UK Caving

OTHER STUFF => Idle Chat => Topic started by: Mrs Trellis on December 22, 2020, 02:59:39 pm

Title: Brexit
Post by: Mrs Trellis on December 22, 2020, 02:59:39 pm

Global Moderator Comment New Topic split from "The Eyam Spirit" https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27329.0

Re Brexit - we have to do it because it was put to a free vote and "won".

The timing is bad because remainiacs in both Houses and their allies in the Civil Service adopted the Trumpian policy of refusing to accept the democratic mandate and tried to subvert it in every way. Those who repeatedly voted against May's proposals have brought about the current sad state of affairs and have only themselves to blame.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 22, 2020, 03:04:37 pm
An interesting reimagining of recent history

Quote
Those who repeatedly voted against May's proposals have brought about the current sad state of affairs and have only themselves to blame

Those voting against May's 'deal' included most of the current cabinet and the membership of the ERG.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 22, 2020, 04:03:11 pm
An interesting reimagining of recent history

Quote
Those who repeatedly voted against May's proposals have brought about the current sad state of affairs and have only themselves to blame

Those voting against May's 'deal' included most of the current cabinet and the membership of the ERG.
Indeed. And of course, a no-deal Brexit is what many of them were after in the first place,  and unlike us poor ordinary suckers, stand to benefit financially from their overseas investments in that event.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mrs Trellis on December 22, 2020, 04:17:56 pm
The number of remainiac MP's who voted against May vastly outnumbered the Brexiteers. It was transparently obvious that the remainiacs used any tool available to stop the mandate to leave the EU.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: PeteHall on December 22, 2020, 04:31:56 pm
...remainiacs in both Houses and their allies in the Civil Service adopted the Trumpian policy of refusing to accept the democratic mandate...

An obvious comparison and one that I am surprised I have not heard previously, though I doubt either will enjoy being compared to the other! Combine this with the increasing trend of no-platforming anyone who disagrees with those who shout loudest and you wonder if democracy has had its time in the west...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 22, 2020, 04:49:28 pm
Quote
The number of remainiac MP's who voted against May vastly outnumbered the Brexiteers. It was transparently obvious that the remainiacs used any tool available to stop the mandate to leave the EU.

Ignoring the infantile name calling,  history is still being rewritten.  In the final vote for May's deal would have passed if the ERG members and DUP who can hardly be accused of supporting the EU, had voted for it. Leave supporters voting against May's deal led to this situation.

And if the current government which can hardly be accused of supporting remain had any sense of responsibility for the UK, it could have extended the transition period earlier this year, but refused to, despite many warnings that winter would see a second wave. 

Blaming the people who advised against an action for the problems caused by that action seems to be a very popular at the moment. Strangely those people who promote "personal responsibility".
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mrs Trellis on December 22, 2020, 04:55:33 pm
The current govt. was elected with a large majority on the basis of "get Brexit done". The voters were obviously totally fed up with the actions of the remainiacs who showed the same respect for democracy that Trump and his supporters did and still do.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 22, 2020, 05:02:00 pm
the Brexit supporters blatantly lied to the electorate, stirred up xenophobia, and acted illegally in obtaining their Brexit objective, so I hardly think us who appreciated what a disaster this would create can be compared to Trump's current insanity.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 22, 2020, 05:09:34 pm
Quote
The current govt. was elected with a large majority on the basis of "get Brexit done". The voters were obviously totally fed up with the actions of the remainiacs who showed the same respect for democracy that Trump and his supporters did and still do.

Still the childish insults to avoid admitting that the current problems can be laid at the feet of the current government.

And appealing to 'The Voters' ignores the fact that the majority of the UK population now believes it was a mistake to leave the EU. I expect the 'Will of the People' to be invoked next.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 22, 2020, 05:16:20 pm
I don’t think it was really a vote on the EU, but on “London” and life in general. The UK has it’s own problems to sort out. Maybe it is time to focus on that. We have to spend trillions on rebuilding energy and transport for starters.

If you think we have issues, you should try France. Figaro today said that a quarter of those in the Ille de France were the victims of assault or crime last year. That’s millions of people. One reason a lot of French expats dismiss Paris as a major financial centre is because they say it is unliveable. And that’s before you get people started on the Énarque. “Emily in Paris” is not reality.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Alex on December 22, 2020, 05:29:26 pm
Having once driven near Paris, I can agree with that. It looked like Detroit after the car industry moved out. Did not seem to be a good place. Still there are plenty of other place the new centre of Europe can go, now we have given it up (remind me why we did that by the way?) Something to do with sovereignty (which we had already) and "dirty" foreigners or something like that.

Just what the government wants though, a population divided is a population controlled, race to the bottom, with a dismal economy as the excuse.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Duck ditch on December 22, 2020, 06:06:15 pm
Good grief.  I’ve been called a remoaner, project fear,remainiac and a Union Jack hater.  Now I’m told I follow the politics of trump and this mess is my fault.
Staggering.
We have left one of the most powerful union of countries in the world to go alone.  No country goes alone. There trading blocks all over the world, we chose to leave one of the best.
4 years and 3 Tory leaders and no deal is pathetic.  Raab didn’t even know Dover was important.
As for the Eyam Spirit.  If 10% of the population can’t be bothered then it’s herd immunity.  Who’s says that works?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: alastairgott on December 22, 2020, 06:33:17 pm
“A witch, a witch!”
“How do we know she’s a witch?”
“She looks like one” ;)

Good grief.  I’ve been called a remoaner, project fear,remainiac and a Union Jack hater.  Now I’m told I follow the politics of trump and this mess is my fault.
Staggering.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 22, 2020, 06:45:16 pm
Good grief.  I’ve been called a remoaner, project fear,remainiac and a Union Jack hater.  Now I’m told I follow the politics of trump and this mess is my fault.
Staggering.
We have left one of the most powerful union of countries in the world to go alone.  No country goes alone. There trading blocks all over the world, we chose to leave one of the best.
4 years and 3 Tory leaders and no deal is pathetic.  Raab didn’t even know Dover was important.
As for the Eyam Spirit.  If 10% of the population can’t be bothered then it’s herd immunity.  Who’s says that works?

The sniffy behaviour in Europe is because we are not remotely leaving. If we were being towed off into the sunset, then that would be what it is. But we are not, we are plonked in NW Europe, and there is serious angst that we are going to get a free ride. And they are probably right. We already got one from playing off Sterling against the Euro, we are shielded from a lot of immigration pressure and we now cease to directly subsidise southern and eastern Europe.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: 2xw on December 22, 2020, 07:14:19 pm
a Union Jack hater

To be fair, there are better flags. Personally I prefer the Northumbrian one.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 22, 2020, 08:02:31 pm
There trading blocks all over the world, we chose to leave one of the best.

Eh? You are incorrect on two counts:
1. It is not a trading block, it is a pathway to a United States of Europe. If they stopped at a trading bloc, that would be fine. But the USE is never going to work! If Scotland and Wales are both moving towards independence, after hundreds of years union, I don't see how we are going to jump into bed with Greece.
2. It is the most bureaucratic burdensome cancer of an organisation that is bleeding the economies dry. It needs scaling back, and a good kick in the balls like Brexit is what it needs. If you were a one-man band trying to bring a product to market, you would understand what a disincentive to business the EU is.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Robert Scott on December 22, 2020, 08:34:02 pm
Am I the only one who finds that pejorative terms like "remainiac" diminishes any argument or discussion  that contains them?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 22, 2020, 08:58:16 pm
Am I the only one who finds that pejorative terms like "remainiac" diminishes any argument or discussion  that contains them?

Unfortunately both viewpoints diminish the argument with pejoratives. I suspect being of the 'leave' persuasion opens one up to more opprobrium / accusations of all sorts of nonsense than 'remain'

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on December 22, 2020, 08:59:10 pm
Am I the only one who finds that pejorative terms like "remainiac" diminishes any argument or discussion  that contains them?
No your not, but the insults are probably the result of frustration at not having a convincing argument - and, of course, the very real fear that, when all the problems become realities, this government will, of course, blame the very people who voted for Brexit in the first place.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 22, 2020, 09:01:10 pm
Prominent Brexit backer, Tory funder and Boris' chum Peter Cruddas to be made a Lord - in defiance of advice by the Lord's Appointment Commission. So maybe Brexit does have it's benefits?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: martinb on December 22, 2020, 09:39:23 pm
Just read this thread with interest, especially the comments regarding Paris above.

After the fraudulent referendum, I turned to my good lady and said that we had better get our act together before Brexit happened.

We had always had intentions of retiring to France, specifically Normandie, when we turned 60. However, Brexit moved the timescale forward somewhat.
We looked at many houses, and finally made the move in Feb 2018. It has been the best thing we have ever done.
We run a gite, I have a gardening business and we breed the occaisional litter of dachshund puppies.

We are not well off, although we have saving from the UK we have bought over here, but, overall, we are happy.

France is not as cheap as it used to be, but the laid back way of life, the vast country of different facets, and a certain lack of borders between countries are benefits.

When I look at the news and see the utter shitshow that the UK Government are making of both Brexit and Covid, I honestly wonder what the fuck people were thinking when they voted in the blond bullshitter.

In 2015, Cameron said, Vote Tory or get chaos with Ed Milliband.

Well, I think I would have preferred chaos with Ed Milliband.

France isn't perfect, no country is. But when I go to Paris - 3 times this year and we've also been to Strasbourg and Perpignan this year, you go through poor places, but you also meet people who are genuine and friendly.

What France doesn't have are the landed gentry like Jacob Rees-Smug et al, who are only out to rip off Joe Public and bomb the economy and pound to make a quick buck.

Remember that France got rid of its monarchy a few centuries ago by inventive means.

The UK government by its definition is supposed to serve the people and do what is right for the country, this version of the Conservatives is turning the UK into a banana republic, awarding dodgy contracts to mates and supporters, promoting undeserving brexit supporters to the HoL, tanking the econmy and putting peoples health and wellbeing on the line.

What do ordinary people do? Feck all.

In France, there would be hundreds and thousands of protesters on the streets, riots etc. But the ordinary British mana and woman won't lift a finger until it directly affects them, when they can't get their pies, or Watneys red barrel.

Woe betide the Uk if there is no-deal, if Johnson makes a stand about the fishing (0.02% of UK GDP).
The moment the UK Navy stop a french fishing boat, ports will be blocked, trains stopped and ATC will stop planes, it'll make the last couple of days on Plague Island seem like a picnic.

Meanwhile, Happy Christmas, Joyeux Noel from Normandie, France!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on December 22, 2020, 10:10:24 pm
Brits have always just done their own thing, whatever everyone else is doing - whether that be other governments or our own...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fulk on December 22, 2020, 10:39:39 pm
Well, I voted ‘remain’ because I thought that to leave the EU would be a disaster . . . but not in my worst nightmares did I consider that it would turn out to be such a fucked-up abysmal unmitigated disaster as it’s shaping up to be under the blond buffoon and the buffoonettes.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 22, 2020, 11:02:05 pm
I realise the Guardian and others swim in a sea of misery, but it really isn’t reality. The virus is reality and a pretty good job has been done in various parts of the world to crash develop a vaccine in the nick of time, including in the UK. The Oxford vaccine will likely be the bedrock of the global response and the UK is giving it away for free. Huge numbers of lives will be saved.

