UK Caving

NEWS, NOTICES & THE FORUM => Caving Chat => Topic started by: Mark on August 25, 2019, 06:04:15 am

Title: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Mark on August 25, 2019, 06:04:15 am
Does anyone know of an open shaft at least 250mtrs deep (good condition) 2.5mtrs diameter, good access, ideally near the national grid, where a test rig could be installed, for a power generation contraption involving a heavy weight.

Ladywash would be ideal, apart from it’s used for exhausting Milldam
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Graigwen on August 25, 2019, 10:31:04 am
... an open shaft at least 250mtrs deep (good condition)...



Presumably that is 250m deep but not partly filled with water?


.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: AR on August 25, 2019, 01:01:55 pm
New Engine _might_be a possibility but I don't know how susbtantial/removeable the cap is, plus there's the unconfirmed tale that the engine beam is wedged halfway down! I don't think there's anything else in the Peak deep enough or unflooded, likewise I don't think there's much left in the way of unfilled coal mine shafts that would fit the bill.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Big Jim on August 25, 2019, 02:09:34 pm
Which New Engine Adam?  I think New Engine at Gregory (Ashover) is very deep but don't know much about it but presume that's bloody deep too being up on the gritstone and its in a the farm yard isn't it?
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: AR on August 25, 2019, 05:05:30 pm
I was thinking of the Eyam Edge one, but yes, the topmost shaft at Gregory might also be deep and wide enough. No idea about its current condition though...
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: ChrisJC on August 25, 2019, 07:02:35 pm
I wonder if any of the Minera shafts are deep enough, or one of the Milwr Tunnel ones (over 600ft if I recall correctly, so might be a bit short).

Chris.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: markpot on August 25, 2019, 07:27:55 pm
New engine ashover was my first thought
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: bograt on August 25, 2019, 07:57:47 pm
How about an abandoned railway tunnel vent shaft? the tunnel from Woodhead towards Peniston comes to mind.
 
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: NewStuff on August 25, 2019, 08:00:35 pm
I wonder if any of the Minera shafts are deep enough, or one of the Milwr Tunnel ones (over 600ft if I recall correctly, so might be a bit short).

Chris.

Taylors shaft comes to mind - 800ft or so by all accounts. There are deeper shafts up there (Meadow/City), but Taylors is not by any "toursity" bits.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: nickwilliams on August 26, 2019, 12:22:50 am
Might be worth posting this on AditNow, Mark.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: cavemanmike on August 26, 2019, 11:09:33 am
Pen y bryn is 800 ft
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Big Jim on August 26, 2019, 08:22:15 pm
How deep is Cromford Moor mine ie the capped shaft at Black Rocks car park. That's got lecky close by at the old visitor centre/bogs.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: AR on August 26, 2019, 09:04:43 pm
Cromford Moor is somewhere round 400-450ft IIRC.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: ChrisJC on August 26, 2019, 09:18:48 pm
Pen y bryn is 800 ft

That's the one I was thinking of. I believe that United Utilities were using it until recently.

Chris.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Fishes on August 27, 2019, 01:59:10 pm
Cromford Moor is somewhere round 400-450ft IIRC.

From memory it was around 360 feet to the current bottom. Its driven in the vein so the width is limited and it twists around with the hade and is not perfectly vertical.

Lynne Willis did a shaft survey and a sketch survey of the workings was also carried out (previously displayed in the visitor centre) when we were working down there in around 89/90.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Big Jim on August 27, 2019, 04:40:32 pm
Golconda? So long since I went down there on the WMRG winch so cant remember how deep and near lecky supply....
 Mark doesn't want much does he!
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: cavemanmike on August 27, 2019, 04:41:30 pm
Quote from: cavemanmike link=topic=25411.msg312500#msg312500 date=1566814173

Pen y bryn is 800 ft
[/quote

That's the one I was thinking of. I believe that United Utilities were using it until recently.

Chris.

Hi Chris
U/u have never used pen y bryn.
They have used herward shaft and lately caeau shaft
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Fishes on August 27, 2019, 05:10:09 pm
Golconda? So long since I went down there on the WMRG winch so cant remember how deep and near lecky supply....
 Mark doesn't want much does he!

Unfortunately not wide or deep enough for Mark.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: ali_mac on August 28, 2019, 05:26:31 pm
Nosey question - what is this actually for?
You've piqued my curiosity!

A
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: AR on August 28, 2019, 09:19:58 pm
It'll be for a trial of a power storage system - you have a deep shaft and a weight on a cable, with a generator geared to the drum so when the weight descends, you get electricity. The idea is that you drop the weight when there's a shortage on the grid, then wind it back up when you've got surplus (cheaper) electricity kicking around.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 28, 2019, 10:12:40 pm
Yep.. along the lines of this

www.theengineer.co.uk/abandoned-mine-shafts-energy-storage/
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: owd git on August 29, 2019, 07:17:31 am
could depth be offset by gearing / pulley system?  :shrug:
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 29, 2019, 08:24:44 am
No not really - the total amount of potential energy is dictated by 2 things, the mass of the weight, the length of the drop.

