UK Caving

TECHNICAL FORUMS => Cave Conservation => Topic started by: Pegasus on January 15, 2017, 12:11:32 pm

Title: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pegasus on January 15, 2017, 12:11:32 pm
Photos posted by Inglesport on their facebook page today with the caption:

Graffiti found in Gaping Gill on the 14/01/17.
PLEASE SHARE
Take nothing but memories and leave only footprints.


Anyone know any more?

(http://media.ukcaving.com/wl/?id=tW4gkRE9UhSNw80nhjh8Nn8PnDYT1381)   (http://media.ukcaving.com/wl/?id=4rkRpJclDKg5OFPogy79l5xrZapJNblG)

(http://media.ukcaving.com/wl/?id=B1JJACxPcPPuXeRijxfzTpK2YC8ZwpL5)    (http://media.ukcaving.com/wl/?id=77p30Pz4EJiQeJT9aeTm9GFZ0ory6V43)   
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: todcaver on January 15, 2017, 01:06:30 pm
 Facebook ?
Latest trip reports for that date ?
Uni / clubs
 :spank:
Hopefully they are struck with bad karma for at least a year  :lol:
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: aricooperdavis on January 15, 2017, 01:54:28 pm
Where was this in the system?

I'd be very saddened if this was done by members of a caving club (uni or otherwise)!
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 15, 2017, 04:09:36 pm
could some clever "bca" nerd not narrow  down connor(unusual name) and jamie  m .
then contact the appropriate club to see who has visited gg. hopefully someone has already thought of this and is busy sluthing away
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: braveduck on January 15, 2017, 04:14:09 pm
Interestingly ,Inglesport Facebook page where this was first reported are now getting some inappropriate posts almost condoning this ! :( 
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: aricooperdavis on January 15, 2017, 04:48:33 pm
I do find things like this interesting. There's a fascinating book by the journalist Jon Ronson called "so you've been publicly shamed" which looks at how the internet is used to administer "justice".

Perhaps clubs should have a system set-up in advance to deal with this kind of (very minor) vandalism so that we don't accidentally fuel any witch hunts. Having one individual speak with those involved would probably be the most effective way at preventing this sort of thing in a fair way.

It makes me think of the chamber in Eglwys where, along with the newer stuff, you can find >300 year old graffiti. It's absolutely amazing to think of cavers scratching their names into the rock all that time ago, and I think that there is some value to that old social history. The issue here is where and how it's been done, whilst the behaviour in the chamber in Eglwys seems to have been allowed by some consensus.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: RichardB1983 on January 15, 2017, 05:02:12 pm
I think I've found who it is: a quick Facebook search has revealed photos of the presumed (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1204852032926243&set=pb.100002043736352.-2207520000.1484499165.&type=3&theater) culprits standing in front of their handiwork (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1204851962926250&set=pb.100002043736352.-2207520000.1484499165.&type=3&theater) and there is a Connor, Ricki and Jamie in their friends list.

Certainly doesn't look like they're club cavers: no helmets / oversuits etc.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Ian Adams on January 15, 2017, 05:20:31 pm
Could I propose that a new position on UKc be created, to be known as "Investigator" ....

Could I also propose that RichardB be appointed to the said position?

The duties would include looking into vandalism and identifying culprits.

He seems to be rather good at it.

 ;)

Ian
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: alanw on January 15, 2017, 05:25:25 pm
He's got a friend called Charlie too. He's got a Facebook photo titled "Gaping gill cave" showing him dangling on a green (dynamic) rope from the tree. Several other photos clearly of GG.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: langcliffe on January 15, 2017, 05:31:46 pm
Hopefully, Natural England will get involved,  for it is they who are responsible for SSSI protection enforcement.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: RichardB1983 on January 15, 2017, 05:33:26 pm
He's got a friend called Charlie too. He's got a Facebook photo titled "Gaping gill cave" showing him dangling on a green (dynamic) rope from the tree. Several other photos clearly of GG.

That's how I found it: a Facebook search for public photos of "Gaping Gill" had this lad's photo on the first page: look about 10 seconds to find.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pete K on January 15, 2017, 05:37:41 pm
Hopefully, Natural England will get involved,  for it is they who are responsible for SSSI protection enforcement.
Can I suggest someone local takes some screen grabs and passes the info on to the correct authority at NE to deal with.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: andrewmc on January 15, 2017, 05:41:09 pm
Hopefully, Natural England will get involved,  for it is they who are responsible for SSSI protection enforcement.
Can I suggest someone local takes some screen grabs and passes the info on to the correct authority at NE to deal with.

I have taken some screenshots. Let's not burn them at the stake though... leaves a terrible mess.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pete K on January 15, 2017, 05:43:55 pm
Indeed, correct authority as opposed to pitch-fork wielding mob.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: alanw on January 15, 2017, 06:09:39 pm
Hopefully, Natural England will get involved,  for it is they who are responsible for SSSI protection enforcement.
Can I suggest someone local takes some screen grabs and passes the info on to the correct authority at NE to deal with.