People are drowning with their kids in the channel trying to get to England from France, and not the other way at all. A sense of perspective is required as to how terrible peoples lives are in England. It’s grotesque to assert it and it annoys me having lived and worked in many places where shit happens. We are extremely privileged in the main.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 23, 2020, 05:34:22 am
I do agree we've won the jackpot in the great lottery of life by being born in the UK, so all the more reason to rail against the terrible, disgraceful way it's being destroyed by the rich and powerful in their grovelling rush to line their own pockets.

It's only in the dominant Tory-controlled media that you get told how we're approaching the sunny uplands, a message that gets sucked up by those who can't be bothered to stretch their intellects to consider other news sources.

The Conservatives like to promote themselves as the party for business, but they're no such thing - they're the party of rich investors and the privileged. I do wonder how anyone can believe that the likes of Rees- Mogg, Johnson and the rest of their Eton crew can have the interests of us ordinary folk at heart, or any degree of empathy.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on December 23, 2020, 06:47:42 am
We may complain about how much MPs get paid, but this is what happens when it's not competitive with leading CEOs - only those rich enough not to care will take up top Tory places...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Duck ditch on December 23, 2020, 07:06:46 am
Lol it is a pathway to a United States of Europe.   Sounds like project fear.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: oldfart on December 23, 2020, 08:49:04 am
The trouble with Europe Is that the beer is shite. Apart from Belgium, Germany, Checho....
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 23, 2020, 08:58:49 am
I do agree we've won the jackpot in the great lottery of life by being born in the UK, so all the more reason to rail against the terrible, disgraceful way it's being destroyed by the rich and powerful in their grovelling rush to line their own pockets.

It's only in the dominant Tory-controlled media that you get told how we're approaching the sunny uplands, a message that gets sucked up by those who can't be bothered to stretch their intellects to consider other news sources.

The Conservatives like to promote themselves as the party for business, but they're no such thing - they're the party of rich investors and the privileged. I do wonder how anyone can believe that the likes of Rees- Mogg, Johnson and the rest of their Eton crew can have the interests of us ordinary folk at heart, or any degree of empathy.

If a Labour government had done what has been done in the last year or two they would have been labelled as reckless loony Trots. The government has the worlds fleet of Chinooks and is shovelling crisp notes out of the back doors onto the population. And it was doing this before the virus came to be honest. Boris is not a hair shirt kind of guy. We are up to nearly a trillion in QE. My cousin at the BoE wrote the theory on QE and I discern significant shiftiness when you mention “printing money”.

Ao yes, this government may well be storing up trouble, but in a whole new way that involves jam now rather than later.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 23, 2020, 08:59:59 am
Lol it is a pathway to a United States of Europe.   Sounds like project fear.

Is this project fear?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7230/

Or just some inconvenient truth?

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: crickleymal on December 23, 2020, 09:09:04 am
Lol it is a pathway to a United States of Europe.   Sounds like project fear.

Is this project fear?
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7230/

Or just some inconvenient truth?

Chris.
Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 23, 2020, 09:14:14 am
I voted Remain because I have always believed in the Pitt maxim that we need to be in Europe in order to ruin it as a concept. There is a reason we are la perfide Albion. It’s all true.

So at the moment there is complete confusion in France as to whether Brexit is an act of madness or an insanely Machiavellian plot to undermine France’s manifest destiny.

Hence all this “level playing field” BS. It’s driven by enormous suspicion as to what the cunning plan really is. I tend to the Great Cock Up Theory myself, but such things have a habit of generating unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ed on December 23, 2020, 10:45:44 am
a Union Jack hater

To be fair, there are better flags. Personally I prefer the Northumbrian one.

Been saying the same for years --- about time to bring back the Old Country......
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mrs Trellis on December 23, 2020, 10:59:14 am
I think the last two attempts at a united Europe led by Germany turned out badly for the continent.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aricooperdavis on December 23, 2020, 11:17:34 am
I think the last two attempts at a united Europe led by Germany turned out badly for the continent.

Reductio ad Hitlerum (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum)?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mark Wright on December 23, 2020, 11:23:49 am

2. It is the most bureaucratic burdensome cancer of an organisation that is bleeding the economies dry. It needs scaling back, and a good kick in the balls like Brexit is what it needs. If you were a one-man band trying to bring a product to market, you would understand what a disincentive to business the EU is.

Chris.

I don’t recognise any of the above.

Over the past 10 years I’ve developed a ‘one-man band’ business, selling goods and services almost exclusively on the EU mainland and have found the bureaucracy to be pretty much non existent. The only paperwork I have to fill in is an EU Sales list every 3 months. It takes about 2 minutes. It’s well worth the small amount of effort as it saves me having to pay 20% Vat on my EU imports. Having to pay it in January could easily cripple many small company cash flows who won’t be able to reclaim it for at least 3 months.

I also export some goods and services outside of the EU. Now that is a ‘bureaucratic burdensome cancer’ that is a real disincentive to doing business with the rest of the world, particularly on WTO terms. It will also likely put the price of our caving gear up by about 10%, and that’s before the £ probably crashes by 10% in 8 days time.

Maybe your negative experience of the bureaucracy of doing business as a member of the EU was trying to bring the wrong product to market?

Being fully out of the Brexit transition period without a free trade deal will have only negative effects on my business which won’t be realised by the treasury until December 21 when no Corporation Tax will be due. For businesses who have made significant losses over the past year. The treasury will also likely be significantly hit until at least the end of 2023.

Mark



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on December 23, 2020, 11:25:30 am
Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.

Me too. It's got to be better than Vulgaria and it's bloody 'sovereignty'. Though be be fair, most seem to be in uniform in the Federation. Though to be fair again, most are pretty buff - in the future at least.

Maybe that's the problem...?  :halo:

Also, with reference to Mark's post above - what happens with CE marks after Brexit? Will PPE require a BS kite-mark?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brains on December 23, 2020, 11:30:53 am
We have no choice over geography.
Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.
Sovereignty was always a myth to rally the gullible - we had it already, it never went away.
Wanting to sell sub standard sweat shop goods into a bloc that puts workers rights, citizens rights, high on the agenda is not an option. Quality costs, hence the level playing field trope.
The USE? Sounds like a far right skeleton being jangled in the closet, whats next, Turkey to join the EU? £350m for the NHS?
The ADVISORY referendum was one by cheating, and at judicial review it was stated that had it been binding, it would need to be set aside.
Oven ready deal, considerable upside, sunlit uplands? Bollocks from the corrupt paying BILLIONS to their mates on bad deals and setting up disaster capitalists to mint a fortune. Need some money laundering at a low cost? Use London!
Utter shit show, rescind it at once / rejoin ASAP
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mrs Trellis on December 23, 2020, 12:04:00 pm
Does anyone think that if Remain had won we'd still be discussing Brexit? The truth is that Remain ignored the country at large and believed what the Westminster bubble told them. Anyway you have to credit the remainiacs - they may last longer than Trump and his supporters , one or two of whom have accepted he lost however grudgingly.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 23, 2020, 12:05:52 pm
We will never rejoin, the hurdles are huge. The first one will be anyone believing we won’t do it it again, and that means the Tories promising not to do it again, whether they are in power or not at the time. Good luck with that.

We will make out like the Swiss, because is there any alternative?. Who knows where that ends up.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on December 23, 2020, 12:17:30 pm
One of my friends in France has been training for the last two years to be a chef, with a view to moving back to the UK to work. Now she's qualified and already has a job there, she's thinking that it may not be worthwhile coming over here any longer. Great - I was hoping to work with her myself on other projects. But that in a microcosm is what's going on. All that freedom to travel and work evaporating overnight. After over four years of listening to Brexit promotions, not one has ever convinced me of its value, ever. That's a lot of argument, and I'm not stupid. And I'm not a remainiac either, whatever that means. I don't listen to the westminster bubble, I use common sense.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brains on December 23, 2020, 01:43:36 pm
Something about turkeys and christmas? Who would want to agree with Churchill that a united Europe is a desirable thing?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 23, 2020, 01:45:08 pm
Remember, almost half the country didn't want the disaster which is about to unfold. What's been happening at Dover this week gives a fair indication of the sort of things we have to look forward to soon. Unless those involved finally get their backsides into gear and sort out the deal we were promised.

Many people are still very unhappy that the close referendum outcome was the result of lies. Remember the Boris Bus?

And another thing; in one breath Boris says he's concerned about carbon dioxide emissions. In another breath he orders a huge diesel-guzzling vehicle to do thousands of unnecessary miles. Fine example to the people (not).

I noticed on't interweb the other day a comment which  defined a "Remainer" as someone who can see beyond the end of their nose. Given the threat from slightly further east and the fact that there's never been a more important time for us Europeans to be united, it struck me as rather appropriate.

Anyway, never mind that for now; I hope all forum readers have a very happy Christmas.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mrs Trellis on December 23, 2020, 01:47:12 pm
It's evidently possible to train as a chef in the UK which of course benefits the UK econonomy. One of the many reasons voters in the ex Labour voting areas named the "red wall" voted for both Brexit and the Tories in some numbers is the principle of free movement and the arrival of unwanted immigrants with a different language and culture.

The Remain campaign was both smug and condescending - typically North London based. 

If there is an attempt to rejoin I hope they will have a referendum again, unlike before we joined.

As for Churchill's idea - the voters didn't like that either and got rid of him before the war was over.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 23, 2020, 01:56:58 pm
Well Cameron got us an exemption from it so if you object to that then you've got no worries. Personally I don't have a problem with it. But then I like Star Trek with its Federation.

That is obviously a nonsense. If you are on a boat that is going to a particular destination, you can lie about it, but it's still going there. If you don't want to go there, you have to get off the boat.

We have got off.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 23, 2020, 01:58:31 pm
Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 23, 2020, 02:04:15 pm
Ah "remainiacs", the "London bubble",  what childish and inaccurate insult can you use next to hide your absence of a case. How about "liberal elite". Or how about engaging with the facts.

Brexit was a project of the "elite", look at the people in power, public school, wealthy families, not a single one of them represent the majority of the country.  And comparing people to Trump and his supporters where the resemblance is rather the other way around. Brexit is a Trumpian project.

Did you not note that the only world leaders that welcomed brexit were people like Trump and Putin. And in the EU, supported by the likes of Marine Le Pen. and Golden Dawn (frequently labelled as neo-nazi - apologies to Mr Godwin). Does it not worry you at all that Brexit was supported and praised by enemies of the UK and of democracy in general? 

Indeed our PM and others have had multiple meetings with one S Bannon, a key trump ally.

Brexit has reduced the UK to an international joke. The current government is following Trump's example, by lying in industrial quantities, attacking the courts, reducing parliamentary oversight, rewarding party donors and overriding any checks intended to prevent corruption.  The UK's democracy is dying, killed by 'taking back control'.  Indeed we have lost control. Lost control of our own country and lost international influence.

A former editor of the Sun has called for war against France today. The current Home Secretary suggested starving the Irish as a negotiating tactic, and this week endangered an ongoing man-slaughter trial. The Attorney General approved legislation that would have broken international law if enacted, and recently suggested that judges should ignore sentencing guidelines created by parliament. The Prime Minister conspired to have a journalist assaulted. Are these people who's values you share?  Because these are the people who you have put in control. Populists of the worst sort. I am ashamed of this country.






