:cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss::cuss:

On recent trips into giants I was surprised to see dumps of carbide that looked fairly fresh. Now I've always assumed that these dumps were placed there in 1952 when cavers used carbide and didn't know better.

Its become apparent that cavers still do use carbide, I saw at least 3 people with sets on Saturday and that wasn't including mine.

Its also apparent that people still bloody well dump it.

Not under a rock, not in a stream or down a hole. but in nice little pile slab bang in the middle of a bank of sediment

Do they think it looks nice and neat, that people will admire their work, "oh look Jim, over there - a nice pile of spent carbide, oh how it enhances the caves appearance. How I wish I had my camera”

Does it magically evaporate.

The only time I've been in a cave long enough with carbide that it gets to the stage that I needed do dump it, it was in a fast flowing stream. Now this is probably not ideal and will have some sort of effect on the environment (possibly beyond the resurgence).

But come on who actually still dumps it – If your listening – you can get natty little bags now, specifically for the job.

Please, please don't dump it, if you absolutely have to – do it in a stream.

Have you seen the mess in the West Chamber in Oxlow?

Some people are just fucking stupid :evil:

These guys are rather damming about the use of carbide.

http://users.skynet.be/sky75112/avalonuk/protection/protection_DIY.htm

Now that is a good page.

Every caver should be made to read this top to bottom on purchase of their first oversuit, helmet and lamp.

That site presents a pretty good case for never using carbide at all.

yeah - kind of made me think twice about using mine - it is a nice light - but definately a faff and definately damages a cave.

I remember doing Tatem wife a couple of years back and being disgusted at the black soot all over these pristine curtains ( the type that look like girls bits - is there an emoticon for childish snigger)

it was on a pitch head just out of reach (6'6") so intact but completely oblitorated.

NielB - you listening dood.

bubba said:

That site presents a pretty good case for never using carbide at all.

Click to expand...

I have always tried to defend the responsible use of carbide but this guy does put up a strong argument that I find very difficult to counter.

Quote;
Carbide light has several bad consequences. For me the most important one is the emission of very fine carbon particles by the burning flame, just like a burning candle does. They are being transported through the air, because in most caves there is a noticeable draught, and deposited on all non-vertical surfaces in the cave. In some Belgian caves that cavers with carbide light frequently visit (e.g. Nr. Two in Trou Bernard, Réseau Noir in Trou Weron), this effect has blackened every square centimetre.
Picture: black carbon slurry dripping off a big flowstone formation. This cave (Aven des Pèbres, Gard, France.) is being used frequently for "safaris" organized by nearby outdoor centres. They use carbide lighting... Despite the giant dimensions of the cave (gallery sections minimum 10x15 metres), the black carbon has been deposited up to 10 metres high and all formations are visibly black. This process took place in hardly 15 years, the cave was discovered in the ‘80s, and at that time the flowstone formations were sparkling and clean.

The outdoor centre dicussed are obviously irrespsonible but the deposites of soot have made me think.
I have seen black deposites in areas of cave that have not been entered before, beyond the squeeze in Burton Pingles Pipe and Full Moon Chamber. Both are natural but communicate with mine workings and I had assumed that these deposites were from candles/blasting and maybe even fire-setting. It is possible however that the deposites are from past years of carbide use.

It's always going to be difficult to establish the cause of the blackening in old mine workings, but if this phenomenon is being observed deep inside natural caves, then there can't be any other explaination.

Very good site. I have been to the Dent de Crolles (one mentioned on the site) and the huge amount of carbide and soot marks was staggering. There was also all kinds of crap left around the place. The UK seems to have escaped lightly but that is no reason to start now. Giants isn't that big a system - it's not going to kill you to take a container in for spare/waste carbide.

It's also extremely corrosive so not only does it look awful, it also seriously damages the cave environment. :cuss:

Carbide does have a place in very long trips - but with LEDs becoming better and cheaper the dumping of carbide will hopefully be a thing of the past.
And I'll try to remember to take a BDH in to Giants next time I'm there to remove what's there - where about is it Sam?

bubba said:

It's always going to be difficult to establish the cause of the blackening in old mine workings, but if this phenomenon is being observed deep inside natural caves, then there can't be any other explaination.

Click to expand...

OK - "ceiling burner" carbide lights do leave trails of soot when the flame comes in contact with rock/formations. I'm not sure about the soot particle explanation given for large areas of blackening found in a cave due to visits by large numbers of parties with carbide lights.

What about the caves in the UK that have been explored for decades with countless cavers wearing "stinky" caplamps? These lamps were less likely to leave accidental soot trails due to their position but must have emitted their fare share if particles over the years? Not much evidence of "blackness"?

Ceiling burners will darken the rock only where it comes in contact. If stinkys don't leave a clear trail the whole roof may be darkened but it will happen gradually so you wouldn't notice. Just a theory

Brendan said:

And I'll try to remember to take a BDH in to Giants next time I'm there to remove what's there - where about is it Sam?

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same. Notibly at valenties sump, ghost rift - poached egg passage - various in NE swallet.

Four years ago I purchased one of the first bright white LEDs to come on the caving market. It runs from 4.5v flatpacks each does 40hrs so I can easily carry enough light for a week or even two underground(probably equivalent to a whole tackle sack of carbide).
Since then I have used it with out problem for all my caving: small caves, big caves(china) long caves(draenen) deep caves(picos), wet caves, dry caves, digging, climbing, photography, multi day underground camps etc etc. On occaision I carry a tightly focused dive light for checking avens but other than that I can't think of a situation that requires any other light.
In short I can't think of any reason to use a carbide and the sooner it falls out of use and becomes unavailable the better.

Ben

Mr Lovett i presume?

Oi Huw, oke: you 'outing' people again?

I cannot believe that there are people who actually USE carbide... I'd always thought the only use of it was for re-enacting historical scenes for films, photos and/or silly events. I have not met or seen anyone on Mendip using carbide.

It's 2004, not 1954, isn't it?

Do people still smoke tobacco in clay pipes, wear clogs and claim the world is flat?

I confess.

I sometimes use my old "ceiling burner" carbide light mainly because I prefer the light you get from these. There have also been times when I was glad of having a nice, warm carbide generator to warm my hands on or to put inside my oversuit when a bit chilly.

I would use it all the time where they are not banned if it were not for the added "faff-factor" when compared to electric lamps.

There's nothing wrong with carbide lights, its the twat cavers who dump carbide that are at fault.

Ben said:

I confess

Click to expand...

I suppose I ought to point out that there's nothing wrong, per se, about wearing clogs, smoking pipes and being wildly off the mark about the shape of the Earth, Ben.

Flat earth theories aside, carbide light is very pleasent, but carbide dumps look and are foul by any light. Since carbide dumping twat cavers are likely to be with us as long as carbide is available, the sooner it isn't the better.

Now, where did I put those clogs.