I've just sent an e-mail to the Reserve Manager/ Cave Conservation Adviser
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: mrodoc on January 15, 2017, 08:41:24 pm
I notice Connor comes from Ziimbabwe - perhaps they do things differently there ;)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Robert Scott on January 15, 2017, 11:08:00 pm
I agree with Mr Gardner. This is something for Natural England and the estate managers to deal with. Perhaps to the maximum extent of the law as an example to discourage others.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Wayland Smith on January 16, 2017, 06:58:23 am
Heads on pikes next to the path walking up tends to warn others.  :o  ::)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pitlamp on January 16, 2017, 07:57:35 am
Where in the GG system is it?
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Wilson on January 16, 2017, 08:07:23 am
I don't like the tone of a lot of this. I don't know enough about this incident yet to make any sort of judgement.

Can you all say that you have never scratched on a cave wall? I know I have and it is documented in caving literature where and why I did it.

If we find out who they are I think it just might be best dealt with by giving them a friendly invitation to go caving with a club.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pitlamp on January 16, 2017, 08:14:21 am
On balance I think I tend to agree with the spirit of what Simon suggests above.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 16, 2017, 08:20:22 am
Simon has a point, if you look all there photos they seem the outdoor  adventurous type who just fancied trying caving and got it wrong. With a bit of education they will probably become good cavers and mortified at what they did
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Wilson on January 16, 2017, 08:21:59 am
On balance I think I tend to agree with the spirit of what Simon suggests above.

Thanks, I would expect you to John.

I also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system. It was later published in caving literature that I had done so and nobody has criticised me for doing it.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: MJenkinson on January 16, 2017, 08:58:15 am
" also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system"


Why?
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cooleycr on January 16, 2017, 09:49:37 am
For f****s sake don't let on to Kenilworth, he will go off on one and I worry that the server is getting full already!

Seriously though, a very good point about what is, and what is not, acceptable.
There are many examples of people leaving their mark in caves/mines throughout modern history and we look at their initials (or moniker) and debate who they were, when they were there, what they were doing there etc.
This seems to be generally acceptable whereas nowadays it is considered to be vandalism.

Should Neolithic cave art be removed and the surfaces be restored to their original state or is it acceptable because it is now part of our history?

Banksy - artist or vandal?.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: alastairgott on January 16, 2017, 10:19:29 am
Banksy - artist or vandal?.

Artist, Takes a clean (boring) wall and adds some colour to it in a comical or political way, which makes you think "is this art or vandalism". A typical arty question.

The scratching of names in walls is ok, I guess, if notable.
 I believe the northern bandit would agree, as would a few other notable Derbyshire scribes.
 Although the miners toast (speedwell) has had graffiti over some of the original inscriptions (or at least very near), which leads me to suggest that some of the very new graffiti here is exactly that, due to its lack of respect for older inscriptions (by writing over the top) and could only be described as "tagging", ie what neighbourhood scallys do.

Clearly the miners toast is newer than Neolithic and indeed some of the inscriptions included there are of [currently recent] historical note too (including the northern bandit) getting into speedwell from peak and various other milestones.

This in GG, I believe, is literally just tagging, but I guess we don't know what relationship these people have with Gaping Gill, whether they've been trying to get down for months making small amounts of Progress on each visit, till they eventually made their way down to the bottom. or whether they've had family members who have died down there.
 All probably unlikely, but I agree with what Simon said about welcoming them into the fold rather than casting them out, they clearly have some skills in caving.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: ah147 on January 16, 2017, 10:33:20 am
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Goydenman on January 16, 2017, 10:51:14 am
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.

I agree. LIKE!
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Mark Wright on January 16, 2017, 11:01:39 am
I don't like the tone of a lot of this. I don't know enough about this incident yet to make any sort of judgement.

Can you all say that you have never scratched on a cave wall? I know I have and it is documented in caving literature where and why I did it.

If we find out who they are I think it just might be best dealt with by giving them a friendly invitation to go caving with a club.

I totally agree with Simon on this.

I've got my name scribed on the wall opposite the miner's toast from when we connected Peak & Speedwell together.

Mark
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: mikem on January 16, 2017, 11:02:25 am
Certainly wouldn't have had permits!

Not terribly clear from the photo, but they seem to have done it on prussik knots (on dynamic rope):

(https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15826547_1204851862926260_3469547914000901513_n.jpg?oh=f9db3ede2d48942698109c14b1c4cbcc&oe=5914B962)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cooleycr on January 16, 2017, 12:09:29 pm
Is it a case of perspective here, after all it is not like they've smashed a load of stal to get there - so no 'real' damage in that sense, just doing what I imagine a lot of other people have done / thought about doing.. 

Simply by drilling a hole to fit an anchor plate the cave/mine has been damaged, perhaps in years to come that will be frowned upon?

These days with all the SM hosts, forums like this one along with printed publications, there is no need to scribe your initials in new (or re-discovered) systems/passages as a simple 'selfie' sent to (e.g) Descent should cover it and if it pleases you, post it on SM.