 


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brains on December 23, 2020, 02:06:19 pm
Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.
Yes we did, via our democratically elected MEPs and other elected representatives at various summits. Being one voice of many means a compromise has to be made and agreements found. The UK trying to bully the EU was a ridiculous and petulant standpoint. The EU is Democratic for all its members, not just the gammon in the UK...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Andy Farrant on December 23, 2020, 02:13:24 pm
The whole Brexit charade is so sad, especially as the whole argument was based on so many false premises, crass slogans and outright lies, just so some right wing politicians can say they reclaimed 'sovereignty'.  For what? I now have less freedom and my kids fewer opportunities, but yay, I have a blue passport and we can catch our 'own' fish... What is 'sovereignty' anyway in this era of globalisation and interlinked networks? In my experience it is always better to work collaboratively than stand alone; same goes for nation states. And by working to a set of common standards, we all benefit. Getting off the boat doesn't help us in the slightest. Most people now think Brexit was a bad idea, and sadly they are being proved right.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brains on December 23, 2020, 02:34:13 pm
Politically, outside we have NO voice. Inside we have one.

My arse did we have one! Cameron tried for his red lines, which were summarily rejected! They called our bluff (ably demonstrating that a nation is too small to have any say in the EU), they lost.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ed on December 23, 2020, 02:58:45 pm
Does anyone think that if Remain had won we'd still be discussing Brexit? The truth is that Remain ignored the country at large and believed what the Westminster bubble told them. Anyway you have to credit the remainiacs - they may last longer than Trump and his supporters , one or two of whom have accepted he lost however grudgingly.

Probably, as a group of wealth anti -EU folk have been moaning and bitching for 40 years since the previous referendum.
   Then they saw the moves to shut down tax dodging, money laundering about to be brought in by the EU and they finally  flipped out
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Duck ditch on December 23, 2020, 03:23:11 pm
Oh no.  I’m not clicking on anymore links on this forum. ;D
I’ve done it twice already.  The first time I had to reset my history etc because I got bombarded with conspiracy theories on the origins of coronavirus and its manipulations by bill gates.  The second time I got bombarded by sites inviting me on pheasants shoots by people who said pheasant shooting is good for the environment.  By researchers equivalent to benson and hedges saying smoking doesn’t cause cancer or Exxon saying there is no such thing as global warming.
I’m not doing it again  ;D.  I shall have to wait for the United States of Europe. Does it include Turkey joining the eu too.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: droid on December 23, 2020, 03:40:01 pm
Interesting that the Brexit argument can now be simplified to 'I'm right, you're wrong,, f**k off!'

If you have a decent pension, your own house and a bit in the bank, these times are quite interesting. For anyone else they must be pretty scary.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 23, 2020, 04:02:26 pm
This (which appeared an hour ago) makes for interesting reading:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-55416939

If Brexit turns out to be as awful as many people believe it will be, the idea of rejoining probably will surface.

If Johnson's lot doesn't come up with a deal, a great many people are going to feel very badly let down.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 23, 2020, 05:09:05 pm
A deal will likely be announced today. There will be some screaming about it, then we can chunter on with modifying it for the next 50 odd years.

It is going to be swings and roundabouts, and it will take a decade at least to tell the difference. Given our geographical position we will always get benefit from the proximity of the EU. But (as with the Euro) some benefits from being able to play off it.

As long as we keep buying shiny Audis I imagine all will be happy.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian Ball on December 23, 2020, 10:23:27 pm
Conservatives, here to help those who can help themselves.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 23, 2020, 11:46:21 pm
Looks like the highways of Kent may not end up being lined with bottles of 'truckers cider' after all. Be interesting to see how the Tory nutjobs like Mark Francois (oh the irony of the surname) welcome the deal.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on December 24, 2020, 07:16:24 am
I strongly suspect that this has been played out right up to the wire, with the threat of "no deal" looming, so that most people will be relieved to get any deal whatsoever.

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 24, 2020, 09:43:09 am
I strongly suspect that this has been played out right up to the wire, with the threat of "no deal" looming, so that most people will be relieved to get any deal whatsoever.

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.

We had a coalition from 2010 to 2015, and vast numbers of people dedicated themselves to trying to make it fail. They succeeded to the point of making it pretty much impossible any time in the foreseeable future. Having a poison pill like the SNP who are disinterested in Uk-wide issues pretty much seals the deal.

There are a number of European countries who struggle badly with PR. And in some countries has given oxygen to some quite extreme groups who then build on it. You can’t set significant thresholds because in the UK that could leave nationalists with zero seats (even if you thought that was a good outcome). I am happy that UKIP never got the 30-50 seats they would have under PR, meanie that I am. And I also am really quite sniffy about a party list system. And it would be the end of independents, of which there are a few, particularly in Wales.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on December 24, 2020, 01:02:13 pm
We had a coalition from 2010 to 2015, and vast numbers of people dedicated themselves to trying to make it fail.

The 2010 coalition would have been more effective if the liberals had had the guts to either stick to their principles or walk away. As it was it was more a conservative government propped up by libs - hardly a good example of politicians working together. And the PR referendum offered by Cameron was based on the alternative vote system, a system little used elsewhere and very unpopular with either the libs or the tories - i.e. a referendum designed to fail, which it did.

Thought out correctly, PR should give voters more incentive to use their votes, meaning more voters and thus more democratic - even if it does let in MPs for parties you might not like. FPTP is way down on anybody's scale of democratic frameworks - but it's very reassuring for minority parties who have spent many years re-working the constituancy boundaries to their own advantage.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 24, 2020, 06:07:49 pm
Looks like they have managed to sort a deal out today after all.
One less worry in what has been a truly grim year. Bring on 2021.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 25, 2020, 01:16:48 am
Four and a half years to get to a less favourable deal than the one we had, and judging by the noise on the DM website doesn't even satisfy the diehard Brexiters. And it means, that unless I make it rich in the next 10 years I'm unlikely to be able to retire to France.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 25, 2020, 09:03:23 am
It's never going to satisfy the diehards, but it might well be a pragmatic least worst solution.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: StealthYak on December 25, 2020, 09:20:15 am
When you spend 4 years running the clock down because you know from the start that you can never deliver what you persuaded people to vote for all that is left is the choice between a very crap deal and an even worse no deal.  Is that what you mean by a pragmatic choice ?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 25, 2020, 10:24:19 am
As someone who always believed, on balance, that it would have been better to have stayed in, yesterday's news was far less bad than it could have been. But it's already history and there's nothing we can do now except pull together as a nation, look forwards rather than backwards -  and make the best of it.

Hey, it'll be 2021 soon!  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 25, 2020, 11:00:00 am
When you spend 4 years running the clock down because you know from the start that you can never deliver what you persuaded people to vote for all that is left is the choice between a very crap deal and an even worse no deal.  Is that what you mean by a pragmatic choice ?

I told people before the referendum it was a choice being in the EU and what we have now, because there is no other logical outcome. All other outcomes are worse than being in the EU with no possibility of compensation elsewhere. It was never the situation that the UK got to choose some optimal state, there is another party with it’s own interests. And the UK is a threat given it’s size, we are not Iceland. So we are exactly where I thought we would end up.

I would point out that the large number of theoretical estimates used by the OBR on Brexit productivity impact are still way smaller than the gap that existed already in 2015 between the UK and most of NW Europe. That would be a good place to start thinking about stuff. If you have ever worked in Germany or the Netherlands you will be painfully aware of the embarrassing differences in efficiency. Which BTW extends to things like healthcare too.

People need to let go of old thinking and comfortable ways and take a risk. It’s not been happening enough. People are obsessed with dividing up what they think is a big pie and not anywhere near enough on making it bigger. To do that in a world where the return from manual labour is pitiful means upping overall skill levels to attract investment. Nearly 40% of kids still leave year 11 without grade 4 in maths and English. It’s appalling, and a lot of it is down to a lack of urgency or giving a shit, not time spent in class (11 years of education and half can’t do long multiplication properly). We spend more on education per child than France and Germany with a poorer outcome. It can’t go on like this if people want this standard of living.

Luckily it seems 600,000 HK Chinese are in the post. That should inject some urgency.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 25, 2020, 12:11:22 pm
Quote
there's nothing we can do now except pull together as a nation, look forwards rather than backwards

No.  I am not helping the people who I have no values in common with, I am not a collaborator. They have removed rights from me and my wider family. Those people are the ones who want to take us backwards, and further remove my rights. I am never working with the people who were quite happy for me to be jailed for existing, and would like those days to return. I am not supporting a country run by a party that is little short of the BNP.

Appeasement never works.

We have a government that relies on an uneducated and uninformed population to stay in power, we have a culture where ignorance is celebrated, where science and engineering are seen as something for the lower ranks. This isn't a moment where the country is moving forwards, we have made the country much less attractive to investors, to skilled people who can expect to face more hostility. We have hobbled our industry with more red tape than ever, with much of beyond our control.

The UK is a much poorer, nastier place and the damage will take decades to undo. There is nothing to look forward to.



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fulk on December 25, 2020, 12:58:34 pm
What do you expect from a prime minister who joined the Bullingdon Club 'when he was up at Oxford'?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on December 25, 2020, 01:43:23 pm
aardgoose pretty much saved me the typing. I look forward to the day when we can use Johnson as a giant pink piñata - metaphorically of course ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KrXfJzJlXk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KrXfJzJlXk)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 25, 2020, 01:45:02 pm
In such situations, one is reminded of the words that Sinead O'Connor famously began one of her songs:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fulk on December 25, 2020, 02:45:44 pm
 You know, Pitlamp, I’ve never really ‘got’ this:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

Why should one go round changing things just because one can?

Perhaps what she should have said was:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can IF THEY NEED CHANGING,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 25, 2020, 03:12:05 pm
that is more inline with the quote's original formulation. Though it isn't Ms O'Connor's fault.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer)

Although there is a great difference between accepting this countries descent into a Randian hellhole and actively encouraging it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fulk on December 25, 2020, 04:07:30 pm
Thanks aardgoose.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: royfellows on December 25, 2020, 08:20:32 pm
Regardless of me regarding this whole thread as a waste of server space, I would like to make a few points.

The outcome of elections and referenda is decided by what is usually known as the “silent majority”
They are called this because (a) They are silent. (b) They form the majority.

To expand the arguments, (a) is best described in terms of what they don’t do. I mean that they don’t wage keyboard battle on social media, march through the streets, wave placards, or attempt to make political points on caving website forums.
(b) Is simple in that as already stated they decide the outcome of elections and referendums. And as such, you never really know what they are thinking until the results are declared.

Now the thing to realise is that regardless of some people banging away at all of the various activities described above in (a), it doesn’t make a blinding bit of difference to (b).
Dead simple

Have good Christmas, what’s left of it, and hopefully a better New year.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on December 25, 2020, 08:41:44 pm

Let's hope that enough of us see through this pantomime and realise that it is high time the UK adopted the kind of democracy that almost every other country on the planet uses, based upon PR. Then all our votes might count, and maybe,just maybe, our politicians will take their jobs seriously and work together.
Circa 89 countries (although this includes places like Russia that are barely democracies) out of 197 (or so), so less than half...

& on the subject of serenity, it's assumed you don't want to mess with stuff that you don't think should be changed!
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 25, 2020, 09:56:34 pm
The description of the 'silent majority' is ahistorical. in that they are

a) rarely silent.
b) not a majority.

