Author Topic: Underground in Furness  (Read 6384 times)

Offline Graham Proudlove

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Underground in Furness
« on: February 19, 2015, 08:50:30 pm »
Please can someone let me know how many editions of Underground in Furness by Eric Holland there were and their publication dates.

Thanks,,,,,,,,,,,,Graham

Offline Allan

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 09:18:48 pm »
1st Edition 1960
2nd Edition 1967
I don't know of any others.

Cheers
Allan

Offline martinr

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 09:51:44 pm »
 Holland, E. G. (1960).
Underground in Furness: A Guide to the Geology, Mines, Potholes and Caves.
The Dalesman Publishing Company, Clapham, Via. Lancaster.71 pp., 6 maps

Holland, E. G. (1967).
Underground in Furness, South Westmorland and North Lancashire: Guide to the Geology, Mines, Caves and Potholes
. Dalesman PublishingCompany, Ltd., Clapham, via. Lancaster. 110 pp., 5 maps.

Offline martinr

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 09:55:15 pm »
Quote from: FOR THE RECORD: ‘UNDERGROUND IN FURNESS’.Max Moseley May 2011

The two so-called ‘editions’ of Underground in Furness (Holland 1960, 1967) -referred to herein as UF1 and UF2 - are, bibliographically, rather an odd couple. Incontent the ‘second edition’ (UF2) is not really that all. It is much more like thesecond volume of a two volume work. One often needs both books when exploringthe area.


Offline Topimo

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 12:10:05 pm »
When I saw a copy of this at Hidden Earth last year I snapped it up! It's the blue one, I think that's the 'second edition'. Does anyone have the other for sale?

Anybody poked around the area?

Offline And

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2015, 09:13:57 pm »
I have the second edition. Mine has a red and black cover.

I'd like to check the area out some time!

Offline andys

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2015, 11:05:33 am »
Anybody poked around the area?

I've poked around the area on numerous occasions. But then the wife found out and now I'm only allowed to poke around at home.  :(
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Offline rhychydwr1

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Offline grahams

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2015, 04:46:21 pm »
Anybody poked around the area?

I've poked around the area on numerous occasions. But then the wife found out and now I'm only allowed to poke around at home.  :(

It's a common problem.

There's a sizeable resurgence of gin clear water at the bottom of the dry valley below Allithwaite at Bing map ref. 54.177352, -2.943323. There are two springs a few feet apart, one in an area of garden on the opposite side of the track to a new house and the other culverted beneath the house. Unfortunately, the chance of the owners of the land allowing hairy-arsed cavers to poke around with crowbars is slim. It's a pity because a considerable amount of Cumbria's finest reaches daylight here.
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Offline Topimo

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2015, 09:05:04 pm »
For those with an interest in the region:

The BCRA are doing a field meeting on the 25th of April, "Exploring the Limestone Landscapes of Whitbarrow, Southern Lakeland".
Facebook event link: https://www.facebook.com/events/984529998243241/

If anyone happens to be driving from Sheffield-way, would a non-driving student be able to cadge a lift?  :halo:

Graham, did you manage to get the information you need?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2015, 03:34:28 pm »
Graham - what's the O.S. Grid ref? (They didn't have Bing when I went to school!)


Offline Graham Proudlove

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2015, 03:36:20 pm »
Yes, I now have what I needed, thanks for your interest. I got the 2nd ed. of UIF from the US.

Graham Proudlove

Offline grahams

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 06:32:45 pm »
Graham - what's the O.S. Grid ref? (They didn't have Bing when I went to school!)

www.gridreferencefinder.com indicates the grid ref. SD 38521 76141 for the location. I hope this is accurate - the grid ref. finder site only displays a low quality road map. I couldn't see any open cave at the site and mentioned it in this forum only in case anyone is interested in the hydrology of the area.

BTW, no progress at Picklefoot but I'm still trying.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2015, 09:33:06 pm »
Grand - keep all irons in the fire, eh?


Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2015, 12:49:16 am »
With this kind of stuff, out of print, not out of copyright but of considerable general interest, is there any way of getting it available apart from the occasional £32 EBay  offering ?

Offline andys

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2015, 06:54:12 am »
With this kind of stuff, out of print, not out of copyright but of considerable general interest, is there any way of getting it available apart from the occasional £32 EBay  offering ?

Whilst I fully agree that UIF is of historical interest, the area covered by those volumes is included in Northern Caves, vol 3. So details of most of the sites, together with new sites located or further explored since its publication, are somewhat more accessible than in just those volumes. Though of course NC3 is not always easy to get hold of either.  :)
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Offline grahams

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2015, 09:37:21 am »
With this kind of stuff, out of print, not out of copyright but of considerable general interest, is there any way of getting it available apart from the occasional £32 EBay  offering ?

The BCRA or CaveMaps sites would be the obvious places for a scanned copy. Copyright lasts for 70 years after the writer's death but it might be possible to arrange something with the publishers?