Personally I think that a quiet word would be suffice, as in please don't do it again, rather than a witch-hunt..

Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Alex on January 16, 2017, 12:45:07 pm
Quote
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

I realise that this is damage etc but it looks like a bunch of young guys who've got off their arses and gone and done something! Simply not knowing any better they've scratched their names into the walls. Bring em into the fold and try to educate them a little and you might end up with a bunch of younger cavers in the throws of club caving as well as avoiding repeat issues.

I also agree, at least they are not like most in this country and stewing in-front of the TV and costing the NHS money by being obese. We should not punish them for getting out more they just need to know about the sport of caving and the rules we abide by. It looks like they just got a-hold of a guide book and headed on down, being adventurous youth. They could have got into trouble of course so all the more reason to educate them on the best ways of getting underground.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 16, 2017, 05:17:22 pm
 :clap2: :clap2:the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along ::))
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed
Title: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: ah147 on January 16, 2017, 05:20:46 pm
:clap2: :clap2:the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along ::))
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed

I've done both.

Hasten to add, it was well received and simply a case of not knowing it was taboo. Very apologetic etc
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 16, 2017, 05:46:45 pm
:clap2: :clap2:the tone of the thread is in a much better place (until kenliworth comes along ::))
it might be an idea for somone to get in touch with them on facebook(im not on it) and give them a gentle nudge in the right direction or point them to this thread so they can see for themselves how points of view have changed

I've done both.

Hasten to add, it was well received and simply a case of not knowing it was taboo. Very apologetic etc

 well done
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: andrewmc on January 16, 2017, 05:47:47 pm
Certainly wouldn't have had permits!

although whether they need permits or not remains legally unclear, of course, so probably a bad thing to worry about :P
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: ah147 on January 16, 2017, 05:56:17 pm
If anything this goes to prove the irrelevance of permits, in this case at least. Nobody would have noticed two trips in there st all if it wasn't for the graffiti.

Permits are stupid.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Ed on January 16, 2017, 05:57:38 pm
You xan see day lighr from the main chamber.....
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 16, 2017, 05:59:59 pm
Certainly wouldn't have had permits!

although whether they need permits or not remains legally unclear, of course, so probably a bad thing to worry about :P
someone trying to start another crow fight  :ang: :ang: :ang:
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: mikem on January 16, 2017, 06:21:29 pm
Permit reference was purely as a way of finding out who they were.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: alanw on January 16, 2017, 07:42:44 pm
I would also argue for this being a case of education over prosecution.

Graffiti is one thing, going poorly equipped into a system with several non-obvious dangers is another.

There is the drop on the left just as you get to the squeeze through to the top of the main Bar Pot shaft, where the traverse line normally starts.

There is the drop on the left just before you get to SE Pot, which now has scaffold bars across it, after a previous incident.

And the drop into SE Pot itself as you scramble along the ledges.

I've personally had to wait at the bottom of the top pitch of Bar while someone got themselves stuck. Another caver turned up and I led him out through Small Mammal and we surfaced just as they were extracted.

Education is a must before they get themselves into serious trouble.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: MJenkinson on January 16, 2017, 07:54:30 pm

Permits are stupid.


HOW DARE YOU!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Wilson on January 16, 2017, 08:23:14 pm
" also scratched my name and the date on the wall in part of the GG system"


Why?

Have you done Hensler's Pot? It's why Burnley Pitch is named. It's recorded in the annals of BPC.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on January 16, 2017, 08:46:28 pm

Graffiti is one thing, going poorly equipped into a system with several non-obvious dangers is another.

There is the drop on the left just as you get to the squeeze through to the top of the main Bar Pot shaft, where the traverse line normally starts.

There is the drop on the left just before you get to SE Pot, which now has scaffold bars across it, after a previous incident.

And the drop into SE Pot itself as you scramble along the ledges.

I've personally had to wait at the bottom of the top pitch of Bar while someone got themselves stuck. Another caver turned up and I led him out through Small Mammal and we surfaced just as they were extracted.

Education is a must before they get themselves into serious trouble.
I know you mean well, but don't you think they knew there would be problems/dangers apart from negotiating the ropes in both directions, and that might have been part of the challenge?
They are old enough to be out on their own,  fit and able enough (if they did use knots rather than jammers) and organised enough to get there and get underground (more than could be said for a few trips I've "organised").
Apart from the graffiti I think it was a creditable achievement and it would be unfair to suggest to them that luck played more of a part in their success and survival than it does in any serious caving trip.
I wonder how many times they banged their heads?
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: mikem on January 16, 2017, 11:21:14 pm
I wonder how many times they banged their heads?
Probably not a lot, it's much harder to judge required clearance when you're wearing a helmet.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: ah147 on January 17, 2017, 12:56:25 am
I have been asked to post this by one of the members of the group on the trip.

As I said earlier, and others have guessed, decent lads who are just having a go to the best of their knowledge and ability. 