The term is used purely to foster a sense of victimhood in a group who's views are often already given greater weight than their number merit and seeks to silence any other opinions, for example the Goebbels inspired term 'The Will of the People' used to invalidate any dissent.

The majority gained in the referendum wasn't a single group.  Multiple groups sometimes with mutually exclusive views were targeted with falsehoods, that had advertising standards applied would have declared illegal. For instance that Turkey would be joining the EU, whilst ignoring the fact the UK had a veto.

A referendum that disenfranchised many of those most effected by the result, should not have stood. For instance, people who had been living outside the UK for more than 15 years.  Two members of my family were disenfranchised by this, but now live in the UK, and the rights of others in my family to live with their partner and children are diminished.

Very few economists see any positive outcome of brexit, and those that do envisage the destruction of UK agriculture and manufacturing industry (as admitted by Patrick Minford in a HoC Select Committee).

The future of this country is bleak, and sadly the most vulnerable in this society will be blamed, rather than those responsible.  Racism has been deemed acceptable, dishonesty and corruption in government is now unchecked, I would like to think those on this forum were against such things, but they are the result of the referendum.

The damage from brexit is much more than leaving the EU. Democracy in the UK is greatly damaged. The power of parliament and the courts to hold the executive in check are being eroded. Ministers are no longer held accountable for their failures and behaviour.  This isn't progress.  It is the path to a failed state.




Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brains on December 25, 2020, 10:16:40 pm
Summation of the new wonder deal in terms of comparison of membership - but these pages are incomplete?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: langcliffe on December 25, 2020, 10:47:35 pm
Summation of the new wonder deal in terms of comparison of membership - but these pages are incomplete?

Just to be clear, the "Removal of border checks" row is misleading. The UK and Ireland have always had border controls with the rest of the EU, not having signed the Schengen Agreement. Admittedly, the border checks may become more rigourous.

Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are non-EU countries who are within the Schengen area.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 26, 2020, 09:35:56 am
So now we're all pathetically grateful a deal's been signed & we're not getting the disastrous no-deal option. It's pretty well identical to May's proposal; you know, the one Johnson voted against. Now apparently it's the best thing since sliced bread because he "negotiated" it. There was a much better deal we could have had of course...

So here's a few things that we'll be sacrificing :-

(https://scontent-lhr8-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/133509989_4280465448635455_7619995903663720383_o.jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=b-82G-6m998AX-oGPje&_nc_ht=scontent-lhr8-1.xx&oh=35c4837838dee6a1cd50a7dba9c80308&oe=600DE7D4)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 26, 2020, 10:20:54 am
Purely out of interest, have you ever been on a flight which stopped in Europe before flying east? I regularly commuted to SE Asia and I know of none, and believe me I looked. If you fly to Schipol or Frankfurt, that is hub and spoke, not an onward flight. Who wants to short hop a 777 or (god forbid) a 380 - it's not a commuter bus.

For me the best options usually hub via the ME given I want to fly out of Manchester. Flying to Perth, KL or Singapore the best option was usually Qatar, and certainly the best deal in business class. All other reasonable options like hubbing via HK fly to London. Turkish Airlines is a viable option for many via Istanbul, and has decent planes.

Nothing will change in aviation. The British fly the most of any country in Europe. It's a business people want. If there was any chance of that falling, then maybe that would be good, but I somewhat doubt it will happen.

Finland are offering 90 day work permits, all expenses paid, to try and attract skilled workers. There is a shortage. I worked abroad before freedom of movement in Europe. There was zero issue if you had a job. If you want to live in another country then apply for citizenship if it takes your fancy. Or move to Finland (I have a lot of Finnish jokes if that will help).
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: JoshW on December 26, 2020, 10:27:06 am
Purely out of interest, have you ever been on a flight which stopped in Europe before flying east? I regularly commuted to SE Asia and I know of none, and believe me I looked. If you fly to Schipol or Frankfurt, that is hub and spoke, not an onward flight. Who wants to short hop a 777 or (god forbid) a 380 - it's not a commuter bus.


Flying to bangkok with Norwegian from gatwick stops in oslo
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 26, 2020, 10:42:39 am
Purely out of interest, have you ever been on a flight which stopped in Europe before flying east? I regularly commuted to SE Asia and I know of none, and believe me I looked. If you fly to Schipol or Frankfurt, that is hub and spoke, not an onward flight. Who wants to short hop a 777 or (god forbid) a 380 - it's not a commuter bus.


Flying to bangkok with Norwegian from gatwick stops in oslo

Really? That must the long range 737 I used it to fly to some hick place on the Hudson from Edinburgh with them. I didn't think it would get to Bangkok. Me and Norwegian go back a long way to when they had a couple of turboprops.

Norwegian are bust. It's not really a big surprise. They made Freddy Laker look sober.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 26, 2020, 11:17:23 am
Whoops, my example's hub & spoke...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 26, 2020, 01:23:53 pm
Aardgoose's articulate comments above (late evening Christmas day) are certainly food for thought. I also share his concerns about the direction in which political style seems to be heading.

But I'm generally a glass half full person and, buoyed by the Queen's speech yesterday, I'm hopeful that things will not be as bad as they might have been, in 2021 and beyond. I agree with you that we've shot ourselves in the foot though.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 26, 2020, 03:03:22 pm
I look forward to reviewing this thread in 10 years time, and seeing if all the pessimistic doom-mongers are right...

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: royfellows on December 26, 2020, 03:48:17 pm
I look forward to reviewing this thread in 10 years time, and seeing if all the pessimistic doom-mongers are right...

Chris.

Its happening. From memory a while back, could be one of the above?

Anyway, a previous thread "when we leave the EU at the end of the year with no deal etc"
or words to that effect.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on December 26, 2020, 04:04:27 pm
I remember reading a quote about John Peel from about 1970, exasperated at the amount of what he considered bad bubblegum music in the pop charts and complaining that one of his favourite groups, probably Principal Edwards Magic Theatre (don't go there), weren't having the massive success he expected.

"I don't understand why they're not making it", he said, probably to John Walters, his producer; "Everyone I know has their album".

Walters said: "No John, it's just that you know everyone who has their album".  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Mark on December 26, 2020, 04:07:10 pm
Regardless of me regarding this whole thread as a waste of server space

Agreed

Also my text is bigger than Tony's, so what ever I write next must be fact
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 26, 2020, 07:36:06 pm
...except it wasn't my text.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 26, 2020, 08:55:00 pm
Quote
pessimistic doom-mongers are right

Many of the effects are already in evidence:

A PM who's whole career was built on lying.

A government unaccountable to parliament.

A legal system under attack with underfunding, and moves to make executive action above the law are in progress. (that is the the government manifesto).

There is already much more increased explicit racism and xenophobia.

Dishonesty and corruption at the highest level now goes unchallenged.

For example, contracts to supply PPE were given preferentially to companies with close personal relationships to MPs or were party donors. Many of such companies had no experience in PPE supply of even international trading, given most were obtaining supplies from China. Indeed a fast track channel was setup for such companies.

We have a record number of food banks (true before covid struck). The existence of which one government member found 'uplifting'.

The social support infrastructure in this country is under resourced and failing.

The country is more divided than ever.

The UK's global and regional influence is badly damaged.

The people of NI now have more rights than the residents of Great Britain.

The UK itself  is highly fractured and likely to break up.

Our finance industry is now exposed to steady attrition.

This is already happening. It isn't pessimism. Its observable fact. Calling this 'doom mongering' is insulting.
I can only assume that you are in favour of all of the above. If that is the society you want, and again I can only assume it is, it isn't one I wish to share with you.

In 10 years, if this is reversed I will be relieved (or dead). But any reversal will be in direct opposition to the current direction of the country, a direction you have backed.



 




Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on December 26, 2020, 10:02:17 pm
Quote
pessimistic doom-mongers are right

Many of the effects are already in evidence:

[snip]

Our finance industry is now exposed to steady attrition.


I'm not going to argue with all that, however I make two points:
Firstly all your points are not measurable, and are just a matter of your opinion. Of course you are welcome to that, I have a different opinion.
And secondly, our manufacturing industry has been decimated over the last 40 years whilst within the EU, so perhaps our ability to renew it now we are outside might counterbalance the supposed finance industry disaster that is unfolding (is this the same industry that caused the 2008 credit crunch?? - sounds like a real asset!)

I think doom monger is probably the only demonstrably accurate statement in all of this, insulting or not.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 27, 2020, 02:30:27 am
I think that the change from manufacturing to finance and services has been an innate change in the UK, driven by Tory governments since the early 80s. I don't think there has been an inward pressure from the EU for this change. A case in point being Acorn, who spurned manufacturing computers to providing a service designing computer architectures instead, and became a World leader.

Myself, I'd quite like to see the return of nuts and bolts engineering.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 27, 2020, 06:29:48 am
Quote
pessimistic doom-mongers are right

Many of the effects are already in evidence:

[snip]

Our finance industry is now exposed to steady attrition.


I'm not going to argue with all that, however I make two points:
Firstly all your points are not measurable, and are just a matter of your opinion. Of course you are welcome to that, I have a different opinion.
And secondly, our manufacturing industry has been decimated over the last 40 years whilst within the EU, so perhaps our ability to renew it now we are outside might counterbalance the supposed finance industry disaster that is unfolding (is this the same industry that caused the 2008 credit crunch?? - sounds like a real asset!)

I think doom monger is probably the only demonstrably accurate statement in all of this, insulting or not.

Chris.
So which facts on aardvark's list are "Only a matter of opinion"?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 27, 2020, 07:05:00 am
This is the final entry in Alan Bennett's diary for the current issue of the LRB (London Review Bookshop):

"15 December.  There were those in 1914 who believed that war was just what was needed - as a cleanser and a salutary shock.  England would be the better for it.  As we wait for the result of the final Brexit talks, the heirs of these fools are still with us".
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: StealthYak on December 27, 2020, 08:47:21 am
And secondly, our manufacturing industry has been decimated over the last 40 years whilst within the EU, so perhaps our ability to renew it now we are outside

The global economy has changed a lot in the last 40 years, and in the same period we were a member of the EU.   That doesn't make one the cause of the other - unless of course you belive everything must be blamed on someone else.

The concept that we can suddenly switch away from getting 80% of our GDP from services (which are not covered by the deal) back to manufacturing awhile at the same time having to renegotiate trade deals is simply the fantasy of those who can't  face up to the fact that they were played for fools by the leave campaign.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on December 27, 2020, 08:52:22 am
I agree with much of what you say StealthYak - but we are where we are and we can't now reverse the decision. What we can do is make the best of a bad situation, going forwards. No point losing sleep over what cannot be changed. The main thing is to learn from it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 27, 2020, 10:43:13 am
Quote
Firstly all your points are not measurable, and are just a matter of your opinion.

Rather than engage with evidenced fact you ignore inconvenient truths.

For example:

NI Citizens.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/your_right_to_irish_citizenship.html#lee33f (https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/your_right_to_irish_citizenship.html#lee33f)

NI citizens can claim Irish citizenship and hence rights of EU citizens and the rights ok UK citizens. This isn't an opinion.


