UK Caving

OTHER STUFF => Idle Chat => Topic started by: Pitlamp on October 10, 2019, 11:02:52 am

Title: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on October 10, 2019, 11:02:52 am
Nowt to do with caving - but my electricity company seems to be very keen on my having a smart meter fitted. My electricity bills are small anyway (as I don't use electric heating) and I remember reading somewhere that smart meters are best avoided for some reason.

So I was just interested in what fellow cavers thought about these. Should I go for it or would the most "smart" thing to do be to resist?
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: maxf on October 10, 2019, 11:08:49 am
My very skeptical view is that they will only use the data to increase their profits somehow so I have avoided getting one so far.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Laurie on October 10, 2019, 11:54:02 am
We have one. I makes no real difference, you can still opt to pay quarterly as before. It's useful to see how much electricity you're using at any one time and your bills are always accurate rather than estimated.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: mikem on October 10, 2019, 12:52:49 pm
& they can reduce the number of meter readers they employ...
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Minion on October 10, 2019, 01:07:29 pm
Smart meters allow data collection in half hourly (HH) periods (the standard measurement period in the energy retail industry). A HH report will take the format below, but on a daily basis.

Period:                   Energy (kWh)
1 (00.00-00.30)         1
2 (00.30-01.00)         1
3 (01.00-01.30)         2
Repeat measurement for 48 periods during a day.

This allows your energy supplier to know exactly when you are using energy, and how much.

This is useful for them in two ways..

Firstly they have more data to allow them to trend and forecast energy consumption more accurately over time. This give the grid more stability as National Grid will be able to dispatch additional energy onto the grid when required more accurately, saving costs as they won't have to overestimate demand by so much, which means they won't have to overpay for energy they won't need.

Second, in the coming years, due to the increased penetration of renewables into the UKs energy mix, there is likely to be a surplus of energy during the day (most are in work/out of their homes, solar generation will peak during mid day), and a deficit during the evenings when the sun has gone down, possibly further exacerbated by low winds that day, people will also be home from work having showers, cooking food, watching Corrie, so energy demand will peak. Smart meters will allow energy supplier to charge us consumers different tariffs at different time of the day, as they will know how much and when we used it. High generation, low demand during the day...cheaper energy. High demand and low generation during the evenings...expensive energy.

In short, having a smart meter now isn't really an issue as you will get a fancy little display in your house so you know how much energy you're using an how much money you've spent on it today/this week/this month.

Having a smart meter in future will open you up to the variable tariffs, which will be inevitable in a few years. I'm not sure if this is a bad thing. With a smart meter you will either pay for exactly what you have used, when you have used it. Without a smart meter, will they have to assume an average pence per kWh, and charge you that on all energy consumed? This cost may work out to be higher, than paying for exactly what you've used.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on October 10, 2019, 01:18:14 pm
Wow - some incredibly useful responses above already - many thanks.

I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in this, so please keep 'em coming.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Badlad on October 10, 2019, 01:20:24 pm
I think one of the main complaints was that they were not universal and ceased working if you changed suppliers.  As many people switch suppliers every year this seems like a big waste. I believe the new generation of smart metters are meant to address this but I'm sure I read there are still some problems.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: nickwilliams on October 10, 2019, 01:20:57 pm
How strong is the mobile phone signal inside your house? Smart meters use the mobile network to send data back to your DNO so they will refuse to fit one if they can't get a strong enough signal.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: ttxela2 on October 10, 2019, 01:53:12 pm
Not sure if they are good or bad becuse we registered to have one fitted, 3 appointments were made to install and on each occasion the work could not proceed because it was raining (on all occasions just very slight drizzle). I still get the odd message asking to rearrange but I'm not going to spend any more time hanging around at home waiting for it to happen  :furious:
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: royfellows on October 10, 2019, 04:09:10 pm
I get pestered a lot by Eon who i am with.
letters asking for an appointment to make a'safety check' of the meter
others about the smart meters.
If their ordinary meters are not safe this leaves me with little confidence in the smart ones.
 :lol:
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Martin Wright on October 10, 2019, 04:28:05 pm
We are with Eon and have a smart meter. The only difference we have noticed is not having to supply meter readings or allow Eon's meter reading staff into our kitchen where the original meter was located.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: royfellows on October 10, 2019, 04:42:14 pm
Mine is in the front foyer but most of the time I supply my own readings.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: traff on October 10, 2019, 04:51:24 pm
Call me cynical but I suspect eventually the suppliers will use smart meters to bill you for apparent power opposed to real power. Which will inevitably cost you more.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Minion on October 10, 2019, 04:55:16 pm
Call me cynical but I suspect eventually the suppliers will use smart meters to bill you for apparent power opposed to real power. Which will inevitably cost you more.