Quote

I'm not too sure where to start with this one as it's been a little overwhelming reading all the comments both on facebook and on the forum. I tried to make an account on the forum but there seems to be some kind of validation system so I've chosen you as you seem pretty human and understanding. I suppose it would make sense to give my viewpoint and then maybe people will realise where I'm coming from.

Me and my brother's have always been the outdoorsy type people, always willing to go out and try stuff out. About a year ago we went up to Malham cove in the morning to watch the sunrise. Up there we saw a slackline across the cove and we thought," that looks ace", so we went out and we bought ourselves a slackline and learning the skills from the internet, as most people do these days.

Around a month ago, the same thing sort of happened. We went out for a walk to Gaping Gill and was blown away by it. We ended up looking around crevices as you do, just exploring the area. We came across a hole,(to which we now know is called Bar Pot) and saw the anchors in the wall. Instinct was to look down, we realised we would need some sort of rigging equipment to get down there.

Thats's where youtube comes in, I know it's probably frowned upon using youtube to learn things but we were curious on how we would be able to decend and ascend the hole. Had a lovely time at GoOutdoors getting "all the gear" (still no idea).

We came back after practicing what we had learnt and descended down the first drop and carefully made our way downwards until we found the larger 30M drop. Gutted yet amazed we headed home and left it for yet another day.

After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

On our way back we noticed the amount of engravings saying which way was back. We then reached part of the passage where we could stand for a while and take a breather. As we were doing so we noticed that other people had engraved their names around this area of the passage and so there assumed that it must be where people engrave their initials. We also took part in this. I made sure that I did it out of the way others engravings as I didn't want to ruin an old marking. I'm not one to post everything on social media as I think it stops it from being special. We carried on our journey and returned home.

This morning my friend sent me the link to the UKcaving forum showing what we had done. I've been reading the updates on this throughout the day and taken into consideration every comment. Some are quite humbling, especially the opportunity to go with and gather some caving experience - despite doing what has upset a large amount of people from the caving community. I know the most sincere apology wouldn't change the circumstances because what's done is done. I can also tell that there's a lot of understanding people out there too who don't know where the line is drawn. We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.

Hope this is readable as I'm tired yet unable to sleep trying to get this of my chest.

Thank you!

Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Oceanrower on January 17, 2017, 01:46:07 am
Can't really argue with that.  :beer2:

Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Kenilworth on January 17, 2017, 02:06:07 am
Can't really argue with that.  :beer2:

Amen
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Kenilworth on January 17, 2017, 04:55:07 am
Quote
They are old enough to be out on their own,  fit and able enough (if they did use knots rather than jammers) and organised enough to get there and get underground (more than could be said for a few trips I've "organised").
Apart from the graffiti I think it was a creditable achievement and it would be unfair to suggest to them that luck played more of a part in their success and survival than it does in any serious caving trip.

Amen again.

I did my first dozen or so pits with prusiks (learned from an old climbing book) on dynamic rope before an upgrade to jugging dynamic with handled ascenders. No clue what I was doing, but one of the great joys in life is figuring things out with your own noggin.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: estelle on January 17, 2017, 07:48:02 am
Can't really argue with that.  :beer2:
Reading that, I'm amazed they got that far unscathed, but really hope that they get involved with the caving community and do some more trips, perhaps with a bit of help on safer kit and techniques as while they made a conservation mistake, they sound like the kind of keen young uns you want in your caving club.  :beer2:
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Wilson on January 17, 2017, 08:23:37 am
I think that's the best trip report by a caver that I've ever read on this forum.

Give the guys a prize.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 17, 2017, 08:25:39 am
Really commendable he has taken the time to reply on the forum with his justification, agree with Estelle that they are the kind of young lads you would want in your club
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Fulk on January 17, 2017, 08:52:06 am
Well done ah147 to follow up this 'story'; I take it you'll make sure that the positive comments on here get back to the lads concerned.

To get to Main Chamber the way they did takes guts and initiative – good for them. (And did they really use knots?)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: David Rose on January 17, 2017, 08:57:56 am
These guys are exactly what the caving world needs. They have determination, guts, and a sense of adventure. I'd happily take them caving any time. Brilliant effort to descend Bar Pot, reach the main chamber, and get out safely, and obviously they have apologised for adding their names to existing graffiti. (Though even graffiti, as the amazing 18th century inscriptions in the Speedwell streamway demonstrate, can have its place).

When I was a teenager, I slowly explored much of Swildons with mates the same age, on trips made after hitching rides from London. It was incredibly exciting. This superb trip report takes me back to those distant days.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Badlad on January 17, 2017, 09:35:13 am
Guys - that's a really fine trip you had there.  Many of our best known cavers started out in similar fashion.  I know I did and it led to a lifetime travelling and exploring caves around the world - and a well paid job in rope access.

I suggest you contact someone like the Bradford Pothole club who have a lot to do with Gaping Gill http://www.bpc-cave.org.uk/wp/ (http://www.bpc-cave.org.uk/wp/) I'm not a member myself but they always seem a welcoming can-do bunch.  There are other clubs too of course.