PPE Procurement

https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/investigation-into-government-procurement-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/ (https://www.nao.org.uk/press-release/investigation-into-government-procurement-during-the-covid-19-pandemic/)

Suppliers introduced by Government contacts 10x more likely to be awarded contracts.


Underfunding legal system under attack.

There is a huge backlog of cases, with trials scheduled long after the alleged events, when witnesses memories will have faded. This backlog predates COVID. The court estate is badly maintained and has been greatly reduced since 2010 with frequent cancellations with leaking building, failed lifts etc.

https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/criminal-court-backlog-reaches-two-year-high/5103650.article (https://www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/criminal-court-backlog-reaches-two-year-high/5103650.article)

The government has stated it's intent in it's 2019 manifesto to restrict the scope of judicial review of government actions and has included 'ouster clauses' in recent legislation that attempt to remove the right to challenge actions.

https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan (https://www.conservatives.com/our-plan)


Global Influence

In the EU we had numerous veto's and representation at all levels, for instance we could veto a country joining the EU. We have lost that power.  In the EU we were highly influential in setting standards of product regulation, we have lost that. We claim a special relationship with the US, but ignore the large Irish American lobby, and by endangering the 'Good Friday' agreement have reduced our influence in the US.

https://www.ft.com/content/8c533029-5e5e-418b-9d1a-03ef38a4de07 (https://www.ft.com/content/8c533029-5e5e-418b-9d1a-03ef38a4de07)


I am not a cheerleader for the finance industry, but the EU is not responsible for the UK's manufacturing decline. Germany has much greater success, and exports more to China among others. Manufacturers with a large EU market are unlikely to want to invest in the UK, 
Quote
As one Chinese businessman said  [] after the Brexit vote, “Britain is the door to Europe. Without Europe, it’s just a door.”

https://www.wsj.com/articles/markets-to-may-britain-needs-a-better-brexit-plan-1484593397 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/markets-to-may-britain-needs-a-better-brexit-plan-1484593397)

As for the Tory MP finding food banks "uplifting".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41264965 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41264965)


As for the PM's record and international reputation, just one example as seen from outside the UK and by his ex colleagues.

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/london-diary-was-the-foreign-secretary-a-thug-and-a-liar (https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/international/london-diary-was-the-foreign-secretary-a-thug-and-a-liar)


I am sure you will now declare all this evidence as "fake news" or ignore it as you have attempted to do.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 27, 2020, 03:01:00 pm
Apologies Mr Aardgoose for calling you “aardvark”. I plead senility.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 28, 2020, 02:15:23 am
Just doing a bit of geological research. If Scotland goes Independent, I presume there will be a grace period, whereby Scotland hosts the subs, for say 10 years or so. Where are they going to go after?  Looking at Portsmouth, it's fairly flabby clay and silt stuff. Ditto Thames Estuary, Kent north coast etc. So I guess the subs would have to go to Devon. Maybe the Teign or Dart?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 28, 2020, 02:30:08 am
Answering my own question, hosting the subs for XXX years would presumably be a condition for letting the referendum to go ahead.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 28, 2020, 08:45:45 am
Devonport probably, which is where the attack boats live.

Scotland is going to make itself extremely unpopular if it dismantles half of Europe’s nuclear deterrence on a whim. A lot of things go unsaid in public.

This is what actually goes through leaders minds:

https://www.army.mod.uk/deployments/baltics/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on December 28, 2020, 08:53:16 am
Scotland is going to make itself extremely unpopular if it dismantles half of Europe’s nuclear deterrence on a whim.

Surely the whole of this topic (Brexit) is about a whim?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on December 28, 2020, 09:28:10 am
Being in the EU is trivial compared to being in NATO. And Trump seriously put the willies up European leaders. They might have tried much much harder to keep the UK in the EU if he had been in power then. There is serious regret now and lots of finger pointing.

Even the deeply unaware seem to have noticed something is amiss:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/28/uk-quietly-shifts-away-from-promise-of-deep-foreign-and-security-links-with-eu
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on December 28, 2020, 10:11:42 am
Being in the EU is trivial compared to being in NATO. And Trump seriously put the willies up European leaders. They might have tried much much harder to keep the UK in the EU if he had been in power then. There is serious regret now and lots of finger pointing.

Even the deeply unaware seem to have noticed something is amiss:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/28/uk-quietly-shifts-away-from-promise-of-deep-foreign-and-security-links-with-eu

What were you expecting? Due diligence?

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: andrewmc on December 28, 2020, 02:01:21 pm
If I was pregnant (which is of course pretty unlikely), I would seriously consider giving birth in Northern Ireland, allowing any progeny to claim Irish and therefore EU citizenship...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on December 28, 2020, 02:11:54 pm
Michael Parkinson's dad famously drove his labouring wife back over the Yorkshire border from somewhere else to give birth, just in case his son happened to be good at cricket. I'm not even sure if he knew it was a son in those days, so that's double-cautious ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on December 28, 2020, 05:22:27 pm
There used to be lots of similar tales - especially around Earby and Bar'lick, where the nearest maternity hospital used to be in Colne, on the other county.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 28, 2020, 09:41:32 pm
Michael Parkinson's dad famously drove his labouring wife back over the Yorkshire border from somewhere else to give birth, just in case his son happened to be good at cricket. I'm not even sure if he knew it was a son in those days, so that's double-cautious ;)

Didn't make him immune to Emu attacks though did it?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 28, 2020, 09:47:44 pm
Devonport probably, which is where the attack boats live.

Looks like you may be right about that. Appears that there are already several nuclear subs there awaiting decomission.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on December 28, 2020, 10:40:18 pm
Didn't make him immune to Emu attacks though did it?
He may have been called Hull, but he was from Kent ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on December 28, 2020, 11:40:56 pm
TBF Rod Hull was bloody good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPvgZhjpJ7Q
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on December 29, 2020, 07:25:57 am
Didn't make him immune to Emu attacks though did it?
He may have been called Hull, but he was from Kent ;)
Surprising fact no. 2,642...I nearly bought Rod Hull's house in Kent. Somewhere near Lenham I recall, next to a cricket pitch. It was thatched, and that finally put me off at the time. Bit daft in retrospect - we've been living in a thatched cottage for the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on December 29, 2020, 08:16:11 am
Have you ever had to adjust your TV aerial though? ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Ian Ball on December 29, 2020, 12:05:39 pm
Harsh.

I remember a review of the Scottish independance white paper suggestig alternative sites for the nuclear fleet, it was not a long list. I remember Fowey being on there as a deep water port.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on December 29, 2020, 03:26:40 pm
Just to complicate things, there are also the Z berths which may be controversial, local residents are provided with iodine tablets in case of radiation leaks from a sub. A number are scattered around Scotland, eg Loch Ewe.

http://www.ports.org.uk/port.asp?id=960 (http://www.ports.org.uk/port.asp?id=960)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pegasus on December 29, 2020, 06:14:50 pm
TBF Rod Hull was bloody good.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPvgZhjpJ7Q

I shouldn't be laughing...but I am  :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 01, 2021, 01:34:10 am
The definition of irony? I don't know whether to be happy or upset. I hope we'll see less of him, so in that respect I guess it's good news:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/stanley-johnson-confirms-application-for-french-passport-on-eve-of-brexit (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/31/stanley-johnson-confirms-application-for-french-passport-on-eve-of-brexit)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: crickleymal on January 01, 2021, 02:19:29 am
Oddly enough he is a remainer according to the stuff I read today.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Wolfo on January 01, 2021, 09:13:23 am
 Bye, Brits  :down:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 01, 2021, 09:49:04 am
Oddly enough he is a remainer according to the stuff I read today.

Bowis is a raging Europhile. Frost, the UK’s chief negotiator in 2020, has a degree in Medieval French and was ambassador to places like Denmark. They are united in a belief that the EU is cocking it all up the way they are going. They are as likely to be right as anyone else, and are a lot less dim than the average journalist (Frost in particular).

My view is that this was largely a vote against a disinterested elite in London.

We are now Switzerland about 30 years ago and I think the EU is contemplating losing the will to live on that front.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 02, 2021, 10:51:54 pm
Not worth a thread of it's own, so dumping it here.

The Farage Garage in Kent does not have a sinkhole!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/02/authorities-investigate-possible-sinkhole-in-kent-lorry-park
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Brains on January 03, 2021, 12:35:53 pm
Not worth a thread of it's own, so dumping it here.

The Farage Garage in Kent does not have a sinkhole!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jan/02/authorities-investigate-possible-sinkhole-in-kent-lorry-park
https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27375.0 (https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=27375.0)
 :coffee:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 12, 2021, 01:48:57 am
Flipping heck. Lorry sandwich-gate in the Daily Mail! Dial turned up to 11, you'd think by the Comments on the website that they weren't happy that Brexit 'is done'. Don't think they'll be happy until Joan of Arc is resurrected and burnt again.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 12, 2021, 08:31:34 am
A really nice French caver I once knew told me in all seriousness that the reason that the French don’t like the English was because of Jeanne d’Arc.

The Greta Thunberg of her day.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on January 12, 2021, 08:41:52 am
She was quite late in the Hundred Years War - we'd been interfering in each others governance (due to all the kings of Europe being related) long before that.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 12, 2021, 09:40:13 am
Flipping heck. Lorry sandwich-gate in the Daily Mail! Dial turned up to 11, you'd think by the Comments on the website that they weren't happy that Brexit 'is done'. Don't think they'll be happy until Joan of Arc is resurrected and burnt again.

If that's the worst side effect of Brexit, then I consider it a resounding success.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 12, 2021, 02:23:40 pm
It's not, it's just a brief comedic moment in a slow-moving economic, political and social disaster. That's better - I'm going for my walk.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart France on January 12, 2021, 10:25:15 pm
I've just shipped my first parcels to Northern Ireland complete with A4 size CN23 customs declaration forms stuck on their outsides and copious copies of all the paperwork for the truck driver.

Since CN23 form is used worldwide you'd think there would be a version of it where you can type in the data on a blank form (type it on your PC) then save it for re-use and adaptation on a future occasion, but there isn't.  Royal Mail has the form but you're expected to use a quill pen to fill it in.  Indian Post Office - nope just like Royal Mail.  Guernsey Post Office has a CN23 that you can type into the boxes and print it, but cannot save it for future use.

There are some entreprenurial websites for online forms that create CN23 (amongst others) for you and let you save your data for future use but they are not free to use and they get to keep your data.

Anyway, I've developed my own saveable editable CN23 now, hey ho, and waiting now to see how long before my parcels arrive!


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart France on January 13, 2021, 07:49:14 pm
News update from the Brexit coalface...

The lorry turned up at our premises and our Northern Ireland parcels went onboard.  It was a very big and very expensive high-tech lorry full of expensive industrial stuff.

Driver, nice chap, but clueless.  We gave him a biscuit and explained to him what bits of paper are now needed to get across the Irish Sea or the Channel, sent him on his way, and wished him well.

We had an email from the Trader Support Service (aka HMRC) the other day saying that lorries are starting to be being turned back at the port unless they have a bit of paper which integrates all the CN23's etc for all the consigned goods into a single "lorry document" which has been filed online in advance.  The port in question in this case is Belfast which comes after the lorry has made the sea crossing, and then might soon be sent on its way back to Birkenhead.  Less than 12 hours notice was given of this lorry paperwork rule change...

