UK Caving

WHERE THE CAVES ARE - The Caving Regions => Peak District => Topic started by: Iain Barker on November 26, 2009, 07:18:41 pm

Title: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Iain Barker on November 26, 2009, 07:18:41 pm
Well, Francis Lincoln have decided that COPD is not for them.
John (Beck) and myself are investigating other avenues (again).
If this book had been put out before the credit crunch we would be reading it now. Bugger.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pete K on November 26, 2009, 10:05:36 pm
Was hoping to get a copy in my stocking this year, shame about the setback.

I for one appreciate the work going into this and the delays will make it all the more appreciated when it does arrive.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on November 26, 2009, 11:02:04 pm
Iain,Have you tried Dr. D Mitchell @ scarthin books . I had conversation with him  earlier this year, would be worth 'at least'  a word with him I'm sure. With best regards & thanks for your first volume.
Owd Git.  P.S. :beer2:
 ( Re- new cave discovered! Winster way. any post-able news?)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Turner on November 27, 2009, 12:19:03 am
:'( need the new testament :(
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SLP on November 28, 2009, 02:30:29 pm
I've expressed this view before and been shot down in flames but I personally think it's time for “Caves of the Peak District” to be published on-line in PDF.  Getting low volume publications printed is usually difficult and expensive.  I know the intention is there, and those involved have put a tremendous amount of work into the “book” and deserve an enormous amount of credit but it seems a shame to have all the information locked away where no one can access it.  Don't get me wrong, I prefer real books, but I think we're at a stage where an accessible PDF publication makes more sense. Future proof, maintainable, accessible and cheaper.  I don't know what everyone else thinks but it would be interesting to know.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on November 28, 2009, 03:02:35 pm
It's an interesting thought - and I speak as the editor of a guide published only a few years ago that has made sufficient money to cover its costs and more.

I am writing this on a netbook on which I could store and read such a pdf. With sufficient power and battery life to be used in the field and sufficiently flexible to pick up files either via WiFi or a broadband dongle.

It might just be that the future of cave guides is web-based, possibly even via a wiki?

Comments?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: teabag on November 28, 2009, 04:56:16 pm
I'd pay for a download and still buy the book if it was ever printed! I want the information it contains, but I still like to browse through a book.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on November 28, 2009, 05:15:36 pm

I'm assuming you have explored these, but are there any "print on demand" publishers that you could use?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: underground on November 28, 2009, 07:30:57 pm
I've expressed this view before and been shot down in flames but I personally think it's time for “Caves of the Peak District” to be published on-line in PDF.  Getting low volume publications printed is usually difficult and expensive.  I know the intention is there, and those involved have put a tremendous amount of work into the “book” and deserve an enormous amount of credit but it seems a shame to have all the information locked away where no one can access it.  Don't get me wrong, I prefer real books, but I think we're at a stage where an accessible PDF publication makes more sense. Future proof, maintainable, accessible and cheaper.  I don't know what everyone else thinks but it would be interesting to know.

Totally agree - Life on a Line is available as a pdf, or you pay a reasonable sum of money and they print on demand, as bubba suggested.

I subscribe to a magazine via 'Exact Editions' - read it online and save / print any pages I need as pdfs - which are stamped with my email address in case I decide to start selling them!

I think it is a massive shame to forego a full printed volume, as the opportunities for reading are precisely those where I'm not at a computer - and you'd be buggered for leafingt hrough in the pub / hut as a visiting caver who only printed P8 and giant's when both of them were too wet on your choisen weekend.

The P.O.D / pdf option seems the best of both worlds IMO.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Anon on November 28, 2009, 07:38:09 pm
My thoughts are similar to teabags: I have made a lot of usage of the internet, PDFs, etc for caving related matters and it is a great resource, but call me old-fashioned, I still prefer to have a book to read. I don't own a laptop, notebook or whatever (nor do I intend purchasing one as I have no need to) so having to power up the computer and view a PDF when I want information on a certain cave limits the usability of such a guide, for me anyway.

