Author Topic: Boosterism  (Read 1797 times)

Offline Fjell

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Boosterism
« on: November 21, 2021, 09:44:05 am »
I walked down and got my booster yesterday from our ever-keen GP. Can’t fault them for being on the job over the last year or so, first-class effort on all fronts.

But it seems the message isn’t out there on jabs. Here’s one chap from ICU who should be put on TV in the middle of Strictly:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin

Online 2xw

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2021, 10:53:14 am »
The walks in are pretty good, I was in and out within 25 minutes the other day (including my 15 minute wait).

I'm interested in the logistics with the upcoming flu, Lyme, HIV and cancer vaccines tho, I wonder if they can give them all at once!

Offline Laurie

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2021, 11:39:44 am »
My doctor's only treating 80 years plus at the moment due to lack of supplies. Reckons it'll be after Christmas before he gets round to me. I'm 78. I've booked elsewhere to have mine next week.
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Offline alanw

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2021, 12:12:11 pm »
I walked down to the city centre two days ago. Four "pods" and a continuous stream of people being vaccinated. No significant delays, just 5 minutes sitting waiting for the timer to ring afterwards. Slight tenderness in my arm, but nothing that stopped me going digging yesterday.

Re the Guardian article, I wonder what would go on the death certificate if one of the unvaccinated died before making it to hospital and seeing a doctor and there had to be an inquest? Misadventure? From the Wikipedia article: "occurred due to a risk that was taken voluntarily".

Offline Eds

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2021, 12:40:32 pm »
Ingleton community center are quick and efficient. I had my booster there the other week then went for a walk onto lead mines moss (Ingleborough) afterwards.
They are doing Sundays for the next few weeks.

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2021, 03:52:40 pm »
Tim and I are booked in for early Dec, when our 6 months since 2nd jab are up. Laurie, you could gladly have my appt if you live near Ingleton xx

Thank you NHS, thank you clever scientists for the vaccines, top job! 

Offline Speleofish

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2021, 04:38:24 pm »
It's worth making repeated visits to the NHS website - there are some big vaccine centres which run most days, though you may have to travel. However, there seem to be a number of pop-up centres with limited capacity which can appear and disappear quickly. My wife and I went online 30 minutes apart and she found several more places than I did.

The important thing is that the booster programme is run by NHS England and is NOT run by GPs.

I'd re-iterate the comments made in the Guardian article. In most parts of the UK, severe Covid is now mainly a disease of the unvaccinated (though there are some unfortunate people who have poor immunity or who are extremely frail who remain vulnerable)

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2021, 04:39:49 pm »
Quote
But it seems the message isn’t out there on jabs. Here’s one chap from ICU who should be put on TV in the middle of Strictly

As I pointed out in June when my appendix burst, there's a good chance that I wouldn't have got seen in time had there been a Covid peak at the time, and I would likely have died in an ambulance or on a trolley, waiting to be seen by an A&E team - as people are dying now of other ailments than Covid.

Last week I had a brief episode which I thought may be a complication, with massive pain on the same site, and 111 advised me to go go to A&E for a check-up - at 8.30am. I was meant to be working at 8, but my colleague told me hospital was much more important, and drove me straight there, and then waited in the van outside in case we could get back to work. I was processed immediately, but was then put in a queue to be seen, and by 10.30 I had to send my mate home, as he'd now waited two hours - for which I was immensely grateful. However, I didn't actually get to leave until 13.00, with an all-clear, and a diagnosis of a probable twisted intestine causing a massive back-up.

But from the time I arrived, there must have been a hundred more people turned up with various ailments (not including obesity, which was more than 50% of the attendees), and it was non-stop chaos - the brief chats I had with the team convinced me that that they were running on almost empty, and by the time I left I would have hugged them all if I could have, I was so grateful that they saw me at all.