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on January 13, 2021, 08:23:49 pm
How do all these unnecessary journeys reconcile with the need for the planet to reduce its carbon dioxide emissions?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 13, 2021, 08:37:19 pm
The fun has barely begun.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/video-news/pm-says-hell-overturn-ni-protocol-if-business-continues-to-suffer-39964434.html

So what he says is he will invoke the last resort article, er, first.

It’s all toast anyway in 2024 because Stormont gets a vote on continuing it, and they do lots of things on principle rather than any discernible logic. Bit like the fishing, moderately long grass. Gives time for politicians to move on to greener pastures before fan and shit interact.

It’s always interesting driving round Antrim’s towns. All those flags and happy faces.


Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 13, 2021, 08:45:00 pm
This report was just on Channel 4 News, and it's pretty depressing - admittedly their speciality, but this time it's pretty much all fact:

https://www.channel4.com/news/johnson-says-he-could-suspend-agreement-with-eu-on-goods-shipped-to-northern-ireland (https://www.channel4.com/news/johnson-says-he-could-suspend-agreement-with-eu-on-goods-shipped-to-northern-ireland)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Stuart France on January 13, 2021, 09:46:24 pm
The paperwork aspect from a consigner viewpoint is not that bad when you have done it once.  You need to fill in that CN23 and create a waybill to match it exactly which is most easily done by dropping a textbox over the big word CN23 on the CN23 form and covering it up with the words Shipping Inventory and then reprint the result a few times.

Just in case, we gave our driver three copies of all commercial documents including invoice and delivery note as we imagined he would not have a photocopier on board his lorry.

My worry is the goods do not arrive, go missing, or we do not get paid.  I did think of stopping trade with Northern Ireland for a while until things cool down.  In the end we have decided to trade but only on Ex-Works terms where the NI customer arranges a collection from our GB doorstep where our responsibility will end, and customer pays us in advance.

The worry from the courier viewpoint is that the whole lorry will be turned back if just one of the consignments is not properly documented, and the software systems to create the master Lorry Document from all the individual CN23s and file it with HMRC either does not exist or is not understood.

One worry of many for the NI buyer is that they have to register the import with HMRC within a few months to pay the duty which is due - which is none since there is a free trade agreement but they still have to file a null return.  They can't unless they are a huge importer.  HMRC has a system called CHIEF for that, but you need to huge to be allowed to use it, and go on a training course.

Step in HMRC's free Trader Support Service which has a .co.uk address not .gov.uk such was the rush.  They will file using CHIEF on your behalf, but the kinds of questions they are asking are not in the gift of NI buyers to answer - for example which ferry ports were used on what dates by what haulier and who operated the ferry etc - so the backdated customs declaration cannot be made easily.

I rang TSS the other day for some clarification and a kindly person with an Irish accent answered very promptly, so reassuringly close to the action with skin in the game, but it soon became clear they were reading a call-centre script and sadly as much in the dark as we were.

Imagine all this being repeated on Hadrian's Wall.






Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 14, 2021, 08:26:55 am
The foundation of NI tourism. It’s chastening the things you didn’t have a clue about.

I’ll spare you the picture of grown men and women with cloaks and swords trooping down to the harbour.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on January 14, 2021, 10:29:02 am
One reasons TSS has a co.uk domain.  It's not a government body, but is funded by HMRC.  It is actually run by  the "Institute of Export & International Trade" which is a consortium including some of those proposing "alternative arrangements" as a solution to the NI/Ireland border that required non-existent technology.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on January 14, 2021, 10:45:28 am
Imagine all this being repeated on Hadrian's Wall.

It shouldn't come to that; remember, we were promised that the Scottish independence referendum was a once in a generation event, at most.

I don't think we should have another one inflicted on us so soon.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 14, 2021, 11:37:56 am
Oh I do. I would love one, and the SNP to win it. The deal is simple - financial freedom (including no more Barnett Formula handouts), and a border. No animosity or punishments. Just true independence. If that's what the majority want - great - go for it.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 14, 2021, 11:56:27 am
The irony being, of course, that Scotland loves unions when it suits them. Like the bigger one they're trying to rejoin, whilst trying to simultaneously leave the smaller, arguably more useful one they're currently in. Don't get me wrong, I like unions too. They help prevent petty nationalism for one thing. It's funny how the loudest calls for 'independence' are always from the ones who pretty much have it already. The world is changing, and nation-states are becoming more and more irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. The inevitable long-term result is closer union for all nations in everything, and patriotism will hopefully become an embarrassing anachronism. I do not want to live in Vulgaria.

The differences between people compared to their similarities are microscopic, mostly just a suntan, eye-shape and hair texture, and most trouble in the world is currently caused by a generation of old, selfish and largely wealthy pinkish people who realise their time is up but don't have the brains or the grace to leave the stage. Corruption is endemic as they try to hang on to their ill-gotten gains and create diversion amongst the more deserving to avoid retribution. Covid and Brexit may actually accelerate this process, ironically, despite the short-term misery. Both will eliminate the old, the sick and the conservative-minded more effectively than any social policy could. The demographics of the rich west are changing, and we are getting older and unhealthier and the developing countries are getting younger and are fitter by default. They will, eventually, begin to dominate, by sheer force of youth, and there won't be much an inward-looking nation of unhealthy pensioners will be able to do about it, no matter how much dosh they've got embedded in the house.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 14, 2021, 12:13:20 pm
The more countries you visit, the more obvious it becomes that western Europe is in general the best place to live on the planet. That isn’t going to stop being true, it’s just geography.

And number 1 is probably France, followed by the UK, in terms of gifts.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: PeteHall on January 14, 2021, 12:41:25 pm
The differences between people compared to their similarities are microscopic,
Pretty much agree.

Quote
mostly just a suntan, eye-shape and hair texture
Completely disagree. Every 'nation' (legally or morally speaking) has thousands of years of history and culture. It's ingrained into the way we think and view the world. This is real diversity, not skin colour or your preference on who you sleep with. To deny that heritage and culture are important is utterly ridiculous.

Quote
most trouble in the world is currently caused by a generation of old, selfish and largely wealthy pinkish people
I don't think skin colour has anything to do with it. Wealthy/ powerful people in all cultures have been able to twist the system in their favour, throughout history. The rich get richer and always have done. This resets itself once in a while when there is an uprising or revolution, but invariably this leads to more suffering in the short to medium term.

Quote
The demographics of the rich west are changing, and we are getting older and unhealthier and the developing countries are getting younger and are fitter by default. They will, eventually, begin to dominate, by sheer force of youth, and there won't be much an inward-looking nation of unhealthy pensioners will be able to do about it, no matter how much dosh they've got embedded in the house.
Sure, we have more older and unhealthier folk than in Africa for example, but that is in no small part because we have the healthcare to keep unhealthy people alive for longer. But we also have young folk, with the time and resources to learn, develop and stay healthy. Furthermore, the stability and lifestyle offered by a wealthy nation attracts immigrants from less wealthy countries and these are typically the younger, stronger and more driven ones, who are motivated enough to get up and leave to find a better life. The west acts as a brain drain on poorer nations and I therefore see your scenario as incredibly far fetched (certainly within the next few generations).
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Badlad on January 14, 2021, 01:41:17 pm
Why is it that the UK (52% anyway) was so keen to leave the European Union but seem to take the opposite view to maintain the union with Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?  Can't much of the same arguments be presented about both sides.

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on January 14, 2021, 02:12:57 pm
Yes, probably - and the arguments are just as poor.

What this country needs is a period of political stability, so we can get back on our feet.

I honestly don't think it'd be in the Scots' interests to bail out anyway.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 14, 2021, 02:23:49 pm
Why is it that the UK (52% anyway) was so keen to leave the European Union but seem to take the opposite view to maintain the union with Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?  Can't much of the same arguments be presented about both sides.

Yes. Don’t worry, I have had that with lots of friends in Scotland. They think it’s different and that the SNP isn’t a bunch of rabid nationalists. I beg to differ.

I went to school and uni in Scotland, and things starting going a bit weird in about 1990.

I now have friends descended wholly from German Jews who fled Nazi oppression being fervent SNP supporters. And there’s me with my grandmother Ross, from Ross.

This is my generation by age almost exactly:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=video&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi4yvqrzZvuAhV7aRUIHcP7A3QQtwIwAHoECAMQAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D29-LRuuqFT0&usg=AOvVaw1JGo8BZ4QoztKjTGMEE79F

It’s engendered a victim culture completely divorced from reality. A more realistic view of what the issues are is this:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwixwJX7zpvuAhV5ThUIHUBmA0kQwqsBMAh6BAgMEAM&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNcQIvmR21VU&usg=AOvVaw3_O3Vungv6nSPi2e6EFfey

The Scottish class system in full flow.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 14, 2021, 02:25:14 pm
I honestly don't think it'd be in the Scots' interests to bail out anyway.

That's very likely true, but you could make that agrument about Brexiters. Both dogmatically have a single goal where everything else is collateral in achieving that goal.

Meanwhile - not looking good on the fish front, although that may improve. Defra: "The government is in close contact with the industry to understand and address any issues they are experiencing."  - maybe they should have done that before Brexit.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fulk on January 14, 2021, 02:37:09 pm
Quote
Completely disagree. Every 'nation' (legally or morally speaking) has thousands of years of history and culture. It's ingrained into the way we think and view the world.

I doubt whether that’s true; our history and culture are drummed into us – it’s nurture, not nature. Consider
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 14, 2021, 03:12:08 pm
I doubt whether that’s true; our history and culture are drummed into us – it’s nurture, not nature. Consider

That is true - we are born equal, then taught to hate thy neighbour, be it on the lines of nation, skin colour, language, perceived historical wrongs, accent, football team, cricket, whatever. If you eliminate one reason, another will pop up.

As a species, we have a need to belong. It is in us all. Our notion of what we belong to varies, and changes over time. But it is there, whether you are white, black, Christian, from Yorkshire, etc. It's our tribal instinct, and it has served us well. Suddenly we find ourselves in a time where it is much less relevant. But the instinct is as strong as ever. It's our identity.

In a stable society, our identity should align with our administrative system and geopolitical boundaries. Not doing so causes friction, you can see it globally.

And that is my reason for wanting to get out of the EU. It will fail in due course on those lines.  You cannot unite the tribes of Europe. It will never happen. The harder you try, the more people will rebel. We are the first out, but we won't be the last. And when it properly goes bang, I want to be on the outside. There will be short, and maybe even medium term hardship, but nothing like when the whole EU political pipedream implodes.

You can bribe people temporarily to overlook their identity, which is how the EU has expanded. But as soon as hard times hit, and the money dries up, there will be an almighty punchup.

Simply down to failing to understand the instinctive tribalism of human beings.

Pity really - it could work well if designed to accommodate the citizens.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fishes on January 14, 2021, 03:20:48 pm
Why is it that the UK (52% anyway) was so keen to leave the European Union but seem to take the opposite view to maintain the union with Scotland, Wales and N Ireland?  Can't much of the same arguments be presented about both sides.

Probably because a large part of them bought into a remarkably well organised campaign of propaganda and misinformation organised by the likes om Cummings, Farage, Cambridge Analytica and foreign actors. This was placed over a long history of lazy politicians blaming the EU for their own failings. I despise what they did but their campaign was brilliant by comparison to the disorganised and half hearted remain campaign.