I don’t think it would be that much different? Houses don’t have very many inductive loads.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: damian on October 10, 2019, 05:05:30 pm
Had one fitted, then changed suppliers. Ever since it has been turned off (ironically saving power) and I have returned to making my readings manually. A total waste of time and money. The guy who came out needed a special part to fit our gas one and said someone would be in contact to arrange a second appointment. They never did so we don't have the gas done.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: crickleymal on October 10, 2019, 05:16:18 pm
We have one and it doesn't work properly. It collects the data from the individual meters but cannot transmit it to the company. So we have to phone them up or email the readings through every quarter.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Maj on October 10, 2019, 05:24:25 pm
I had a smart meter fitted with my previous supplier for both gas and electric. They still rang me asking for meter readings. One of the benefits is meant to be no meter readings required to be taken on site (except the two yearly meter safety check that I believe is more to check that it's not been tampered with) I told where they can go and to read it themselves.
Another alleged advantage is that you will save money on your bills, this I feel is bulls**t too. You will probably look at the monitor/display for a couple of weeks and then ignore it, unplug it and save the energy the adaptor plug uses. I guess you probably already know which appliances are heavy energy consumers.
 
I've now changed energy suppliers and since my smart meters are "thick" my energy supplier cannot interrogate them for my meter readings, I instead have to read them. I find reading them more awkward than the old traditional meters, so I end up taking several photographs after pushing button "A" or something before I'm able to get a reading. If I had the choice again I'd say "No" to smart meters.

The problem I believe stems from the fact the government set targets for a percentage of households to have smart meters by a set date. But this didn't give enough time for proper research and development (or the energy companies didn't get off their arses and sort it in good time). The net result was ill thought out, rushed and no collaboration between the energy companies, they all did their own thing.

My advice would be to hold off as long as possible, but if you do go for smart meters, ensure that they are universally readable by all energy suppliers.

Maj.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Fulk on October 10, 2019, 05:57:30 pm
The last time the meter-reader came to read our (electricity) meter I asked him what he thought about smart meters, and he said 'A waste of time – don't bother'.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Allan on October 10, 2019, 07:04:44 pm
One of my clients had them installed, the gas one was obviously faulty as the tenants gas bills went through the roof, the independent Heating Engineer who checked it, said that according to the meter they were using an impossible amount of gas for a residential property.  This cut no ice with the supplier/installer who refused to come out and look at it.  Result the tenant left the house, the landlord was left with the problem, it still hasn't been sorted.

As for the usage displays, I see a lot of them in houses, virtually all are unplugged or hidden behind various kitchen appliances.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: aricooperdavis on October 10, 2019, 07:19:54 pm
I would like to just add that smart meters allow the national grid to predict much more reliably when and where energy is going to be needed. This allows them to improve their energy scheduling, informs the design of new energy systems, and allows them to improve their service delivery. As such it is very likely that by installing a smart meter and allowing the national grid to collect this data you will enable more efficient energy delivery and therefore save energy and carbon emissions in the long term. The same goes for water metering. Whilst for individual consumers the decision is tricky, for the networks as a whole it is a no-brainer - the more data the operators have the more efficiently they can operate.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on October 10, 2019, 07:43:42 pm
Some really interesting responses here - my thanks to all of you.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Jenny P on October 10, 2019, 07:48:33 pm
Had one fitted by our previous supplier but it ceased to work when I changed supplier 3 years ago so I hadn't bothered but simply sent in the readings from the gas & electricity meters easily accessible outside the house.

Now my present contract has run out and, in order to get a cheap deal on the new contract, they say I now have to have their new smart meters fitted, presumably one for the gas and one for the electric as both are on the same deal.  This is due to be done tomorrow so I can let you know how it goes - but I'll still be taking my own meter readings to check.