But this is the point that I keep trying to make - it's not necessarily the Covid that's the problem, it's the impact Covid has on everything else. They can factor in car crashes, pub assaults, lightning strikes and, yes, burst appendices, but only if they're not clogged up dealing with unvaccinated chumps. I have a family relative who can't be jabbed due to auto-immune issues, and I'd really like to meet up with them soon due to their parent recently dying, and the only way I can do that is by not getting infected myself in the interim. Our club recently had a social event where a large number of visitors caught 'the cold' that's currently going around, despite me opening every bloody door in the building every ten minutes due to the numbers present. Good job I did at least that, it seems, or there would probably have been even more.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2021, 05:28:05 pm »
I find all of the faux outrage at the various health service professionals who have just lost their job because they wouldn't have the vaccine.
I didn't see anybody just asking the bloody idiots why they couldn't just go and get it, like the rest of us who have a functional brain.

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Offline Fjell

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2021, 06:22:34 pm »
It's worth making repeated visits to the NHS website - there are some big vaccine centres which run most days, though you may have to travel. However, there seem to be a number of pop-up centres with limited capacity which can appear and disappear quickly. My wife and I went online 30 minutes apart and she found several more places than I did.

The important thing is that the booster programme is run by NHS England and is NOT run by GPs.

I'd re-iterate the comments made in the Guardian article. In most parts of the UK, severe Covid is now mainly a disease of the unvaccinated (though there are some unfortunate people who have poor immunity or who are extremely frail who remain vulnerable)

Obviously the NHS supply it, but our GP practice rings up every person registered with them when they are due based on the tiers etc. Last Dec they had the over 80’s done by the end of the month. I get the feeling this is not universal.


Offline ZombieCake

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2021, 07:40:58 pm »
No-one seems to complain about the flu jab that happens each year.  As the covid vaccines are now available I don't understand why people should complain about them. If your job says you need a vaccine, then you probably really need one. If you don't want a vaccine get a different job.
Of course you get conspiracy theories, and while they can be rather entertaining and a laugh to talk about, are largely complete fiction. It's very sad when people are daft enough, or brain washed enough, take them seriously, especially when such recklessness costs lives.
As an example, near where I live is a household of what I guess can be described as very single minded religious nut jobs. They have all sorts of rubbish plastered outside their house, including anti-covid conspiracy rants.  Of course people can have an opinion and view (and I'm all for free speech), however, some views can be dangerous if people are persuaded to avoid a safe course of action due to unfounded dogma.

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2021, 07:45:19 pm »
No-one seems to complain about the multiple jabs required to go on a holiday in many parts of the world either. I'd love to hear the argument for malaria and typhoid jabs being a corporate conspiracy.

Offline Fulk

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2021, 11:12:50 pm »
I wonder if the anti-vaxxers ever ask themselves why polio and smallpox are no longer threats to us in this part of the world.

Offline HardenClimber3

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2021, 08:56:59 am »
Fulk,
This sort of thing.....

Starting from a position of vaccine scepticism....
Smallpox was in decline in the 18th C before vaccination was imposed.
Smallpox wasn't actually very serious (indeed quite trivial) and most of the problems were due to medical interventions.
Jenner was a dreadful researcher / human / doctor.
The rise in smallpox at the end of 18thC was due to medical interventions which were compounded by the vaccine increasing susceptibility to smallpox.

I'll email you a photo of an example newspaper. (I'm not going to give them the fuel of publicity) I was really quite shocked to find this sort of discussion about smallpox, and makes me wonder how addressable much of this is.
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Offline PeteHall

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2021, 09:44:53 am »
Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable that we are handing out boosters to healthy over 40's here who are at very low risk, while a huge proportion of the at-risk global population is still unvaccinated?

For example, see: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

If we actually want to end this thing, surely we're going to need to curb it across the globe, not just at home, otherwise we'll be constantly fighting off new variants that have grown elsewhere. If vaccines are the only ticket out of the current situation, as is generally accepted, it's not just benevolence to hand out vaccines to poorer countries, it's surely in our own best interests too.

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2021, 09:49:17 am »
Fulk,
This sort of thing.....

Starting from a position of vaccine scepticism....
Smallpox was in decline in the 18th C before vaccination was imposed.
Smallpox wasn't actually very serious (indeed quite trivial) and most of the problems were due to medical interventions.
Jenner was a dreadful researcher / human / doctor.
The rise in smallpox at the end of 18thC was due to medical interventions which were compounded by the vaccine increasing susceptibility to smallpox.