Then you have to take away all the losses due to friction, efficiency of generators etc.   Adding more gearing/pulleys just increases the proportion of losses due to friction, and doesn't increase the amount of energy you can harvest.

The principle is the same as that used by Dinorwig pumped hydro scheme (and other such pumped storage schemes).

Dinorwig was traditionally used for 'peak lopping' i.e. it kicked in at 7pm or when ever it was that coronation street finished and everyone stuck the kettle on.  It used to be the exact point of peak demand on the grid to the extent that they used to have a telly in the control room so they could see the exact point at which the credits rolled on the program so they could push the button.

I suspect the peak demand profile on the grid is changing as peoples viewing habits have changed radically over the last decade with 'on demand' viewing.   Perhaps far less predictable, but then perhaps far less 'peaks and troughs'
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Boy Engineer on August 29, 2019, 09:06:11 am
Quote
It used to be the exact point of peak demand on the grid to the extent that they used to have a telly in the control room so they could see the exact point at which the credits rolled on the program so they could push the button.

Judging by some of the barrel-scraping stuff on the box recently, I imagine it’s more a question of reducing supply as folk reach for the off button. I’m not sure if it is an ageing thing, but there do seem to be a lot of morons unable to put up shelves/do their own garden/avoid cheating on a partner/cook the most basic dish etc. Ironic that at a time when they have more information in the palm of their hand than ever before, the big screen seems to celebrate incompetence and ignorance.
Anyway, must go now as nurse says it’s tablet time.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: JasonC on August 29, 2019, 02:50:37 pm
..... it kicked in at 7pm or when ever it was that coronation street finished and everyone stuck the kettle on. ....

It'll be when Love Island goes off now  ;D
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Fulk on August 29, 2019, 05:27:55 pm


Boy Engineer:
Quote
but there do seem to be a lot of morons unable to put up shelves/do their own garden/avoid cheating on a partner/cook the most basic dish
;

Not to menmtion not knowing that if you shag someone they might get pregnant!
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: cavemanmike on August 29, 2019, 08:29:09 pm
Moron shags moron =super moron  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 29, 2019, 10:21:44 pm
Its all well amd good looking for existing shafts.. nenthead springs to mind.

 Wonder what the cost would be to sink a new purposes made shaft.  There must be parts of the land that would be suitable. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Graigwen on August 29, 2019, 10:25:26 pm
..... it kicked in at 7pm or when ever it was that coronation street finished and everyone stuck the kettle on. ....

It'll be when Love Island goes off now  ;D

In the old days. it used to be half time in the Cup Final.

.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 29, 2019, 10:26:29 pm
..... it kicked in at 7pm or when ever it was that coronation street finished and everyone stuck the kettle on. ....

It'll be when Love Island goes off now  ;D

In the old days. it used to be half time in the Cup Final.

.
Once a year!
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Fulk on August 30, 2019, 10:08:29 am
Back to the topic:

By my reckoning (anyone – feel free to check/query it), if you drop a mass of 2000 tonnes down a hole 250 m deep you generate 5 billion joules; if you lowered it down gently over the course of one day, it would generate 57,870 joules/sec, AKA watts. Apparently, the average house in the UK uses on average 429 watts (averaged over the course of one day), so the hole/weight contraption could power ~135 houses (if it was pulled up and let down once a day).

Is that a reasonable, viable output for the effort involved?
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 30, 2019, 12:18:26 pm
Careful with your units and figures there Fulk.

a household cannot 'use' 429 watts, in the same way a car does not consume 40 miles/per gallon.   They are rates of use, and the total consumption depends on how long that rate is maintained.

I get your gist though.

The point is not to improve generating capacity.  The biggest problem we have on the grid at the moment is one of energy storage.  The old days of a few nuclear and coal fired power stations (not easy to turn up and down) meeting the base demand, with a few gas powered stations, (easier to modulate) to deal with fluctuations and about 4 pumped storage hydro installations to hit those short lived peaks are now behind us.

We need to find ways of storing the energy when we have excess, and releasing it when we need it, either in times of peak demand, or at times of low wind/solar resource.  This is just one option being explored, its relatively low tech, low impact, low maintenance and whilst its never going to be a Dinorwig, if enough smaller locations can be found, it might well provide part of the solution.