I did have quite a useful conversation with someone at the energy company about this as I said I already had a smart meter so why was I still having to take readings?  Confirmed that the previous meter fitted was not compatible with the new company but assured me the one due to be fitted would be compatible if I changed supplier again in the future.  Fitting is free, so I've said go ahead.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: mountainpenguin on October 11, 2019, 09:59:53 am
For the most part they are a waste of space and some are a potential securoty nightmare ..
however when used correctly they do offer a way to drastically lower your electricity bill especially if your able to shape your demand.
We have an electric car, its ace and super cheap to run (£1.25 for 80 miles) its so cheap to run because we have an account with
octopus (shameless referral link for £50 off share.octopus.energy/jade-cat-643 (http://share.octopus.energy/jade-cat-643))
Our electricity is cheaper over night and they also have an agile tariff with API that tells you what the cost will be for each half hour slot for the next day yesterday this was down to 0.36p!

So if you can regulate your demand (battery / car / turning the washing on at a different time) a smart meter can save you a lot of money and help make best use of the renewable generation capacity.

Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Fulk on October 11, 2019, 10:20:30 am
Wow . . . I didn't realize that electric cars are (can be) so cheap to run.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: TheBitterEnd on October 11, 2019, 10:43:27 am
I haven't read all the responses (it it an internet forum afterall :-)  )  but in response to "best avoided for some reason" the reason was that the first generation would stop being "smart" if you changed suppliers, the second generation are common to all suppliers so no reason not to get one as long as it is second generation, your supplier will tell you what they are fitting if you ask.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Rob on October 11, 2019, 11:03:40 am
A 24h smart tariff which uses 100% renewable power is TIDE by www.greenenergyuk.com

Expensive option if you can't choose when things happen, but can be very cheap for things like EV cars  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Duncan Price on October 11, 2019, 11:05:39 am
I'm avoiding having a smart meter until I absolutely have to.  My primary concern is security due to the granularity of the data collection.  Someone could use the data to work out when you are in or out and break in.  Not that I live in a crime hotspot - the Neighbourhood Watch Alliance do a pretty good job of maintaining The Greater Good.

I was with British Gas a few years ago who were quite aggressive about installing them.  I tried giving them all the reasonable arguments about being an early adopter, problems with switching supplier, data capture etc. to no avail.  They escalated their pressure to having a senior manager call me. Eventually I told them that I had health concerns about the radiofrequency emanations from the kit, didn't have a mobile phone and wore a tinfoil hat all the time.This shut them up - and I blocked their number on my mobile.

In the long run it makes sense, but not yet.  A bit like electric cars.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: aricooperdavis on October 11, 2019, 11:56:32 am
Someone could use the data to work out when you are in or out and break in.

I suspect if you've got a criminal with the skills to break the encryption used to send data between your smart meter and the electricity company then they will be working on something rather less risky and rather more lucrative. And if you're concerned about it being a company employee then they'd be better off knocking on your door in their company uniform to see if you're in - nobody would question them.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Judi Durber on October 11, 2019, 12:40:54 pm
Quote
the second generation are common to all suppliers so no reason not to get one as long as it is second generation, your supplier will tell you what they are fitting if you ask.

Is there a list somewhere of Makes /Models that are 2nd generation?
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Ian Ball on October 11, 2019, 12:58:12 pm
The protocol is SMET1 and SMET2
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: JasonC on October 11, 2019, 02:10:19 pm

In the long run it makes sense, but not yet.  A bit like electric cars.

OT, I know, but maybe the long run has arrived:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/oct/05/electric-cars-used-deals-prices (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/oct/05/electric-cars-used-deals-prices)

(but not for Smart meters)
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: RobinGriffiths on October 12, 2019, 12:31:05 am
I wonder if they get to say 99.9% coverage, and their meter readers have been made redundant, whether it's worth coming after the remaining  0.1%?
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: cavingbiker on October 12, 2019, 09:31:37 am
From the New Oxford Dictionary of English:
"(of a device) capable of independent and seemingly intelligent action"

I fail to see ANY intelligent action from these devices.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Graigwen on October 12, 2019, 04:07:17 pm
From the New Oxford Dictionary of English:
"(of a device) capable of independent and seemingly intelligent action"

I fail to see ANY intelligent action from these devices.


Would this definition fit "smart" motorways?