I'll email you a photo of an example newspaper. (I'm not going to give them the fuel of publicity) I was really quite shocked to find this sort of discussion about smallpox, and makes me wonder how addressable much of this is.
I presume you are well qualified to make these statements, They don't quite tally with the lecture my cousin gave recently on Zoom. He has researched pox viruses all his life and is head of pathology at Cambridge so  I would trust him implicitly.

Offline Chocolate fireguard

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2021, 10:02:49 am »
One of us must have completely misinterpreted HC3's message.

Offline HardenClimber3

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2021, 10:14:49 am »
Fulk,
This sort of thing.....

Starting from a position of vaccine scepticism....
Smallpox was in decline in the 18th C before vaccination was imposed.
Smallpox wasn't actually very serious (indeed quite trivial) and most of the problems were due to medical interventions.
Jenner was a dreadful researcher / human / doctor.
The rise in smallpox at the end of 18thC was due to medical interventions which were compounded by the vaccine increasing susceptibility to smallpox.

I'll email you a photo of an example newspaper. (I'm not going to give them the fuel of publicity) I was really quite shocked to find this sort of discussion about smallpox, and makes me wonder how addressable much of this is.
I presume you are well qualified to make these statements, They don't quite tally with the lecture my cousin gave recently on Zoom. He has researched pox viruses all his life and is head of pathology at Cambridge so  I would trust him implicitly.

I don't quite understand your comment...
Are you questioning my scepticism of the bizarre claims quoted? (I have a 35 years experience in Infectious Diseases work).

To be very clear I disagree strongly with the idea that smallpox was a mild illness and that vaccine increased susceptibility. I was giving an example of the extreme stance adopted by some individuals (in response to Fulk's query about how anti-vaxxers rationalised smallpox vaccination etc).  (You don't state what stance your cousin takes in either direction - something that always alarms me). 
Paul McWhinney

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2021, 11:16:30 am »
It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2021, 11:36:37 am »
Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable that we are handing out boosters to healthy over 40's here who are at very low risk, while a huge proportion of the at-risk global population is still unvaccinated?

Yes, I too am very uncomfortable handing out boosters at all here, to be honest, especially if it means poorer countries having their supplies delayed, and I'm quite proactive in terms of managing the risk to me and people I'm around. We've already got more benefits than most other countries, and a double-jab and sensible behaviour should mitigate almost all the risk. We could have pretty much eradicated it twice by now, but we haven't, for all the obvious reasons. I think we're protected enough, and is up to us to manage the social detail ourselves now, and we should be exporting vast volumes of vaccines to poorer countries.

African countries are critical, both for world health, and the future economies, not least as they hold many of the resources the rich countries will need over the next ten years. If we're planning to build mine-roads over corpses we're gonna need to be tough, and will have to keep taking the anti-depressants to deal with our ever-increasing selfishness. Of course if all the local mining employees have died from Covid, it's a moot point anyway. If we can't get British strawberry-pickers, can we get them to mine Coltan in the Congo? At £400 a day?

Offline royfellows

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2021, 01:37:07 pm »
It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

I agree, I was wondering about it and read it several times. The clue was in the last line.
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Offline ttxela2

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2021, 01:57:36 pm »
Is anyone else slightly uncomfortable that we are handing out boosters to healthy over 40's here who are at very low risk, while a huge proportion of the at-risk global population is still unvaccinated?



Yes, but I still had mine......

I'm 49 and had a message come through that I was at 'increased risk' I don't really regard my health problems, whilst they cause me some inconvenience, as being particularly serious but I guess someone does.

I can't think of anything else that requires such frequent vaccination, 3 in the space of a year so far, can anyone explain in simple terms why the effectiveness wanes so quickly? I guess in terms of poorer countries this will also be an issue, I've heard statistics of 40% effectiveness lost in a few months?

Offline paul

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2021, 02:02:59 pm »
I can't think of anything else that requires such frequent vaccination, 3 in the space of a year so far, can anyone explain in simple terms why the effectiveness wanes so quickly? I guess in terms of poorer countries this will also be an issue, I've heard statistics of 40% effectiveness lost in a few months?