So if I had to choose one or the other; my vote still goes for a book rather than a PDF etc - although both formats would be useful! 
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on November 28, 2009, 08:04:16 pm
I have been a subscriber to POD for a number of books and journals for a few years now. The POD printer (I am the publisher) I have been using is "OK", but I want to move on to a better quality. I would not consider using my current route for a regional caves guide - it would not be robust enough.

However, I have now got my sights on a new printer, and this one is wholly UK based, which has to be a good thing. I have sent off for a free sample pack, and there is a good choice of better and higher gauge papers and covers available. I shall be producing a second edition of Malcolm Tadd's "Underground Reigate" book shortly, using this new printer if all goes well. Although they do not do VERY small print runs economically (1-20 copies), I am comfortable with the price they will charge for a run as low as 50, which is well below the sales volume for any popular regional guide, and easily manageable for making sequential small print runs if initial outlay is a problem. Just use the income from the first sales to fund the next lot. The only drawback is that this printer will only produce A5 or A4 products at a sensible price - other sizes you pay for the A5 or A4 print which they then trim to size. If there is no rush, you might like to wait until I have ordered my first batch of the book I mentioned to see what they can do. If you can't wait, PM me and I will send details of the printer, and you can investigate them for yourself.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on November 29, 2009, 07:15:19 am
A book works better actually down a cave, or perhaps in the slinging rain on some draughty fellside. (Yes, I realise photocopies are always possible but you don't always know in advance exactly which pages you might want to consult.) Besides, people who have done work behind the scenes did it for a book - not for a website, so let's not pull the rug from under them. A book is a good statement of the state of exploration at a certain time. A book has a deadline, which make people get off their backsides and submit information about new stuff rather than leaving it till some other time because they can always upload it whenever they want. A book is always sitting there on the shelf to be consulted without having to fire up the machine. A book is more environmentally friendly because it's recyclable and it doesn't consume sparks every time you want to look at it. A book doesn't require memorising yet another infernal username and password. But above all else, let's not forget that books are nice!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on November 29, 2009, 08:33:44 am
Pitlamp

I wholeheartedly agree that books are nice. But if no-one will publish them ...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on November 29, 2009, 09:14:38 am
I think the best thing underground is a laminated page but yeah, books are nice - everyone likes to read their guide on the bog or on the couch :)

It'd be awesome if there was a book and a website where you could order a laminated page for a particular cave for a small fee.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Clive G on November 29, 2009, 11:56:30 am
I have had people suggest to me that I could simply put my Llangattock book up on the web or publish it as a CD . . .

Well, since the research for this book started in 1985 and the writing in October 1990, with completed drafts in 1994, 1998, 2002 and 2009 (when I've completed the Carno Adit exploration update later today, Lapworth's geological report once a copy arrives from the archive in a few days and the Daren Cilau 2002-09 exploration update . . . before Christmas!) then I have no intention of not publishing it, as Pitlamp suggests, "a good statement of the state of exploration at a certain time", in book form.

Peter has got to the nub of the problem which is finding a suitable printing firm. The quality of the print job and advice given in terms of satisfactory reproduction of the illustrations is all critical. However, if the costs mount and hidden charges later appear on the bill then the whole operation could end up being a loss-making enterprise unless a reasonable, not too expensive sale price can be set to attract people to buy the book.

Things like proof reading, designing the layout, sorting out ISBN numbers and making sure the proper legal checks and statements have been made are where authors normally opt out of the equation, but it's worth surmounting these difficulties to get a specialist caving publication into the marketplace when there are otherwise no publishers around like Dalesman to do what they used to do 30 years ago. Also, any publisher that does pick up on your work might have a completely different idea as to what is 'commercial' and you could end up finding that you have signed a contract which sends all your rights and the creative heart of your work to the wall - all quite 'legally'.

How many years was it 'Limestones and caves of Wales' was in the making? I can't remember how many authors had actually died by the time the book appeared, but the achievement was this it DID appear in the end, against the odds. Perhaps delays and setbacks are there to help give you time to iron out the mistakes, omissions and weaknesses, which you'd later be very pleased not to see in print!