.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Jenny P on October 13, 2019, 08:09:06 pm
Well, the chap came and fitted the Smart Meter last Friday morning as per promise - very friendly and helpful.  Explained it all and said I needn't do any more meter readings as the gas and electricity readings would now all be collected automatically. 

Today I received an email statement from the power company saying my monthly payment will be reduced by £18 per month from 1st. November as I seem to be paying too much and they quote my electricity meter as reading 00000 !!!  (Previously it was reading 28444 or something.)  However, the display unit on the kitchen window ledge is showing electricity being used and you can watch it go bright red when I switch on the kettle.  The power company's email also urges me to continue to read my meters manually, just to keep a check on things.

So, Monday morning I'll be out there to see what the electricity meter really reads - I suspect a duff unit or incorrect installation. 
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Ian Ball on October 13, 2019, 10:48:00 pm
The new meter has not been used before, it will start from 0.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Jenny P on October 14, 2019, 03:54:42 pm
Yup, I checked this morning and it had clearly started from 00000 on Friday as it's now reading something like 00026. 

I hadn't expected them to install a completely new electricity meter - the gas meter is still the old one and the display unit shows the consumption of both.  However, I'll still be checking the meters manually every month just to be on the safe side.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Stuart France on October 14, 2019, 11:05:53 pm
I burn old data after 7 years like tax returns and what they're based on.  So I've still got a spreadsheet showing my electricity bills, readings whether estimated by them or actual ones read by me, going back to 2012.

My average units per day between bills is remarkably constant - but it goes up a little if I have guests for a while and down a little if I take a long holiday abroad in the winter months.  Well I never.

I've also got copies of all my letters of complaint about electricity bills:  EON 1 letter, NPOWER 4 letters, current supplier SWALEC no letters (so far) at least personally.

Don't start me on the company's electricity bills.  I had 19 pages of them recently from SWALEC ranging in value from 50p up to nearly a grand for the same quarter, all estimates and they had the historic data too going back several years.  As they correct one mistake they introduce more.

At my age I do know the difference between a kettle and a light bulb.  Smart meters are nothing more than an indictment on the latterday teaching of physics in schools unless they mainly are for the electricity supplier's benefit.


Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: marysboy on October 22, 2019, 03:18:09 pm
we have gas and electric smart meters. they transmit the readings to supplier. we changed supplier and they still seem to work fine.

the in-house display can show instantaneous usage (kW or m3) and a chart of historical usage with changeable scale from hours to years (kWh or m3).

we are a low-usage household so we used to be overcharged for utilities, now with acurate readings this is better. (i.e. they dont have our money on free loan).

i like seeing what power is being drawn and finding out how much heat the various CH settings use. but this is mostly a novelty as we aim for low usage anyway

Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: yrammy on October 22, 2019, 04:39:18 pm
I decided to have one for electric and gas. But there is not enough room in the kitchen cupboard the remove the old gas meter and replace it with the new one. They keep sending engineers to do the replacement. I keep telling them there is not enough room.  In order to have one fitted I will need to rip out part of my kitchen units. 

They had one look at my electric meter and said they would not able able to do it as there was too much stuff in the way and could not get to the cupboard. I assume they meant that they were unable to get past one chair........
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Roger W on October 22, 2019, 05:41:36 pm

They had one look at my electric meter and said they would not able able to do it as there was too much stuff in the way and could not get to the cupboard. I assume they meant that they were unable to get past one chair........

Not cavers, obviously!
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Maj on October 22, 2019, 10:29:17 pm
............ I assume they meant that they were unable to get past one chair........


Quite understandable really.........
Not their job to move a chair  ::) .
Not had the training to move a chair  :coffee:.
Haven't got a piece of paper to say that they are competent to move a chair  :read: .
Not insured if they injure themselves or damage the chair if they move it :wall:.   
Probably Poets day, so were never going to do it anyway  :lol: :lol: :lol:

Maj.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on October 31, 2019, 02:39:51 pm
This popped up on AOL today:

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/10/30/energy-customers-warned-against-holding-on-to-a-relic-metersa/

Looks like they might eventually try to intimidate us into having a so called "smart" meter . . . .
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: 2xw on October 31, 2019, 02:52:54 pm
This popped up on AOL today:

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/10/30/energy-customers-warned-against-holding-on-to-a-relic-metersa/

Looks like they might eventually try to intimidate us into having a so called "smart" meter . . . .

