Author Topic: Wood burners  (Read 5158 times)

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2021, 01:47:12 pm »
You do like a rant don't you Sam  ;D ;D ;D

 :thumbsup:

Are we allowed to say that the woodburner is much more efficient than an open fire?
Chris.

Yes, much.

Quote
And out of curiosity, are they more or less efficient than a gas or oil boiler?

Oil boiler ~ 90%
Mains Gas ~89%
Log burner ~65% (some manufacturers have claims about 80%, but always good to be skeptical) 
Open fire ~40%


Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #51 on: January 23, 2021, 02:15:12 pm »
What about bio - lpg

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #52 on: January 23, 2021, 08:31:24 pm »
"Bio LPG" is a contradiction of terms, unless you're talking about two separate things,.

LPG stands for Liquid Petroleum Gas.  Its essentially butane/propane, either straight from the ground, or as a byproduct of oil refraction.  In a modern boiler, its about 90% efficient.  Its a fossil fuel and not 'bio'.

(I think its slightly higher efficiency than Mains gas (90/91% vs 89%) , because I suspect its got a higher humidity content than Mains Gas, which means in a condensing boiler, the condensing technology of it squeezes a tad more energy out of it).  (but I could be wrong on that)

Bio gas, is methane, usually captured from digestion (composting).  I expect that in a condensing boiler, it'd be about 90% give or take.

If you want to take into account primary energy efficiency, i.e. the energy it takes to get it to the point of use, from digging it out the ground, we're into a whole different kettle of fish.

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #53 on: January 23, 2021, 08:35:56 pm »

Beechwood fires are bright and clear
If the logs are kept a year,
Chestnut’s only good they say,
If for logs ’tis laid away.

Make a fire of Elder tree,
Death within your house will be;
But ash new or ash old,
Is fit for a queen with crown of gold.

Birch and fir logs burn too fast
Blaze up bright and do not last,
it is by the Irish said
Hawthorn bakes the sweetest bread.
Elm wood burns like churchyard mould,
E’en the very flames are cold
But ash green or ash brown
Is fit for a queen with golden crown

Poplar gives a bitter smoke,
Fills your eyes and makes you choke,
Apple wood will scent your room
Pear wood smells like flowers in bloom

Oaken logs, if dry and old
keep away the winter’s cold
But ash wet or ash dry
a king shall warm his slippers by.

Offline mr conners

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2021, 09:13:22 pm »
MDF, if it is free
Chuck it on,
and warm you’ll be.
"Life is a thankless struggle"

Offline owd git

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #55 on: January 24, 2021, 09:27:54 am »
Hen racer? 2000 world hen racing champion( guess who has this years world champion hen!)

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #56 on: January 24, 2021, 09:49:01 am »

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2021, 10:45:46 am »

Yeah.. fair enough, Daft name though.  You'd have thought they'd want to drop the "petroleum" bit and distance themselves from the fossil fuel industry.

Its still going to be 90% odd efficient in a condensing boiler is its just Butane/Propane.

Problem is supply,  how much agricultural land are you going to give over, away from food production, to grow crops for biogas.

The topic probably needs a new split if we're going off on a 'renewables' tangent.

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2021, 10:52:35 am »
There probably importing the stuff which doesn't make it very green

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2021, 11:11:23 am »

Problem is supply,  how much agricultural land are you going to give over, away from food production, to grow crops for biogas.

And do they factor in all the Diesel burned by the farmer producing the crops...?

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Offline Ian Ball

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2021, 11:19:35 am »
I was under the impression oak was the king of wood burning fuel?

On my only visit to the club base of the Wessex, I was mightily impressed by their fire wood, fire doors ha!

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2021, 11:25:01 am »
That's 'primary' energy Chris, and is a whole other can of worms.  Not many fuels fare too well when you start scratching the surface of primary energy.  Even dirty coal has to be delivered in trucks.

Offline AR

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2021, 11:35:14 am »
I was under the impression oak was the king of wood burning fuel?

On my only visit to the club base of the Wessex, I was mightily impressed by their fire wood, fire doors ha!

No, ash has always been the best firewood - it's naturally low in moisture hence why it can be burned unseasoned, and burns even better when left for a while to completely dry.
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Offline Boy Engineer

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2021, 11:40:12 am »
Ash is also the only wood that isn’t changed by the combustion process.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2021, 11:51:17 am »
That's 'primary' energy Chris, and is a whole other can of worms.  Not many fuels fare too well when you start scratching the surface of primary energy.  Even dirty coal has to be delivered in trucks.