There shouldn't be any problem registering to use the forum  Give me an email on ukcavemail@gmail.com and I'll try to sort it out.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Beck on January 17, 2017, 09:47:45 am
Well said, but they don't really strike me as club types. Personally I think they'd be wasted on a club.

From a training point of view of course I can appreciate the referral.   
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Ian Adams on January 17, 2017, 10:11:53 am
Quote
.... We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.


This goes back to a point I was making a long time back when CNCC permits (and other areas) were "under fire".  You could not get a permit if you were not in a BCA affiliated club (or something like that) and I posed the question "what if you don't know about the BCA?". I was met with many rebuttals stating "it's not hard to find out"  etc etc etc.  My reply back was "How do you know to "find out" if you don't know there is something to find out?" 

Like Donald Rumsfeld famously said with the Iraq problem;

There are things we know
There are things we know we don't know
But there are things we don't know that we don't know

I hope, now, the reality of that problem is visible and those of us who (for whatever reason) micro-manage holes learn from this just as these lads have done.

Ian
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Disgusted from Cornwall. on January 17, 2017, 11:36:43 am
Why, in the name of god has this not got a gate on it, an approved access officer and a necklace of padlocks belonging to approved authorities?

If you've failed to gate a cave, you are totally responsible for this sort of craziness and damage that happens.

GET IT GATED NOOOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!! :furious:

Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Mattrees on January 17, 2017, 12:05:02 pm
Quote
After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

 :clap2:

I think what you did was the best of ideas. Genuinely exciting to read, many of us spend a whole caving career trying to recapture that sense of exploration. Well done for getting yourselves to the main chamber.

There are a bunch of other cavers, club and individuals, who would be excited by your enthusiasm. They can teach you nothing about the spirit of exploration, you've got that in spades, but they could share some of our techniques and practices that would allow you to explore further, in greater safety and with less impact.

When you run out of cave in Yorkshire (!), pop down to the Forest of Dean and get in touch.

Meantime, keep on exploring!
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: notdavidgilmour on January 17, 2017, 12:18:39 pm
Following on from what Mattrees has said above, If ever you fancy some of the old mines (or caves) in North Wales, give us a shout - these people are very active in North Wales http://www.ucet.org.uk/ (http://www.ucet.org.uk/)

What's done is done.  No harm was intended.  It's all part of the history of the cave. ;)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Nigelh on January 17, 2017, 12:52:05 pm
Well done! Well written report and good luck with your future explorations. Stay safe though eh?!
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Wilson on January 17, 2017, 12:56:27 pm
Why, in the name of god has this not got a gate on it, an approved access officer and a necklace of padlocks belonging to approved authorities?

If you've failed to gate a cave, you are totally responsible for this sort of craziness and damage that happens.

GET IT GATED NOOOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!! :furious:

Thanks for trying to offer advice but no we won't. We don't gate caves in the North. We generally want to encourage people to go caving so we don't put unnecessary obstacles in their way and do our best to remove obstacles and facilitate caving.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cooleycr on January 17, 2017, 01:07:52 pm
Can't really argue with that.  :beer2:

and who can blame them for assuming that it was just a cavers' thing -  anyone can go into an open cave/mine without any equipment at all and either enjoy the experience or for reasons unknown, trash the place (just look at Suicide in the Peak District).
These lads obviously enjoyed the experience so good on them..
we could get into a right old debate about whose responsibility it is to educate them, should the retailer have asked whether they were suitably trained with such equipment, should all systems be access controlled etc. but that would not be helpful.

Let sleeping dogs lie - they have acknowledged an 'error' and won't do it again.
I am heartened to see that as a community we are welcoming them into the fold.

Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: ianball11 on January 17, 2017, 01:23:42 pm
I have been asked to post this by one of the members of the group on the trip.

As I said earlier, and others have guessed, decent lads who are just having a go to the best of their knowledge and ability. 

Quote

I'm not too sure where to start with this one as it's been a little overwhelming reading all the comments both on facebook and on the forum. I tried to make an account on the forum but there seems to be some kind of validation system so I've chosen you as you seem pretty human and understanding. I suppose it would make sense to give my viewpoint and then maybe people will realise where I'm coming from.

Me and my brother's have always been the outdoorsy type people, always willing to go out and try stuff out. About a year ago we went up to Malham cove in the morning to watch the sunrise. Up there we saw a slackline across the cove and we thought," that looks ace", so we went out and we bought ourselves a slackline and learning the skills from the internet, as most people do these days.

Around a month ago, the same thing sort of happened. We went out for a walk to Gaping Gill and was blown away by it. We ended up looking around crevices as you do, just exploring the area. We came across a hole,(to which we now know is called Bar Pot) and saw the anchors in the wall. Instinct was to look down, we realised we would need some sort of rigging equipment to get down there.

