend entirely on which groups you interact with.
But there does appear to be an element of 'entitlement' creeping in to the access attitude here. Which is understandable on CRoW areas, but misplaced on private land....
as an update. Keris hope you have a great trip on saturday to the cave you were after a leader for...and also caving with members from 2 other clubs on the tripenjoy
It's not 'the sport' so much as the community that people are worried about. Our huts, our events, our organisations that help cavers achieve so much more than having to reinvent the wheel. So the 'young people these days want everything for free', 'is nonsense from boomers who had so much given to them anyway.I think we're in a good situation, but there are quite a few clubs that still keep to themselves. If you help run a club and want to know how to broaden your intake and be more approachable, I (and other members of BCA Youth and Development) are more than happy to help so please do get in touch.
Perhaps you are in a good position to help me understand what is being threatened. Let me say plainly what appears true to me:
Quote from: Kenilworth on April 05, 2019, 09:22:22 pmPerhaps you are in a good position to help me understand what is being threatened. Let me say plainly what appears true to me:Put simply: 1) Access is controversial, a lot of older cavers in times of empire building put these Draconian controls to restrict others exploration of a system to ensure that they'd get the glory and relish in the selfish solitude that features so often in your soliloquies to narcissism. Perhaps this quote will underline my contempt for trope against the 'feckless youth'. I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on the frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was a boy, we were taught to be discrete and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise and impatient of restraint. Hesiod 8th century BC2. It doesn't boil down to selfishness, it boils down to wanting to protect their community. They express concern and actually try and change things because they want others to experience the joy they had.
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community";
Real communities involve careful memory, respect, interdependence, restraint. Caving, both in theory and in fact, requires none of the above. Communities are more than a common interest, more than a club. When they are broken, the homeless parts become a diminished record of what was lost.
The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.
Often when cavers are asked "Why do you go caving?" besides the expected answers "To see the beauties underground", "To maybe find cave passage no one has seen before", "the physical challenge", etc., etc., usually they include "the companionship of others", "the shared experience", "talking about the trip with your pals in the pub afterwards". For most cavers, caving is a shared experience whether an official Club or just a loose group who cave (or maybe even used to go caving) together.And this is what they are trying to preserve as well as the caves themselves.
Quote from: Cap'n Chris on April 06, 2019, 07:42:55 amThe villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.This very site is evidence you're wrong.
The villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.
and we believe that that caving/exploring needs to move forwards into the modern era
Quote from: NewStuff on April 06, 2019, 02:00:43 pmQuote from: Cap'n Chris on April 06, 2019, 07:42:55 amThe villain of the peace is the opening posit that includes the misconception "caving community"; there are vibrant, yet isolated, pockets of caving. The belief in a community is a long-standing myth.This very site is evidence you're wrong. I'm 100% convinced this very site proves the case admirably.
Everyone else in the thread seems to think you're wrong.