This was very similar to what happened with the recent rise of the idiot Trump in America and that of right wing governments in Poland and Hungary.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on January 14, 2021, 03:51:01 pm
Quote
Simply down to failing to understand the instinctive tribalism of human beings.

You imply all British/English are part of a single tribe by geography.  Id rather associate with people with shared values, sadly those values don't seem not to be shared with a good proportion of the UK, demonstrated by the support of the fraudulently gained brexit by the selfish, jingoistic, racist, ignorant or thick.

Just because something is 'instinctive' doesn't mean it is good or should be valued. Tribalism is one step away from the white supremacists of the US, with their appropriation of norse and germanic myths and runes.  People claiming anlgo saxon racial purity and worse.

It is worth noting that the support for brexit in the EU is largely from parties that can accurately be described as 'fascist adjacent', and in the US by the current president who is now widely acknowledged to be fascist.



Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: PeteHall on January 14, 2021, 03:53:36 pm
Quote
Completely disagree. Every 'nation' (legally or morally speaking) has thousands of years of history and culture. It's ingrained into the way we think and view the world.

I doubt whether that’s true; our history and culture are drummed into us – it’s nurture, not nature. Consider

That is indeed true, but our different heritage and cultures have huge value. Different people seeing things in different ways allows us to solve problems different ways, learn from others and improve ourselves and our world.

I cannot imagine a worse world than a monoculture where everyone thinks and behaves the same.

Trying to mould everyone towards this monoculture (as those on the left of the political spectrum seem to be trying), alienates the majority who value their heritage. It breeds division and polarisation, as we are seeing all over the western world.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: droid on January 14, 2021, 04:18:47 pm
We are seeing division and polarisation because of right wing populists like Trump, Johnson and Farage, not because of the left.

These populists demonise minorities and anyone that doesn't think like them as part of a political strategy and people who are hard of thinking fall for it.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SamT on January 14, 2021, 04:27:16 pm
and it has served us well.

This is the bit I struggle with.   How exactly.

Tell that to the family of celtic fan who got stabbed up by a rangers fan.
Or a persecuted Jew,

All its ever done is lead to war and violence as far as I can see.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fishes on January 14, 2021, 05:05:22 pm
and it has served us well.

All its ever done is lead to war and violence as far as I can see.

It was largely the death and destruction of WW1 and WW2 that inspired the creation of the European Union.

"We must build a kind of United States of Europe. In this way only will hundreds of millions of toilers be able to regain the simple joys and hopes which make life worth living"
Winston Churchill 1946
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 14, 2021, 05:07:25 pm
We are seeing division and polarisation because of right wing populists like Trump, Johnson and Farage, not because of the left.

Remind me which side of the political spectrum the SNP and Plaid Cymru are?

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 14, 2021, 05:12:58 pm

This is the bit I struggle with.   How exactly.

[/quote]

Well it is an essential ingredient in being human, and we are by far the most successful animal species. Clearly there's an evolutionary advantage to being tribal. Otherwise we wouldn't be because I agree it does come with quite a death toll!
I can only guess that those who were not tribal were killed a long time ago and any genetic tendency to be non-tribal has long gone.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: al on January 14, 2021, 05:39:54 pm
Tribal???

I thought that the whole point of the UK leaving the EU was to prevent rich people from having to pay the taxes they were due.

And when you consider how many Scots vote for Tory MPs, it's pretty obvious why they wouldn't like being governed by the Conservative Party, even if it was a moderate one that knew what it was doing.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 14, 2021, 05:51:13 pm
Tribal???

I thought that the whole point of the UK leaving the EU was to prevent rich people from having to pay the taxes they were due.

And when you consider how many Scots vote for Tory MPs, it's pretty obvious why they wouldn't like being governed by the Conservative Party, even if it was a moderate one that knew what it was doing.

On the way out, it would be good if southern Scotland was handed back to Northumbria where it belongs. Roughly the bit that has Tory MP’s.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: royfellows on January 14, 2021, 06:08:47 pm
I can see this useless thread running until end of lockdown, then when we all start to go underground again, it can quitely be put out of its misery.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 14, 2021, 06:43:12 pm
I almost lost my wellies in the mud down Pippikin the day before yesterday. The artwork lost her head she was laughing so much. Lovely day, blue sky etc.

That sort of thing?

I can’t do the rest of what I would normally do because we are (for instance) banned from Scotland. The schools are shut. No pubs. Climbing wall is shut. Gym is shut. Lake District is full of curtain twitchers who would probably dob you in. Can’t see relatives. Giving granny her puddings is about it.

Inane posts it is then. But possibly we could focus on batteries or tackle bags or the length of footloops. We could do wezzit, but that went phut when it left Gods Own Country. Might try that.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: royfellows on January 14, 2021, 06:48:19 pm
I had a go at being helpful with my paper on Li Ion cells and safe usage, its there on AN if anyone ants a copy.

My problem when things get back to normal is the digging projects in mid Wales appear to be going nowhere. I am in truth an odd sort of fellow, I realise this myself. I have to keep finding new challenges in life, its what makes me work and keeps me going.
I like building and selling my lamps, but the dust has somewhat settled there, now its a bit routine.

I will find something somewhere.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Roger W on January 14, 2021, 07:14:50 pm
Your superlamps have been a great success, Roy.  How about turning your thoughts to inveting a suitable backup lamp for the likes of tim.rose2?  Something like a caver's watch, maybe, that can be worn on the wrist, have its battery kept charged by random hand movements, and give an adequate amount of light to find your way out of a cave?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Graigwen on January 15, 2021, 09:10:39 am


On the way out, it would be good if southern Scotland was handed back to Northumbria where it belongs. Roughly the bit that has Tory MP’s.

Even a statement like this is not really that simple. Years ago I did a lot of research into landholdings in the general area of the south eastern border of Scotland in the 11th to 14th centuries. I was surprised to finds how much the border shifted southwards and northwards at various times, The organisation of what was from time to time the part of the area in Scotland was not all that different from northern Northumbria, but was very different from the Scottish Highlands. When the international border shifted, the peasants did not move, nor usually did their immediate superiors - they merely shifted their allegience from England to Scotland or vice-versa.

On one occasion I found a Scottish noble owning land in the area who was entrusted with leading a negotiating mission on behalf of the Scottish ling to the English king. Some years later when his land was now in England, the same man owned it and was entrusted with leading a negotiating mission on behalf off the English king to the Scottish king.

It is of course true that much of the population of southeastern Scotland is of Anglian descent, but the border is not a racial divide, thank goodness.

.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on January 15, 2021, 09:49:43 am
& the Angles / Saxons came from Germany / Denmark:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles

The Normans, although invading from France, were actually of Viking descent - so the "English" have actually always been trying to get out of Europe!  :shrug:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: oldfart on January 15, 2021, 10:07:28 am
And the Scots are Irish.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Speleofish on January 15, 2021, 10:18:14 am
And vice versa, especially in Ulster...
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: SamT on January 15, 2021, 10:29:51 am

Well it is an essential ingredient in being human, and we are by far the most successful animal species. Clearly there's an evolutionary advantage to being tribal. Otherwise we wouldn't be because I agree it does come with quite a death toll!
I can only guess that those who were not tribal were killed a long time ago and any genetic tendency to be non-tribal has long gone.

Chris.

Ah right.   OK then, makes it all alright.  Mass genecide it is for anyone whos not like me and Chris said it was OK, its in my genes your honor.
I'll just pop out to the shed and polish up the bren gun and check stocks of Zyklon B.  .
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 15, 2021, 10:49:06 am
I'm definitely not tribal and I'm still here. Though as a Wolstenholme, I can guarantee my original genes are from 'over there', where it's even chillier, and men are men, etc. etc..

The Scottish fishing industry was looking pretty damn pissed off last night on the news, and not just on Channel 4 either.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on January 15, 2021, 11:01:30 am
There are more Scots & Irish in America than their home countries & just look how things are going there... (Including Donald's mom)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 15, 2021, 11:06:07 am

Well it is an essential ingredient in being human, and we are by far the most successful animal species. Clearly there's an evolutionary advantage to being tribal. Otherwise we wouldn't be because I agree it does come with quite a death toll!
I can only guess that those who were not tribal were killed a long time ago and any genetic tendency to be non-tribal has long gone.

Chris.

Ah right.   OK then, makes it all alright.  Mass genecide it is for anyone whos not like me and Chris said it was OK, its in my genes your honor.
I'll just pop out to the shed and polish up the bren gun and check stocks of Zyklon B.  .

I never said it was alright! I said it is how we are!

You can make all sorts of statements about how wrong it is, how bad it is, how it doesn't afflict you, etc. But it is within all of us (regardless of pwholes assertion that it isn't in him which I don't believe).

So politicians and leaders that try to cut across tribal lines risk all sorts drama like Brexit, like Indyref #94, like 1916.

History is absolutely rammed with it. In fact, it is pretty much all of history. My tribe is better than yours, let's sort it out with a war. Trying to magic it away just won't work.

Understanding it and accommodating it is far smarter in my view. Pretending it doesn't exist is doomed to fail. As the EU will ultimately discover.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: droid on January 15, 2021, 12:15:36 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 15, 2021, 01:22:39 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: topcat on January 15, 2021, 01:33:57 pm
The only thing we learn from history is that we never learn from history :(I

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: tony from suffolk on January 15, 2021, 01:40:28 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:
I've not checked what Nostradamus had to say about Brexit. He was certainly pretty accurate with his predictions from all those years ago. I was impressed he'd  anticipated that in 1984 the Mini Metro would be offered with a fifth gear option.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Andy Farrant on January 15, 2021, 02:00:51 pm
Yes, tribalism is endemic as a human condition, but it is possible to support more than one tribe; one can support the school rugby team at one level,   but at the same time support the village quiz team, the local County Cricket Club, the England football team, the UK Olympic squad, and Europe in the Ryder Cup. All different 'tribes'. Fortunately we have resorted to sport to assuage our tribal instincts, which is a good thing. War is never a good idea. And tribalism thrives on ignorance. The EU, for all its faults has helped the various nation states avoid conflict and tribalism by setting up institutions that help resolve issues through improved dialogue and understanding - which is why the UK's axing of the Erasmus scheme is so short sighted. This is a far better approach than sowing division, rivalry and hate which is what certain aspects of the UK media and some politicians seem to enjoy.  Look at Trump - he has done America no favours.

So I don't buy the idea that the EU will neccessarily fail due to tribal rivalries. What is sad about Brexit is that so many people do not think about the wider implications of leaving the European Union.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: aardgoose on January 15, 2021, 02:02:05 pm
If tribalism was an evolutionary adaption, it was was at a time when human society had not developed as it has, assuming that this was a trait that occurred in the human species rather than an ancestor. It certainly didn't apply to large groups. And if it was a trait that was favourable at one time, it doesn't mean it is now. So applying the excuse of tribal instincts to xenophobic, racist and isolationist policies is just that, an excuse. We have the white supremacists appealing to their Norse 'heritage' and subverting northern European runes and myths as symbols of their superiority. Groups boasting of their pure anglo-saxon genes, ignoring the fact as noted above, the anglo-saxons were an immigrant people.