Thats's where youtube comes in, I know it's probably frowned upon using youtube to learn things but we were curious on how we would be able to decend and ascend the hole. Had a lovely time at GoOutdoors getting "all the gear" (still no idea).

We came back after practicing what we had learnt and descended down the first drop and carefully made our way downwards until we found the larger 30M drop. Gutted yet amazed we headed home and left it for yet another day.

After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

On our way back we noticed the amount of engravings saying which way was back. We then reached part of the passage where we could stand for a while and take a breather. As we were doing so we noticed that other people had engraved their names around this area of the passage and so there assumed that it must be where people engrave their initials. We also took part in this. I made sure that I did it out of the way others engravings as I didn't want to ruin an old marking. I'm not one to post everything on social media as I think it stops it from being special. We carried on our journey and returned home.

This morning my friend sent me the link to the UKcaving forum showing what we had done. I've been reading the updates on this throughout the day and taken into consideration every comment. Some are quite humbling, especially the opportunity to go with and gather some caving experience - despite doing what has upset a large amount of people from the caving community. I know the most sincere apology wouldn't change the circumstances because what's done is done. I can also tell that there's a lot of understanding people out there too who don't know where the line is drawn. We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.

Hope this is readable as I'm tired yet unable to sleep trying to get this of my chest.

Thank you!


That's a cracking read, spirit of adventure is enticing.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: SamT on January 17, 2017, 01:33:14 pm
Why, in the name of god has this not got a gate on it, an approved access officer and a necklace of padlocks belonging to approved authorities?

If you've failed to gate a cave, you are totally responsible for this sort of craziness and damage that happens.

GET IT GATED NOOOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!! :furious:

Just ignore the Troll...
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: royfellows on January 17, 2017, 01:44:57 pm
Just a quick comment

The lads concerned are young and keen and obviously have the right attitude.

I was young and keen at one time and did leave the odd "RF" around, now, I am old and keen and leave nothing.

I know that mining needs new people who are young and keen, cant speak for caving though.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Simon Wilson on January 17, 2017, 01:48:09 pm
And this, ladies and gentlemen, is the preserved inscription made by Jamie ... on one of his early exploits before he became famous for cycling to the South Pole then going on to descend the North Ridge of K2 on a child's sledge provided by his main sponsor GoOutdoors - all done wearing the same T shirt.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: menacer on January 17, 2017, 01:50:10 pm
Why, in the name of god has this not got a gate on it, an approved access officer and a necklace of padlocks belonging to approved authorities?

If you've failed to gate a cave, you are totally responsible for this sort of craziness and damage that happens.

GET IT GATED NOOOOOOOOWWWWW!!!!!! :furious:

Just ignore the Troll...

But it was funny....well i thought it was...

Liked Ians point too.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pegasus on January 17, 2017, 01:58:15 pm
.... really hope that they get involved with the caving community and do some more trips,

Me too.

Guys, hope you join the forum - lots of support, help and advice to be found here  :)

Remember, we're not all of us perfect ourselves - I cringe when I think about dumping carbide underground, didn't know any better  :(

...and there's your first question, 'what the heck is carbide?!'  ;D

Pegasus
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Dgreenwell on January 17, 2017, 02:26:45 pm
It has been really interesting reading this thread.

On one of my very first trips I thumbed my initials into some clay as I didn't really know any better. I was told on that trip that was something I shouldn't do and now, 5 years later and with much more experience, I occasionally tell new cavers not to do the same thing. To me it seems part of the wider learning process that is key to caving and getting the most out of the activity that we all love.

The trip these guys had sounds great and their sense of adventure is evident, a sense of adventure that is hopefully still within all of us. Hopefully these guys keep having great adventures and, if they fancy it, join a caving club and get stuck in!  :beer2:
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Pegasus on January 17, 2017, 02:32:24 pm
and get stuck in! 

Nooooo, we don't want them getting stuck  :o
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Dgreenwell on January 17, 2017, 02:33:59 pm
Fair point, my wording on that might not have been the best!
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: David Rose on January 17, 2017, 03:40:28 pm
It would be quite a challenge to gate Gaping Gill main shaft. And how on earth would you open it?
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: owd git on January 17, 2017, 04:23:18 pm
I for one, and it is my opinion only, don't feel the need to be 'in a club' I do .however believe in instruction/ learning good SAFE practice. This very forum is more than adequate to provide any info' guidance and opinion. Tho for many  a club is the way to progress in all types of activity,sport lunchon, fitness, BDSM sex activity etc'
Get on the forum then decide ( I advise the latter  ;) )
Owd Git.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: andrewmc on January 17, 2017, 04:40:55 pm
It would be quite a challenge to gate Gaping Gill main shaft. And how on earth would you open it?

In the same way the CNCC secret headquarter (bolting division) gate opens, obviously...

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnaorqo6krg#)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: alastairgott on January 17, 2017, 04:45:17 pm
BDSM

You're showing signs of Lunacy...
Same hole, different time of year.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Goydenman on January 17, 2017, 05:05:39 pm
I have been asked to post this by one of the members of the group on the trip.