Have a look at this BMJ article: https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1605
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2021, 03:22:21 pm »
Regarding the frequency of immunisation  you only have to look at the fact that annual flu vaccinations are required and the fact that there is no vaccine for the common cold as there are so many variants. There are also many viral infections we contract that we are unaware of as they are so benign.




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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2021, 03:36:34 pm »
I contacted my local GP about getting a flu jab, and they said they're only doing over-65s at the moment - I told them I'd had a text from the NHS telling me to book an appointment with them and they told me to ignore it, and they'd contact me when they were ready! I did ask them if they were in the NHS, but they didn't seem to get the joke. I had one at the pharmacy next door last year, just on-the-hoof, so maybe I'll ask them again, but I'm pretty low-risk, living on my own I guess. I don't qualify for a booster until after Dec 14th, but even so, I'd rather give it to someone more deserving, but I guess it doesn't really work like that. I could be paired with little Abdul in Sudan, etc. Breakfast telly loves stuff like that.

Offline andrewmc

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2021, 05:59:05 pm »
I can't think of anything else that requires such frequent vaccination, 3 in the space of a year so far, can anyone explain in simple terms why the effectiveness wanes so quickly? I guess in terms of poorer countries this will also be an issue, I've heard statistics of 40% effectiveness lost in a few months?

Rabies vaccine is 3 doses, normally given over a minimum of 28 days.
Google suggests Tetanus vaccine is given (to unvaccinated adults) as three doses, two close together and one 6-12 months later. WHO guidelines are 6 doses total: three doses in early childhood, one booster aged 12-13 months, one aged 4-7 years and then one aged 9-15 years, plus adult boosters every 10 years.
I imagine there are others where you get many injections (e.g. pertussis?).

I think part of the reason is that we are aiming for very high levels of immunity.

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2021, 06:13:42 pm »
Wow - I had one tetanus jab at school (74-79), one in the early 90s and one three years ago when I broke a footbone (internally). The x-ray nurse insisted I have a booster when I told her about the early 90s one. But I had no idea six was recommended. I have spent most of my life covered in some sort of filth though, so I may just have a good immune system.

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2021, 06:21:23 pm »
I haven’t had a tetanus for 14 years at least !

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2021, 06:58:07 pm »
I wouldn't worry provide you had primary courses of tetanus and then a booster.  I looked into it many years and gave up having 10 yearly boosters and made the same recommendations to my patients. However, If you get a filth laden wound that needs treatment then you would probably get a booster then. And if you have never had a course of tetanus shots you are dicing with death!

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2021, 07:12:23 pm »
I contacted my local GP about getting a flu jab, and they said they're only doing over-65s at the moment - I told them I'd had a text from the NHS telling me to book an appointment with them and they told me to ignore it, and they'd contact me when they were ready! I did ask them if they were in the NHS, but they didn't seem to get the joke. I had one at the pharmacy next door last year, just on-the-hoof, so maybe I'll ask them again, but I'm pretty low-risk, living on my own I guess. I don't qualify for a booster until after Dec 14th, but even so, I'd rather give it to someone more deserving, but I guess it doesn't really work like that. I could be paired with little Abdul in Sudan, etc. Breakfast telly loves stuff like that.

So is that because there is a shortage of vaccine, a shortage of NHS funds to purchase it, or a shortage of staff capacity to give it?

I recently had my flu jab at Boots using a voucher that my company provided and encouraged me to use. I suspect the motive being at lease partially to protect the company against losses should lots of staff be off sick with the flu!

If there is a shortage of vaccine to protect truly vulnerable folk (rather than the profits of corporations) I now feel a little guilty......

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2021, 07:17:12 pm »
I can't think of anything else that requires such frequent vaccination, 3 in the space of a year so far, can anyone explain in simple terms why the effectiveness wanes so quickly? I guess in terms of poorer countries this will also be an issue, I've heard statistics of 40% effectiveness lost in a few months?

Rabies vaccine is 3 doses, normally given over a minimum of 28 days.
Google suggests Tetanus vaccine is given (to unvaccinated adults) as three doses, two close together and one 6-12 months later. WHO guidelines are 6 doses total: three doses in early childhood, one booster aged 12-13 months, one aged 4-7 years and then one aged 9-15 years, plus adult boosters every 10 years.
I imagine there are others where you get many injections (e.g. pertussis?).

