Author Topic: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls  (Read 1564 times)

Offline yrammy

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Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« on: December 11, 2019, 09:24:25 am »
Does anyone know where this is. Its called the Kingdom of Lost Souls and is a photo taken by J.G. Clarke. I have seached for it and dawn a blank.

Thanks

Mary 

Offline mikem

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2019, 05:08:40 pm »
Presumably J.G.Clarke of North Midlands Group of BSA, that later became part of TSG? So possibly Peak Cavern...

Offline yrammy

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2019, 08:37:59 am »
yes  it is that J G Clarke. But I cant find a mention of the sites anyway.
Mary

Offline bograt

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2019, 09:48:41 am »
Those helectites remind me of parts of Carlswark "new" series I remember from back in the '60's.
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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2019, 11:17:37 am »
I've seen a few helectites in the entrance area of Peak Cavern (Krypton Series), but they're not as extensive as those pictured - I don't think I've ever seen any as complex as that in Peak. If it's pre-1949 then it would only be in the sections up to Mucky Ducks, and I can't think of anywhere - unless it's up one of the other avens in the Vestibule that I've not been up.

Offline yrammy

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2020, 08:58:25 am »
The latest information I have is that it is in GB cave. Can any Mendip cavers here corroborate this please? 

Offline AR

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2020, 09:27:29 am »
The only place I can think of in the Peak with a lot of helictites is the end of Blackwell Dale Cave but that wasn't dug into until the 1960s, so maybe this is somewhere in Wales or Mendip? I suppose the other way to find out would be to trawl through the BSA log books for reports from J.G. Clarke but that wouldn't be a quick job...
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Offline yrammy

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2020, 09:35:54 am »
We are looking through BSA journals .... bit by bit.

Offline mikem

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2020, 09:50:43 am »
They don't look like any of the helictites I've seen in GB.

Online PeteHall

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2020, 10:14:50 am »
Somewhere in Devil's elbow perhaps? There are some pretty bits up there, though I can't say I recognise the specific helictites. I'll take a look when we're allowed back in...
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Offline Jenny P

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2020, 05:06:47 pm »
If it's not Peak Cavern but is Derbyshire, is there any possibility it could be somewhere in Giants?  There were some very pretty bits in odd corners above the main stream both upstream and downstream of the old Pillar Crawl and before you reached Garlands.

If it's GB, so on Mendip, then the finely decorated chambers reached by climbing the ladder at the end of the streamway weren't found till quite late on were they?  I was there before the "Great Flood" of 1968, probably in 1966 or '67, but don't recall seeing anything like this and had the impression then that the new chambers hasd been found relatively recently.

Online pwhole

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2020, 11:18:36 pm »
The last trip I did was in Giants above Base Camp Chamber, but I don't remember seeing anything as complex as that - though there are some very interesting mineral features up there, like galena in the walls and in pieces on the floor. I'm no Giants expert though. The print does look similar to others taken in Giants Upper Series about the same  time though.

Offline langcliffe

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2020, 11:43:16 pm »
The print does look similar to others taken in Giants Upper Series about the same  time though.

According to Harry Long, Clarke produced a number of sets of photos/cards as a fund-raiser for the BSA, and I believe this to be from one of those sets. That implies the print was later, but the photograph may well have been taken during his exploration days.

There are similar style prints in the still-being-developed archive of his photos.

Offline Ed W

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2020, 09:41:37 pm »
I am not sure why, but the photo reminds me of what I know as the "Helictite Grotto"  in GB.  This lies on the wall at the top of the descent down to the base of the fixed ladder on the Devil's Elbow route.  The grotto is now well trashed, just the sad stumps of helictites remain.  I would pop in and take a photo to compare, but that will have to wait till lockdown ends.

Offline Andy Farrant

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2020, 09:16:53 am »
It does look like GB, and the photo suggests the limestone is dipping, which would favour Mendip as opposed to the Peak.

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2020, 09:46:29 am »
The picture below is on page 82 of Mendip The Complete Caves and a View of the Hills, by Barrington and Stanton 3rd Edition 1977.  It's of GB cave and the top image is the 'First Helictite Grotto in 1940' (I think near Devil's Elbow) and the second one the same place at the present day (well the 1970s).  Of course angles are different, but there seems to be a few possible similarities in the rock and formations.


Offline mikem

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2020, 03:49:27 pm »
The previous photo was taken between where the crawl goes off towards the Gorge & the base of the ladder which goes up to Devil's Elbow. There used to be another helictite grotto at the top of the ladder (pic by John Tucker from MCRA Archive):



The 1972 edition of same book has this pic from bit that wasn't found until 1960s (as noted by Jenny) but it does look similar):



& another by Brian Prewer (from MCRA):



(Not quite sure which) Helictite Grotto, by K Wills 1985 (MCRA):



Second Helictite Chamber by Sidcot School pupil in 1946 (MCRA) - presumably the Upper Grotto - looks most likely?:

« Last Edit: June 11, 2020, 04:10:04 pm by mikem »

Offline yrammy

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2020, 09:10:13 am »
We now know that the negative of the photo is in an envelope which states Kingdom of Lost Souls in GB cave. So we are 99% certain is was taken in GB. Sadly those lost souls may indeed by lost forever.

Thanks everyone who has contribute to this thread. It was very much appreciated.

Mary 

Offline mikem

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2020, 11:47:02 am »
The UBSS report for 1944 includes better photos of the first grotto, which is described as the most fantastic display of helictites (name does seem more appropriate now than it was then):
http://www.ubss.org.uk/resources/proceedings/vol5/UBSS_Proc_5_2_104-113.pdf

Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2020, 12:22:21 pm »
Bit of a long shot. Is it just a single negative or is there a strip of them?  If several maybe they sort of documented the cave trip and so could be used to narrow down where it could have been taken?

Offline mikem

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2020, 11:30:06 am »
Found it (between the crawl towards the Gorge & foot of Devil's Elbow ladder - the two stalagmite at bottom are still recognisable):

« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 11:54:57 am by mikem »

Offline Fulk

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2020, 11:44:07 am »
Well mikem, you've convince me.  :thumbsup:

Online PeteHall

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2020, 11:58:23 am »
Good effort Mike. How long did you spend looking for that?  :o
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Offline mikem

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2020, 12:04:16 pm »
It was the first bit we looked at (I did take a copy of original with me). That grotto isn't very big.

Offline yrammy

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Re: Real Wezzit Kingdom of Lost Souls
« Reply #24 on: Today at 03:11:50 pm »
WOW thanks so much for sorting this one out. It is lovely to solve a mystery!

Mary

 

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