As I said earlier, and others have guessed, decent lads who are just having a go to the best of their knowledge and ability. 

Quote

I'm not too sure where to start with this one as it's been a little overwhelming reading all the comments both on facebook and on the forum. I tried to make an account on the forum but there seems to be some kind of validation system so I've chosen you as you seem pretty human and understanding. I suppose it would make sense to give my viewpoint and then maybe people will realise where I'm coming from.

Me and my brother's have always been the outdoorsy type people, always willing to go out and try stuff out. About a year ago we went up to Malham cove in the morning to watch the sunrise. Up there we saw a slackline across the cove and we thought," that looks ace", so we went out and we bought ourselves a slackline and learning the skills from the internet, as most people do these days.

Around a month ago, the same thing sort of happened. We went out for a walk to Gaping Gill and was blown away by it. We ended up looking around crevices as you do, just exploring the area. We came across a hole,(to which we now know is called Bar Pot) and saw the anchors in the wall. Instinct was to look down, we realised we would need some sort of rigging equipment to get down there.

Thats's where youtube comes in, I know it's probably frowned upon using youtube to learn things but we were curious on how we would be able to decend and ascend the hole. Had a lovely time at GoOutdoors getting "all the gear" (still no idea).

We came back after practicing what we had learnt and descended down the first drop and carefully made our way downwards until we found the larger 30M drop. Gutted yet amazed we headed home and left it for yet another day.

After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

On our way back we noticed the amount of engravings saying which way was back. We then reached part of the passage where we could stand for a while and take a breather. As we were doing so we noticed that other people had engraved their names around this area of the passage and so there assumed that it must be where people engrave their initials. We also took part in this. I made sure that I did it out of the way others engravings as I didn't want to ruin an old marking. I'm not one to post everything on social media as I think it stops it from being special. We carried on our journey and returned home.

This morning my friend sent me the link to the UKcaving forum showing what we had done. I've been reading the updates on this throughout the day and taken into consideration every comment. Some are quite humbling, especially the opportunity to go with and gather some caving experience - despite doing what has upset a large amount of people from the caving community. I know the most sincere apology wouldn't change the circumstances because what's done is done. I can also tell that there's a lot of understanding people out there too who don't know where the line is drawn. We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.

Hope this is readable as I'm tired yet unable to sleep trying to get this of my chest.

Thank you!


Takes me back to my first explorations of caves with two mates. If you're still following this thread lads always welcome to find new caves in Nidderdale with a bunch of us there...keep that spirit of adventure and lesson learnt eh...'leave nothing but footprints and take nothing but photographs'
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 17, 2017, 05:12:27 pm
on the 4th page already  :bow:praise itself
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: owd git on January 17, 2017, 05:14:31 pm


You're showing signs of Lunacy...
Same hole, different time of year.
[/quote]
I have the certificates , let alone the signs!

In seriousness though. a club isn't always the way to do things. some do prefer to establish a 'looser' group of competant safe and trusted individuals to join in activities with, It depends on so many variables and attitudes.
O.G.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: NewStuff on January 17, 2017, 06:07:22 pm
In seriousness though. a club isn't always the way to do things. some do prefer to establish a 'looser' group of competant safe and trusted individuals to join in activities with, It depends on so many variables and attitudes.

This.

Residing in North Wales, I saw the politics and was very anti-club for a long time. I still learned how to explore safely, treat the environment, artefacts, formations etc. Clubs have a place, certainly, but they are not right for everyone.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Disgusted from Cornwall. on January 17, 2017, 06:27:58 pm
It would be quite a challenge to gate Gaping Gill main shaft. And how on earth would you open it?

In the same way the CNCC secret headquarter (bolting division) gate opens, obviously...

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dnaorqo6krg#)

big electric fence
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: cavemanmike on January 17, 2017, 06:33:26 pm
no politics in our club  :hug: :hug: well not much
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: NewStuff on January 17, 2017, 06:41:57 pm
no politics in our club  :hug: :hug: well not much

I was in your club for exactly that reason ;-)
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: royfellows on January 17, 2017, 07:00:03 pm
........................... a necklace of padlocks...................


I am still pondering on this one. It would not actually take much making up, could be old worn out padlocks, but, the heavier the better.

Then we would have to decide who would be made to wear it, a sort of 'community punishment' type fit the crime type thingy

 :lol:

Before any one starts, its only a joke.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: owd git on January 17, 2017, 11:56:48 pm
........................... a necklace of padlocks...................


I am still pondering on this one. It would not actually take much making up, could be old worn out padlocks, but, the heavier the better.

Then we would have to decide who would be made to wear it, a sort of 'community punishment' type fit the crime type thingy

 :lol:

Before any one starts, its only a joke.