I think part of the reason is that we are aiming for very high levels of immunity.

I'm not really querying the number of initial injections, I am used to that with various things for travel/work etc. However once the course is complete there is usually a bit longer before a booster is necessary, it's just a few months since my second vaccine but now a booster is required. How long until another booster is needed or is that it?

If we are to have one every few months the point about other poorer countries not getting their share is less likely to be quickly resolved?

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2021, 07:18:11 pm »
And if you have never had a course of tetanus shots you are dicing with death!

Blimey, I didn't realise it was so serious  :o

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2021, 07:28:24 pm »
Very serious lock jaw is  :'(

Offline Pegasus

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2021, 07:50:05 pm »
Very serious lock jaw is  :'(

Well I'm glad I've had my tetanus jabs - and so has my horse  ;D

Offline kay

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2021, 08:34:36 pm »
It would seem you are a victim of the way you presented your commen!. It looked as though you were making the statements. Best put them in quotes in future to avoid misunderstanding.

I agree, I was wondering about it and read it several times. The clue was in the last line.
Another clue in the first line, making it very clear he was answering Fulk's question about how anti-vaxxers cope with the history of smallpox. The trouble comes if you aren't reading the two posts one after the other.

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #35 on: November 26, 2021, 11:38:29 pm »
A useful follow-up on the discussion about the ethics of boosters vs. worldwide vaccination policy, from Gordon Brown:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/26/new-covid-variant-rich-countries-hoarding-vaccines

The result is that even now only 3% of people in low-income countries are fully vaccinated, while the figure exceeds 60% in both high-income countries and upper-middle-income countries. Every day, for every vaccine delivered as first vaccines in the poorest countries, six times as many doses are being administered as third and booster vaccines in the richest parts of the world. This vaccine inequality is the main reason why the WHO is predicting 200 million more cases on top of the 260 million so far. And after 5 million deaths to Covid, another 5 million are thought to be possible in the next year and more.

What’s most galling is that this policy failure is not because we are short of vaccines or manufacturing contracts to secure them. The problem is not now in production (2 billion doses of vaccine are being manufactured every month), but in the unfairness of distribution. The stranglehold exercised by the G20 richest countries is such that they have monopolised 89% of vaccines, and even now, 71% of future deliveries are scheduled for them. As a result, the global vaccine distribution agency, Covax, has been able to secure only two-thirds of the 2bn vaccines promised to poorer countries.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2021, 09:55:15 am »
The thing about that is that although it's almost certainly true, it alludes to a huge moral dilemma.

The vaccine was developed and paid for by the richer nations. And to be frank, when it comes to life and death, I want the vaccine first because I've paid* for it. Once I have had my jabs, then people who haven't paid for it can have theirs.

Or should I compromise my chances of survival for somebody else?  :-\

Chris.

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #37 on: November 27, 2021, 11:15:34 am »
I would argue that citizens of poorer countries haven't had much opportunity to support their societies to enable them to develop vaccine technology as they had no money, and we all know that can of worms. One comes out of the other. We're very lucky to live here in a stable environment, in comparative wealth, and with relatively easy ways to make a decent living, so 'paying for it' is kind of built-in - you can't choose not to pay for it, for example.

Also as we're seeing elsewhere, underfunding and underdevelopment just brings everything crashing down, and in the terms of a pandemic, poorer countries with low-budget or non-existent healthcare are far more likely to generate endless new mutations and variants, as we're seeing now. And they will come into the country and potentially wreak havoc with our vaccination programme, and our manifestly unfit population. Unlike most South Africans, who are younger and skinnier demographically, and more likely to survive long-term.

So yes, I think everyone should be considering compromising their chances of survival for somebody else, because the previous methods based on selfishness are clearly not working. It's an investment in our futures as much as theirs, especially if we all want (apparently) to do foreign travel as a lifestyle experience again. Doesn't have to be 100% compromised - what about just 90%? :)

Offline Fjell

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #38 on: November 27, 2021, 12:09:26 pm »
South Africa is not actually short of vaccine, but they have massive vaccine hesitancy which got out of hand when certain people were saying the AZ vaccine was bad for you.