That what may have been an adaption that was advantageous is now exploited by politicians to create readymade 'out groups' and enemies to scapegoat, doesn't make it something that should be accepted, to do so is pandering to the worst of humanity. We have seen what happens to scapegoats before and it isn't pretty. Also ignored is that cooperation was and is still an advantageous behaviour.  But that is conveniently ignored because it doesn't support your prejudices.

We have a government that is set upon creating an artificial cultural divide from mainland Europe to exploit and to evade responsibility for its own failures. Using tribalism to support artificial national boundaries is a poor excuse. History and linguistics demonstrate there is nothing natural about many of these boundaries. It is intellectually dishonest to say the UK is a natural 'tribal' unit, it never has been.





Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on January 15, 2021, 02:10:51 pm
Groups of apes will grow to a size where they stretch their local resources & then split off into separate families, sometimes fighting to protect & even extend their territories (as will many other species), it's nothing new - just exacerbated by our over population.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Badlad on January 15, 2021, 04:20:57 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: AR on January 15, 2021, 04:45:05 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?

Funny that long-term bets should get mentioned, there was one came up recently from a confirmed technophobe who made a bet in 1995 that everything would have gone to hell in a handcart by 2020 - https://www.wired.com/story/a-25-year-old-bet-comes-due-has-tech-destroyed-society/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fulk on January 15, 2021, 05:10:24 pm
I've a vague recollection that way back in the 50s or 60s some bright spark made a bet that there'd be a man on the moon before the end of the 1960–70s decade . . . at odds of 10,000:1 . . . .
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 15, 2021, 06:31:39 pm
You can make all sorts of statements about how wrong it is, how bad it is, how it doesn't afflict you, etc. But it is within all of us (regardless of pwholes assertion that it isn't in him which I don't believe).

I've spent decades re-programming myself to remove the trait, and it's true - it takes a lot of effort, but it's doable. I would possibly get into a fight to defend the reputation of The 13th Floor Elevators, but that's about it ;)

I would heartily recommend reading some of R. Buckminster Fuller's 'prophesies', as many of his are coming true, and generally assume most of humanity to be a good thing, endlessly improving itself. Utopia or Oblivion and Critical Path, written in the 1960s and the 1980s are stunning books, and suggest all sorts of ways that the world could be made to work better, without any hint of patronising or superior leanings, just good, honest imagination and optimism. He also constantly pointed out that the rate of technological development (measured from the birth of Jesus onwards for convenience) is an exponential curve, and that it's now approaching vertical. This is great, but it does mean that humans have to be able to keep up, otherwise we can suffer 'Future Shock' (see also Alvin Toffler's book of the same name). I suspect this is the root cause of many people's pyscho-socio-economic problems, and why anti-depressants are so damn popular.

I didn't realise that a huge series of lectures he made from 1975, 'Everything I Know' has been made available on the BFI site - I think I just found my background music for the next month ;)

https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/resources/everything-i-know (https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/resources/everything-i-know)

Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: StealthYak on January 16, 2021, 09:37:21 am
We are extremely privileged in the main.

And yet in huge act of self harm we have been persuaded to harm our economy and reduce our rights for the benefit of a few even more privileged.

Oh and I think you'll find the Oxford/AstraZenica  vaccine is being made available on a not for profit basis - not "given away free".  I know how you don't like exaggerations
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 16, 2021, 09:48:21 am
I've spent decades re-programming myself to remove the trait, and it's true - it takes a lot of effort, but it's doable. I would possibly get into a fight to defend the reputation of The 13th Floor Elevators, but that's about it ;)
It would be interesting to run a test to find out if that is true. One where you have to make a 'fight or flight' decision between 'your' tribe and the 'other' tribe, be it based on gender, age, skin colour, mode of dress, musical taste, apparent religion etc. etc. I wonder if any psychologists have investigated.

I would heartily recommend reading some of R. Buckminster Fuller's 'prophesies', as many of his are coming true, and generally assume most of humanity to be a good thing, endlessly improving itself. Utopia or Oblivion and Critical Path, written in the 1960s and the 1980s are stunning books, and suggest all sorts of ways that the world could be made to work better, without any hint of patronising or superior leanings, just good, honest imagination and optimism. He also constantly pointed out that the rate of technological development (measured from the birth of Jesus onwards for convenience) is an exponential curve, and that it's now approaching vertical. This is great, but it does mean that humans have to be able to keep up, otherwise we can suffer 'Future Shock' (see also Alvin Toffler's book of the same name). I suspect this is the root cause of many people's pyscho-socio-economic problems, and why anti-depressants are so damn popular.

I didn't realise that a huge series of lectures he made from 1975, 'Everything I Know' has been made available on the BFI site - I think I just found my background music for the next month ;)

https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/resources/everything-i-know (https://www.bfi.org/about-fuller/resources/everything-i-know)

Sadly my time for reading is limited so I do very little (maybe I should spend less time on internet fora).

I put the cause of peoples anxiety and depression down to the same reasons as tribalism. Throughout our evolution it has been essential to be on the edge when your survival has been hanging by a thread. The chances of living to old age being slim. People in our society were still starving to death in the 1800's. Now (politics aside) we have fixed all the reasons to be anxious. If you are ill, the NHS is there. If you have no money or nowhere to live, the welfare state is there. Women don't die in childbirth very often, almost all babies survive. We have never lived in such good times. Yet we are still as anxious as before!! We've fixed all of the real ills in society but we are still driven to make it better, so we are making up new ills to attack.

Our society has evolved far faster than we have, so we're well behind and not coping particularly well.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on January 16, 2021, 10:11:09 am
I suppose the closest well known experiment to your suggested test would be:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/science/how-the-nazis-defense-of-just-following-orders-plays-out-in-the-mind
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: pwhole on January 16, 2021, 12:15:40 pm

Our society has evolved far faster than we have, so we're well behind and not coping particularly well.


That's pretty much what Fuller and Toffler were driving at - as technology speeds up life, we have to keep up, otherwise we start hitting things like 'anomie':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anomie

There's a great photography book by a guy called Michael Lesy from the 1970s - Wisconsin Death Trip. It's a compilation of photos from a small town, Black River Falls, in the midwest US in the late 19th Century. Most of the settlers were from German and Scandanavian stock, and the town wasn't doing so well, it being a frontier, with not much mineral wealth and the soil wasn't that great etc. Basically it was a bad place to settle. As their traditional customs faded in the memory, but with nothing practical to replace them with (especially not the Native American customs, which were alien at best to them and lethal at worst), and little way of making any serious money, many in the town began to go slowly insane, and a wave of murders and suicides began to take hold. The place was defined later as a classic example of societal anomie. It was made into a docu-drama in the late 90s, but the book is much better as you get to stare at the faces of these desperately sad people for as long as you need to. There's a guy mowing a lawn in there who is the spitting image of me - it's uncanny and made me feel quite weird when I saw it.

Anyway, I think that's where we're headed if we don't keep on top of stuff, as it's only going to get faster - but this is partly why we also have Covid vaccines so quickly. It might seem a remote concept on paper, but social media is precisely the tool that's accelerating it, by providing ordinary people with the buzz and the tools, but with no master plan, and zero loyalty from the companies to their consumer-customers. That guy Zuckerberg seems a total fraud and looks petrified most of the time. Probably just like the newspaper proprietor and the bank manager in Black River Falls were. Master of all he surveys and yet a total prisoner of it, like a rabbit in the headlights, as he doesn't know what to do, now he has it all.

Of course, if folks were on top of it we could have most of these problems solved rather quickly, but old attachments run deep it seems. Last August was the best opportunity we've had in years and the majority blew it. We need to get on with 'foreigners' better and work out where their heads are at relative to ours, as we all want the same stuff in the end. Money, hugs, laughter and better orgasms for all, mostly.

The rest is all just distraction fluff ;)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: mikem on January 16, 2021, 03:51:29 pm
Easter Island is probably one of the better documented examples of that, although lacking in photos to being it home.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 17, 2021, 10:07:19 pm
Hmm. Two electronics companies I regularly use will now not ship to Britain. One in Portugal run by an expat where I bought synthesiser chips from, and one in Bulgaria which provided really cheap general semiconductors. I guess they may become available again, but both are hampered by friction registering deliveries electronically with the good old British Post Office as post Brexit rules came into force. Serves me right for not getting my stuff from the Far East I suppose. Obviously, not earth shattering, but it is a bit of a pain in the proverbial. I suspect the Portuguese one will be resurrected as I think he already ships a lot to the UK so it would be worth his while getting the postal integrations done, but I expect the Bulgarian one is now gone, which would be a shame.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 18, 2021, 10:13:54 am
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?

Sorry - forgot to answer. 47, and a token £100. Just got to agree the measurable unequivocal terms!

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on January 18, 2021, 12:25:26 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?

Sorry - forgot to answer. 47, and a token £100. Just got to agree the measurable unequivocal terms!

Chris.

When inflation kicks in, at least in part caused by your Brexit, your bet will be worth next to nothing by the time it's claimed. 

Brexiteers always did speak with forked tongue!   :tease:

(No offence, old chap - just couldn't resist, tee hee!   :lol:  )
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: wellyjen on January 18, 2021, 12:47:39 pm
Nostradamus is in the house!  :lol:

I'm happy to be quoted! I'll bet anyone that in 20 years I will have been proven correct!

Chris.

How old are you?  .....and how much?

Sorry - forgot to answer. 47, and a token £100. Just got to agree the measurable unequivocal terms!

Chris.

When inflation kicks in, at least in part caused by your Brexit, your bet will be worth next to nothing by the time it's claimed. 

Brexiteers always did speak with forked tongue!   :tease:

(No offence, old chap - just couldn't resist, tee hee!   :lol:  )

You should agree an alternative in turnips. The £100, or the turnips. Whichever is the most desirable in 20 years.  :)
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on January 18, 2021, 01:09:00 pm
 :lol:    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: ChrisJC on January 18, 2021, 01:32:05 pm

Sorry - forgot to answer. 47, and a token £100. Just got to agree the measurable unequivocal terms!

Chris.

When inflation kicks in, at least in part caused by your Brexit, your bet will be worth next to nothing by the time it's claimed. 

Brexiteers always did speak with forked tongue!   :tease:

(No offence, old chap - just couldn't resist, tee hee!   :lol:  )

That did occur to me. My usual long term bets are £20, but I thought that 20 years in the economic wilderness that I have caused would make it derisory.

Chris.
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Pitlamp on January 18, 2021, 02:32:54 pm
Fair comment Chris!   :clap2:

Meanwhile: https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2021/01/18/brexit-carnage-20-shellfish-trucks-protest-over-export-chaos/
Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: Fjell on January 18, 2021, 02:43:39 pm
I’ll eat them. It’s quite hard to get good shellfish. And that’s because they export most of the good stuff. You can get it in restaurants or shops on the west coast of Scotland, but rarely elsewhere in any quantity.

The industry has done very little for decades to get people in the UK to eat anything but cod and haddock, which is a problem given we have to import most of it.

Restaurants are closed in most of Europe. Who are they flogging it to?




Title: Re: Brexit
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 18, 2021, 03:49:00 pm
The industry has done very little for decades to get people in the UK to eat anything but cod and haddock, which is a problem given we have to import most of it.

Yep, and even when we do fish for cod and haddock, it's from subpolar waters to which we currently have no quotas for. The crown jewel in the UKs distance fishing fleet, the Kirkella, is laid up in Hull, unable to go fishing.
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