Another idea is that once everyone is driving electric cars, at any given moment, you'd have certain percentage of them connected to the grid charging thus creating a huge grid connected battery.  'Smart' metering/chargers could mean that if your car is fully charged, but sat there overnight say (or outside the office during the day), you might be able to 'lend' some electricity back to the grid.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Fulk on August 30, 2019, 01:26:22 pm
Thank you SamT; you are right, but I think that what I meant by 'use' was 'runs at a rate of'.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 30, 2019, 03:11:18 pm
 :thumbsup:

kWh is a much better unit to use when talking energy use.  Joules are all a bit old fashioned and cumbersome and kWh are the unit used by utility companies. 

2000kg x 250m x 9.81 (gravity) x 0.7 (efficiency) = 3,433,500 kJ = 953.75 kWh.

Average house use is very hard to establish, but lets say 10kWh a day. = ~95 houses (but that is to supply all their energy for one whole day).

(think I've got my units right  :-\)

As I say, the system is not really designed to work in that way, and it bugs me when the media always revert to saying - can power 500 homes etc.  (though granted,  it does give a very rough idea of magnitudes and orders of scale).
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Fulk on August 30, 2019, 04:11:41 pm
You're obviously more tuned into this than I am, Sam – still, doesn':

2000 kg x 250 m x 9.81 x 0.7 equal 3433.5 kJ?
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: SamT on August 31, 2019, 08:26:42 am
Well.. yes.  But convert that to kWh and you only get 0.93 kWh.

My gut instinct is to question that as it really does bring into question the worthiness of the concept

(I think I was trying to be optimistic before and assumed I was a factor of a 1000 out)

Now I'm confused.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Boy Engineer on August 31, 2019, 10:13:34 am
Quote
(I think I was trying to be optimistic before and assumed I was a factor of a 1000 out)

You are. They are talking about a 2000 tonne mass, not 2t. You’ve used 2000kg.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Roger W on August 31, 2019, 11:49:34 am
A 2000 tonne mass is a rather large chunk of whatever...  254 cubic metres of iron, according to a conversion program I googled, or 176 cubic metres of lead.  And it's going to need some pretty hefty cables and pulley wheels to support it.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on August 31, 2019, 02:27:21 pm
:thumbsup:
 Joules are all a bit old fashioned and cumbersome
You kids don't know you're born!

Think yourself lucky you never had to use the erg, young man.

Or the slug rod squared/fortnight squared for that matter.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: droid on August 31, 2019, 06:01:42 pm
If it's a mineshaft, shouldn't it be fathoms?
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: PeteHall on August 31, 2019, 09:04:42 pm
I wonder if such a system could be built into an active mine shaft. Boulby is bloody deep (forget the exact figure) and the new Sirius Minerals one is something like 1.5km deep...
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Graigwen on September 01, 2019, 06:58:57 pm
If it's a mineshaft, shouldn't it be fathoms?

The fathom is a pretty handy historical unit in the UK, and when you are familiar with using fathoms they are easy to visualise. However in the modern day they generally lead to confusion as most people are not familiar with them and they are always inconvenient when calculating gravitational potential energy as you have to do an extra conversion step.

Years ago when I worked for a large Canadian mining corporation re-evaluating some Welsh mineral prospects, we had to be careful to avoid using metric units in material we sent to Canada as the corporation worked withj Imperial units only. I sent a load of geophysical and geochemical surveys (in feet, yards and miles) accompanied by mine plans and sections in fathoms and yards. The response was a baffled enquiry about "fms" which they did not understand.

.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Graigwen on September 01, 2019, 07:45:15 pm
:thumbsup:

kWh is a much better unit to use when talking energy use.  Joules are all a bit old fashioned and cumbersome and kWh are the unit used by utility companies. 


Joules are not at all old fashioned, they are the SI unit for energy. The SI unit for power (i.e. the rate of energy conversion) is the watt, which is just another way of saying one joule per second.

The kWh is an old fashioned unit still used by some utility companies, largely for historical reasons as British consumers are used to it. The kWh is cumbersome to use since it contains time twice, once in the form of the SI unit for time the second and also in the form of the non SI unit the hour. As the energy (in other words joules) is both divided by time (seconds) and multiplied by time (hours) the kWh is just a clumsy way of stating a certain amount of energy and is therefore equivalent to a certain number of joules.

1 KWh  =  60 x 60 x 1000J  = 3,600,000J = 3.6MJ



.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on October 21, 2019, 01:09:13 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/21/how-uks-disused-mine-shafts-plan-to-store-renewable-energy
Doesn't contain much more information.
Does contain the usual mashup of units but at least doesn't talk about massive weights.
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: mrodoc on October 21, 2019, 06:23:59 pm
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/oct/21/how-uks-disused-mine-shafts-plan-to-store-renewable-energy
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: Chocolate fireguard on October 21, 2019, 09:58:00 pm
?
Title: Re: Deep Mine Shaft Required
Post by: notdavidgilmour on October 22, 2019, 10:55:49 pm
Pen y bryn is 800 ft

It's well 'n' truly capped and hidden though  ;)