India has vaccinated more people than Europe and North America combined, as has China by far. So people need to be a little careful about glib comparisons. Not that will stop people obviously.

Offline Boy Engineer

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #39 on: November 27, 2021, 12:40:22 pm »
And to be frank, when it comes to life and death, I want the vaccine first because I've paid* for it. Once I have had my jabs, then people who haven't paid for it can have theirs.


This is the most depressing thing I’ve read on here for a while. Not sure that I can say much in response (and suspect that PWHole will put it more succinctly). The accident of birth that has resulted in our enjoyment of all that Western Europe provides (in terms of civil society, life opportunities etc) shouldn’t be at the expense of others who haven’t had such luck, should it?

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #40 on: November 27, 2021, 01:26:29 pm »
India has vaccinated more people than Europe and North America combined, as has China by far. So people need to be a little careful about glib comparisons. Not that will stop people obviously.

These weren't the 'poorer' countries I had in mind - they're doing pretty well compared to many, and have gigantic populations and established industrial infrastructures. And yes, being born here is the most difficult part over and done with. Once you're in, you're laughing, relatively speaking. I think in many ways globalisation really is going to force the issue on us - sharing really is the only way.

Offline Fjell

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #41 on: November 27, 2021, 01:41:28 pm »
India’s vaccine (and generic medicine) capacity is orders of magnitude bigger than the UK’s. Our main contribution is doing R&D, which we have done and disseminated for free. It’s a fruitful combination.

It seems that Novavax is finally going to be approved. That will massively increase production of vaccine that be easily and cheaply distributed. A small amount will be made here, with the vast majority in India.

I think the UK scientific and medical research community has much to be proud of and def deserves a gong or two. As does the government for giving unlimited backing, regardless of their other eccentricities. It’s a model that needs to be replicated and not lost in the noise.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #42 on: November 27, 2021, 01:54:50 pm »
And to be frank, when it comes to life and death, I want the vaccine first because I've paid* for it. Once I have had my jabs, then people who haven't paid for it can have theirs.


This is the most depressing thing I’ve read on here for a while. Not sure that I can say much in response (and suspect that PWHole will put it more succinctly). The accident of birth that has resulted in our enjoyment of all that Western Europe provides (in terms of civil society, life opportunities etc) shouldn’t be at the expense of others who haven’t had such luck, should it?

I rather think that is the most honest thing, depressing or not. I am sure most people would look after no.1 if it was a matter of life and death. I am less sure how many people would admit to it.

And I am not disputing how fortunate we all are to even be able to be discussing it.

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Offline droid

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #43 on: November 27, 2021, 10:13:45 pm »
 Chris's comment above is the most honest thing I've read for a while.

And probably very true.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2021, 01:40:39 pm »
Yes, I agree entirely with Pwhole and yet I've happily taken both my vaccines and my booster. So Chris is also right.

Perhaps partly because I know if I wrote to the NHS asking them nicely to send my booster to a poorer country so someone could use it as a first vaccine that wouldn't actually happen.

It applies to many other situations unfolding around the world. I often watch the news and think FFS, why doesn't someone just do something, then I think well perhaps I could just quit my job and travel to far flung parts to help - but of course that's not really what's needed and I'd probably end up just using more resources best used in other ways - so perhaps I should donate my savings and sell my worldly goods to help - but not my house of course, I need somewhere to live and worked hard for that, not my motorhome either as I really enjoy our holidays. Oh and I'll need to keep my car to get to work - and I'm really quite fond of my motorbike, wouldn't want to see that go, come to think of it my savings are already allocated to that bathroom refit we're planning....

So I send my text message to donate a tenner and the world carries on pretty much as before...


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Re: Boosterism
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2021, 03:37:02 pm »
I hope no one sends my vaccine booster anywhere , they can save a 100 of them for my family before sending them abroad we need them , at this rate my kids will need them and my parents and so on . If I had money to donate I would happily give some to many charity”s , especially them poor donkeys walking up them steps all day I no what it’s like I have been Dinorwig many times !  :'(

 

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