I don't think that's intimidation, just a fair warning that if you choose to increase the costs of energy for those around you then that cost will be passed on to you.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: JasonC on October 31, 2019, 09:06:40 pm
Strangely, even though our electricity meter is so old that you have to read off dials that go alternately clockwise and anti-clockwise, we have never had the merest suggestion of changing to a more intellectual meter.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Laurie on November 01, 2019, 12:15:09 am
It's doing meter readers out of a job.  :(
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: kay on November 01, 2019, 09:54:55 am
This popped up on AOL today:

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2019/10/30/energy-customers-warned-against-holding-on-to-a-relic-metersa/

Looks like they might eventually try to intimidate us into having a so called "smart" meter . . . .

I don't think that's intimidation, just a fair warning that if you choose to increase the costs of energy for those around you then that cost will be passed on to you.

How does havine a non-smart meter increase the energy costs for those around you?
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: AdrianTurner on November 01, 2019, 10:15:29 am
Smart meters allow the energy companies to better anticipate demand, so that they only turn on power stations when they are actually needed, rather than having lots in reserve because they don't trust know how much energy is being used.

Sent from my moto g(6) play using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Fulk on November 01, 2019, 10:17:47 am
The more I hear about so-called ‘smart’ stuff, the more scope there seems to be for the ‘bad guys’ to take it over for their own purposes; I must admit, I don’t see how the bad guys could subvert an energy meter to their own malignant ends, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they found a way.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: 2xw on November 01, 2019, 12:07:09 pm
There's always potential for bad outcomes with IoT technology (see "smart" Yale locks locking people out their homes) but it's probably worth it.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on November 01, 2019, 05:47:02 pm
The more I hear about so-called ‘smart’ stuff, the more scope there seems to be for the ‘bad guys’ to take it over for their own purposes; I must admit, I don’t see how the bad guys could subvert an energy meter to their own malignant ends, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if they found a way.

Isn't it possible to use these data to get an idea of when you're in or out? Burglars might find that useful if they were able to hack in.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: aricooperdavis on November 01, 2019, 06:53:06 pm
I think that's being a bit paranoid.

I'm sure it's possible to break the encryption on these things (the same encryption used to protect your details when you bank online), but if you can break that encryption then you're not going to be burgling houses, you're going to be a) hired by the government to work for GCHQ b) killed by the government before you can use your skills or c) rob a bank. And if you take your mobile phone to work with you then you've already accepted the risk of someone being able to hack you and know where you are. And phone hacks are much more likely.

Also, your electricity use doesn't necessarily correlate very well with whether you're in the house. At 3am you're asleep in bed with no lights, no TV, no stereo, so you're probably minimum energy use. At 3pm you're probably at work, so no lights, no TV, no stereo, identical energy use...

Burglars would be better off looking to see if your car is in the drive, or looking to see if your lights are on, or knocking on your door and pretending to be a cold caller if you answer.

One final thing, from a cyber security perspective most "hacks" happen because people fall for phishing scams, or don't virus scan the film's they torrent, or use the same passwords for everything. If you want to reduce your vulnerability to cyber threats then that should be your first port of call.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on November 01, 2019, 07:18:35 pm
To be fair, Adrian Turner's point above is quite persuasive.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: aricooperdavis on November 01, 2019, 08:07:59 pm
It's the same with smart water meters - the potential that the data from them has is enormous; from helping to identity leaks from water distribution networks to preventing combined sewer overflows into receiving waters!  :)
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Fulk on November 01, 2019, 10:53:55 pm
Well, aricooperdavis, your attitude seems to me to be borderline complacent / smug. I know one young guy who works in IT (and makes a lot of money doing so) who was scammed; I’m sure he wouldn’t have fallen ‘for phishing scams, or don't virus scan the film's they torrent’ (whatever ‘don't virus scan the film's they torrent’ means).
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: JasonC on November 02, 2019, 07:59:59 am
Well, aricooperdavis, your attitude seems to me to be borderline complacent / smug.

Fulk, I think Ari's point was that there are easier and more profitable ways of scamming you than hacking your smart meter.

If there is a concern about your data being more accessible, I would guess it would be from the energy companies trying to 'monetise' your personal consumption data (in ways other than the laudable aims of efficient capacity planning).