But surely if your ultimate aim is to save the planet, you do need to open that can of worms!

If the tractor is burning more kiloJoules in Diesel than you will get from the biomass being grown, I would argue that you have actually made the planet worse off.

So you have to include everything you can in your calculations.

Chris.
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Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2021, 12:05:17 pm »
That's 'primary' energy Chris, and is a whole other can of worms.  Not many fuels fare too well when you start scratching the surface of primary energy.  Even dirty coal has to be delivered in trucks.
But surely if your ultimate aim is to save the planet, you do need to open that can of worms!
If the tractor is burning more kiloJoules in Diesel than you will get from the biomass being grown, I would argue that you have actually made the planet worse off.
So you have to include everything you can in your calculations.
Chris.

I totally agree with you. Primary energy is the metric we should all be working with. (And the powers that be will most likely be introducing this in the next verision of the Part L building regs next year).

This topic was not about the pro's and cons various fossil fuel replacements, on a national or international scale.  Neither have I been advocating biogas, or biomass.  I personally don't buy logs.  I've relied, so far on windfalls etc, and our log burner is not our primary source of heat, its for occasional use, when having a cosy night in, in front of the telly, thus my 'primary energy use' involved is very low (I'll admit to using a petrol powered chainsaw to chop a lot of them though). 

But you seem to just be saying, in a flippant sort of way, sod it, lets start burning coal again, which I cant agree with.


Offline cavemanmike

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2021, 01:16:38 pm »
Like you Sam I've never bought a log in my life, I'm lucky enough to have a friend with a large woodlands which I help take out wind damage, on another note what are your thoughts on putting plastic pipes in the bottom of my horsemuck area to generate heat, I've seen stuff on utube which is making me think

Offline Roger W

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2021, 02:01:46 pm »
MDF, if it is free
Chuck it on,
and warm you’ll be.

Unfortunately it seems you are best avoiding this, and other processed wood products like plywood.  The glue in them won't do you or your flue any good.

Maybe we could say:

MDF is nasty stuff:
Glue resins choke your flue.
And if you have to breathe the smoke,
It's just as bad for you.
"That, of course, is the dangerous part about caves:  you don't know how far they go back, sometimes... or what is waiting for you inside."   JRR Tolkein: "The Hobbit"

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2021, 06:03:37 pm »
But you seem to just be saying, in a flippant sort of way, sod it, lets start burning coal again, which I cant agree with.

What I am saying is that we should not exclude burning coal on principle. If it is actually better for the planet overall, then we should do so.

Chris.
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Offline pwhole

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #69 on: January 24, 2021, 07:05:44 pm »
And it does look pretty cool too, in the right light, especially at fridge-size lumps. Not your nutty slack, this stuff ;)

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #70 on: January 24, 2021, 08:03:17 pm »
What I am saying is that we should not exclude burning coal on principle. If it is actually better for the planet overall, then we should do so.
Chris.

Is it not now well established that its not better for the planet  :-\

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #71 on: January 24, 2021, 09:18:06 pm »
Is it not now well established that its not better for the planet  :-\

I think all we have established is that coal burning is bad, and greener alternatives may be better or may be worse. We haven't taken a sufficiently holistic view to know!

Chris.
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Offline MarkS

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #72 on: January 24, 2021, 09:54:20 pm »
I think all we have established is that coal burning is bad, and greener alternatives may be better or may be worse. We haven't taken a sufficiently holistic view to know!


Nature Energy, 2, 939–945 (2017)

Offline SamT

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #73 on: January 24, 2021, 09:56:17 pm »

We haven't taken a sufficiently holistic view to know!


Haven't we??

Are you talking 'we' as in the contributors to this thread on ukc, or are you talking 'we' as in the human race.

Offline pwhole

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Re: Wood burners
« Reply #74 on: December 17, 2021, 11:05:15 am »
Just a quick update to this thread - not looking good for wood burners! I had to divert around tree-loving Rustlings Road yesterday, so plentiful was the rustic fragrant haze :)

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/dec/17/wood-burners-urban-air-pollution-cancer-risk-study

Research published in the last year has shown wood burning in homes is the single biggest source of small particle air pollution in the UK, producing three times more than road traffic, despite just 8% of the population using wood burners.

 

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