Are we still 'with' the BDSM  theme Roy.?
A bat roaster in the face would work, :thumbsup:


Way back........
No,


 further than that;
 I, and both my sons did , with aforethought make sure  we could tie, and use (both up and down) prussic knots, of various sorts. suspended from a tree near Cromford canal.
 just in case , you understand. Before I responsibly took them underground. :shrug:
 Knob eh?
But they could both self rescue if sh*t happened!!
Respect to the chaps who looked, evaluated, then tried again. With greater insight. Safely.
P. M. (personal message on this bit  :thumbsup: ) If you're in the peak district and want a trip.
Ric'
Owd Git.
Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: Gaz Wood on January 18, 2017, 05:38:19 pm
I have been asked to post this by one of the members of the group on the trip.

As I said earlier, and others have guessed, decent lads who are just having a go to the best of their knowledge and ability. 

Quote

I'm not too sure where to start with this one as it's been a little overwhelming reading all the comments both on facebook and on the forum. I tried to make an account on the forum but there seems to be some kind of validation system so I've chosen you as you seem pretty human and understanding. I suppose it would make sense to give my viewpoint and then maybe people will realise where I'm coming from.

Me and my brother's have always been the outdoorsy type people, always willing to go out and try stuff out. About a year ago we went up to Malham cove in the morning to watch the sunrise. Up there we saw a slackline across the cove and we thought," that looks ace", so we went out and we bought ourselves a slackline and learning the skills from the internet, as most people do these days.

Around a month ago, the same thing sort of happened. We went out for a walk to Gaping Gill and was blown away by it. We ended up looking around crevices as you do, just exploring the area. We came across a hole,(to which we now know is called Bar Pot) and saw the anchors in the wall. Instinct was to look down, we realised we would need some sort of rigging equipment to get down there.

Thats's where youtube comes in, I know it's probably frowned upon using youtube to learn things but we were curious on how we would be able to decend and ascend the hole. Had a lovely time at GoOutdoors getting "all the gear" (still no idea).

We came back after practicing what we had learnt and descended down the first drop and carefully made our way downwards until we found the larger 30M drop. Gutted yet amazed we headed home and left it for yet another day.

After another trip to go outdoors we arrived again, this time with more rigging equipment, It's probably not the best of ideas returning over and over after realising we are still yet unequipped but this all added to the excitement when we did return with enough equipment for the decent. We lowered ourselves down one by one and then began to head to Gill. We crawled through various tunnels until we heard the roar of Gill and finally got there and felt a real sense of achievement, We looked around and found loads of stals. I was saddened to see that some had been snapped off, maybe by accident or on purpose but nether the less it was a shame.

On our way back we noticed the amount of engravings saying which way was back. We then reached part of the passage where we could stand for a while and take a breather. As we were doing so we noticed that other people had engraved their names around this area of the passage and so there assumed that it must be where people engrave their initials. We also took part in this. I made sure that I did it out of the way others engravings as I didn't want to ruin an old marking. I'm not one to post everything on social media as I think it stops it from being special. We carried on our journey and returned home.

This morning my friend sent me the link to the UKcaving forum showing what we had done. I've been reading the updates on this throughout the day and taken into consideration every comment. Some are quite humbling, especially the opportunity to go with and gather some caving experience - despite doing what has upset a large amount of people from the caving community. I know the most sincere apology wouldn't change the circumstances because what's done is done. I can also tell that there's a lot of understanding people out there too who don't know where the line is drawn. We didn't even know there was a line, we didn't know what the SSSI is, who Natural England are, that you needed a permit to go caving. We literally just saw a hole and decided we wanted to go down it.

Hope this is readable as I'm tired yet unable to sleep trying to get this of my chest.

Thank you!

I'd be happy to do some surface SRT training with the lads at the YSS if they like? I was shocked to see the graffiti first hand in GG systems on Saturday 14th Jan and I was on the trip with the person who took the pictures of it. It's a shame it was done but these lads sound like they were a little uneducated. Hey, we've all had to start somewhere.
I think I've found who it is: a quick Facebook search has revealed photos of the presumed (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1204852032926243&set=pb.100002043736352.-2207520000.1484499165.&type=3&theater) culprits standing in front of their handiwork (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1204851962926250&set=pb.100002043736352.-2207520000.1484499165.&type=3&theater) and there is a Connor, Ricki and Jamie in their friends list.

Certainly doesn't look like they're club cavers: no helmets / oversuits etc.


Sent from my SM-J500FN using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Anyone know who these four might be??
Post by: mrodoc on January 18, 2017, 05:50:56 pm
Interesting mail. These are the sort of people we want in the caving community. I was outraged initially but reading the 'culprits' post I am impressed at the speed of their learning and also their caution. It takes me back to my early days of caving and, of course, there were even earlier days when there no guide books. We would enter a system then turn back when we felt we were uncertain, gradually building up our confidence until we felt able to tackle something harder.  Context is everything regarding the graffiti and the account of finding an area full of graffiti from different eras might well encourage explorers to think this was the done thing (rather like sticking stones on cairns).  In Pollnagollum in County Clare one feature of the cave is a similar area with graffiti dating back to the early days of caving.  I have a nice photo of some graffiti by a very well known University club dating back 60 years in another Irish cave.