I've just ordered a copy of UIF from Amazon for the usual £30 as I'm struggling to find the known caves in the jungles around here and there's little useful info on tinternet.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2015, 09:49:39 am »
Unless copyright was specifically signed over to the publishers (unusual - but perhaps worth asking?) copyright will almost certainly have remained with Eric Holland. I believe Eric passed away a number of years ago, so the copyright would have been regarded as part of his estate and so whoever holds copyright now will depend on who his beneficiaries were. That means asking family. In practice his family probably won't be especially interested in this copyright issue and identifying the person who has it may be difficult.

From time to time I've bumped into cavers who told me they knew Eric, so it's just possible that someone in the caving community may know members of his family. If anyone is seriously interested in pursuing this then a request for contacts via here may bring results? (But this is the sort of thing which is perhaps better done properly or not at all, so it's worth thinking carefully before proceeding.)

My understanding is that UIF contains information which the Northern Caves editors probably wouldn't include in full in the new Northern Caves guide. So perhaps the interest is more than merely historical (as suggested above) and maybe there is a good case for making these two excellent little books more generally available once again.

Offline Graham Proudlove

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2015, 02:39:17 pm »
The second edition is quite explicit regarding copyright, it says "little c in a circle" Eric G. Holland 1960, 1967.

But, see the post near the beginning of this thread about an article by Max Moseley which suggests that some of the content of the second edition may actually have come from Peter Ashmead and/or others. The same article also says that the two "editions" are not really what we have as both are actually required if working in the area. I have not seen the 1960 edition so haven't cross checked them though the 1967 does have an index for both.

Sam and I discussed UIF in light of the fast progressing NC3 because I though that the previous NC3 may have missed out quite a lot of Furness caves. But after a check we think only one was missed. I need to do a little more work on this before I'm completely certain we have not missed more than one, and this recent traffic has made me get the books off the shelf and start a check.

Offline peterk

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2015, 03:18:29 pm »

Offline graham

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2015, 03:30:14 pm »
This particular copyright issue is one that I have discussed a number of times in a number of different contexts. I have, certainly, uploaded possibly still copyright material to the web (though my name is not Sergey Brin, or even Larry Page)and in cases such as this would have little compunction in doing so.

It is clear that the books are long out of print and similarly clear that they are not going to be republished. Thus the copyright as such is of very little, if any, monetary value indeed. Indeed much of the material has already been published elsewhere, in NC, and nobody got upset. It is is a fair bit, therefore, that even if the current copyright holder could be found, they would not have a problem. If they did, then the remedy is simple, you apologise and take the material down again. If they threatened to sue, then politely ask them what their financial losses have been. I'll be surprised if they amount to anything at all, how could they?

I have a scan of one book that we have not treated in this way* as there is someone who is claiming to hold the copyright. We don't believe them as there would, most certainly, be a market for a reprint and they have not produced one, but they are rather hard-line in their claims and we don't feel strongly enough about it to wish to end up in court.

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Offline grahams

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2015, 11:17:04 am »
The Max Moseley article in full is at https://www.academia.edu/1687143/For_the_record_Underground_in_Furness

Thanks for the link. My copy of UiF2 arrived this morning but I've only had a chance for a quick skim so far. It seems to me on reading the book, though without any detailed knowledge, that Holland was treated a little harshly by his club. All he appears to have done is to collect and collate the information provided by his contemporaries in a similar manner to Norman Thornber - the format and style of PU and UiF2 are virtually identical, I would guess at the behest of Dalesman Publishing.

Loved the ref. to Warton Paint Mines in the link. It reminded me of Sabden Treacle Mines.
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Offline Monty_Stubble

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2021, 09:57:20 am »
Before you get too enthusiastic of Eric, who I knew very well, you should read Max Moseley's piece called "FOR THE RECORD: ‘UNDERGROUND IN FURNESS’" which is available on Academia.

Copyright for Eric's work will, at the moment be with his wife, Maureen and then at some point in the long distance with his daughter who lives in the US.


Offline psychocrawler

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2021, 12:10:49 am »
Both editions turn up fairly regularly on Abebooks from UK sellers but not every week or  ‘on demand’ like Amazon. A bit like the Martel classics (be prepared to go ‘.fr’ for these).

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2021, 08:25:34 am »
The Max Moseley article in full is at https://www.academia.edu/1687143/For_the_record_Underground_in_Furness

Thanks; that's interesting. It's a real shame we don't have Eric's version, to give his side of the story though.

Online mikem

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2021, 09:58:53 am »
Some of his collection is available:
https://www.nwemail.co.uk/features/nostalgia/16451949.access-agreed-to-cumbrian-mine-history-plans/

The paint mines however are real, being red ochre (although the surrounding woods are now used for paintball)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 10:15:30 am by mikem »

Online RobinGriffiths

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Re: Underground in Furness
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2021, 11:04:33 am »
Just picked the 1967 edition up for £18 off Amazon. Wonder if it references the jam butty mines - but I guess they were quite a bit further south.

 

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