I'm struggling to think how even that could be a risk - maybe they would start pestering people to install Economy 7 if they spotted that their overnight consumption was near zero?  Or 'we've noticed that your gas consumption is higher than average for similar properties - why not buy a new efficient boiler?'  That sort of thing.  Not the biggest of deals, arguably.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: aricooperdavis on November 02, 2019, 01:02:42 pm
Well, aricooperdavis, your attitude seems to me to be borderline complacent / smug.

I didn't mean to offend, and I'm sorry that it came across that way, I find it very hard to convey tone/attitude in textual communication. The tone I was going for was humour, but on re-reading I can see that I didn't get it right - sorry!

By no means am I saying that only idiots get hacked, nor that doing the things that I listed are idiotic - it's hard to force yourself to do things that have a high cost to convenience (such as have different passwords that you have to somehow remember or store). This is especially difficult when computers exist solely to make things more convenient for us, and when technology develops so fast that these threats evolve and change rapidly. I think I've done all of those things that I've listed. I've been hacked because I didn't update a wordpress implementation fast enough and someone exploited a known vulnerability.

My point was that we have to place our trust in the networked systems that we don't ourselves have control over in order to live in today's society, and that for the most part this isn't a big cyber security risk compared to the systems that we do operate ourselves. We're happy to accept these slight risks when the benefits are obvious; I use a mobile banking app so that I don't have to leave work early to get to the bank on time. And I store my credit card information with PayPal to facilitate buying things. But it's harder to accept those risks when the benefits on the surface don't seem to be worth it. I was trying to illustrate that the risk is very low in this case, and to put it into perspective using the risk that we adopt in other parts of our lives.

I feel positively about smart meters - they are the eyes of the supply industry. How can we expect electricity/water suppliers to operate effectively if they don't know how much they need to provide? Granted, they can make a good guess of that information from other sources like meters on trunk mains, but the improvement in resolution is like being short sighted and wearing glasses - it can hugely improve their performance.

I want to reiterate that I didn't mean to sound smug or patronising, that was my error, and I apologise to anyone who I offended.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: aricooperdavis on November 02, 2019, 01:07:51 pm
If there is a concern about your data being more accessible, I would guess it would be from the energy companies trying to 'monetise' your personal consumption data (in ways other than the laudable aims of efficient capacity planning).

That's a use that I hadn't considered, and I suspect it's not unlikely in the future. We're becoming very apathetic about the monetisation of our personal data (another discussion entirely I think), and it's hard to know where people will draw the line. I can't imagine many people would care enough to read the small print on their electricity contract - I certainly don't!
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Fulk on November 02, 2019, 03:52:32 pm
Thanks for clarifying things, aricd
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Pitlamp on November 02, 2019, 06:31:43 pm
Your remarks didn't read in any way offensive to me at least, Ari Cooper-Davies.
In fact, thanks for some interesting and useful comments.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: maxb727 on November 04, 2019, 12:26:08 pm
Something I saw today at work, kind of shows a bit about smart meters too.

https://youtu.be/6S3mCgahOlc



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Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Ian Ball on November 04, 2019, 02:28:07 pm
Thank you!
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: kay on November 06, 2019, 06:34:59 am
OK, dumb question time. The first of those videos is talking about the increase in often small renewal energy supplies, and goes on to talk about limiting the times at which energy can be exported to the network - presumably to the times of high demand. I can see some logic in that, in that you don't have to construct a means of storing surplus energy. But the final punchline is that this will enable us to increase the use of renewable energy, and I don't quite follow that step.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: mountainpenguin on November 06, 2019, 09:43:36 am
at the moment renewables or other generation capacity may be not allowed on the network due to the networks inability to cope with peak production.
ensuring that renewables are controllable means you can over provision and have closer to full coverage.
Title: Re: Electricity "smart" meters
Post by: Robert Scott on November 06, 2019, 08:28:46 pm
Sorry to digress from smart meters, but about "renewables"
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/20/orkney-northern-powerhouse-electricity-wind-waves-surplus-power-hydrogen-fuel-cell?CMP=share_btn_link (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jan/20/orkney-northern-powerhouse-electricity-wind-waves-surplus-power-hydrogen-fuel-cell?CMP=share_btn_link)

and not worrying about overloading the input to the National Grid by using that excess energy to provide energy stores.