I've given a caver a printed copy of a few pages from my Daren Cilau guide from the additional Llangattock guidebook which I've also written, but foundered when Mendip Publishing went under in 1994. The intention is to publish this as a book, too, on the back of the returns from the exploration story and local history section. What this caver was busy doing when I last spoke to him on the telephone was copying and laminating the pages to be able to take them underground, which will help me find out if the guide actually works in practice, when someone who doesn't know where they are going in the cave tries to use it! This is exactly what I'd expect cavers to do with the guidebook itself, when it is finally published. So, the pages will be laid up with appropriate drawings to show complex junctions against the associated descriptions in the text - taking such factors into consideration.

A web-page which looks attractive and interesting, which you can easily scroll down through, without too many words to slow you down on the way, is a completely different art form.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on November 29, 2009, 04:02:18 pm
It is also worth bearing in mind the new COPD, like its predecessors, has been created by volunteers. Their work, which was a long and difficult process, is almost complete. It has been designed with the end result in mind: a book. It is just a question of getting the printing done.

Producing the book in an alternative form or via another media would require yet more work, no matter how small you imagine this might be, it wouldn't be as trivial as you might first expect. It never is.


Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on November 29, 2009, 06:54:45 pm
I apologise if this has been said before (which it may well have been - sadly I don't have enough time to read everything on this excellent forum) but would Lulu be any good? I don't really know much about the mechanics of printing a book but I know certain people who have made use of Lulu for similar projects to good effect.

Any good?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on November 29, 2009, 07:21:38 pm
Lulu is my chosen POD provider. But I am moving away from them for new projects. Their reliability varies, their delivery charges have just gone up substantially, and the quality of paper for both contents and covers is "average", and you don't get a choice. Certainly not good enough quality for a regional guide that will probably be put through its paces. You need quite a heavy gauge of paper and a sturdy cover.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: martinr on November 29, 2009, 09:11:25 pm
Did you see this report on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8382626.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8382626.stm)

and a link:
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/browse/espresso.jsp (http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/browse/espresso.jsp)
"Aspiring authors can also take advantage of the new EBM technology, uploading their work in person from a CD or flash drive, to see their written creations professionally printed, bound and trimmed into perfectly packaged library-quality paperback books indistinguishable from traditional published works. "
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on November 30, 2009, 12:55:53 pm
Iain, you have hopeful p.m. :thumbsup:
Owd Git.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on November 30, 2009, 05:49:00 pm
Great Hucklow Community Publishing? have just produced a cracking book called Lead in the Veins about mining in the Hucklow area.

I don't know how they got it published but I suspect it wouldn't have been a huge print run.

Maybe Nick Williams can put you in contact with someone?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on December 06, 2009, 09:04:34 am
Iain, you have hopeful p.m. :thumbsup:
Owd Git.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: C.Raven on December 06, 2009, 01:27:25 pm
Have you tried the Not For The Faint Hearted publisher Purprise Press.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: speleotel on December 07, 2009, 03:07:03 am


It might just be that the future of cave guides is web-based, possibly even via a wiki?

Comments?

A caving community built guide to UK caves; easy to navigate, with up to the moment information of the systems; water levels witnessed, recent boulder movement, observations on state of formations, rigging advice, access arrangements, new developments etc? (but also monitored carefully to avoid misinformation)

If it was developed without disintegration into disagreement and without having to scroll through several pages of correspondence - sounds as though it would be very useful. Does it exist already?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on December 07, 2009, 09:24:54 am
Could you elaborate on "monitored carefully"?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on December 07, 2009, 03:37:13 pm


It might just be that the future of cave guides is web-based, possibly even via a wiki?

Comments?

A caving community built guide to UK caves; easy to navigate, with up to the moment information of the systems; water levels witnessed, recent boulder movement, observations on state of formations, rigging advice, access arrangements, new developments etc? (but also monitored carefully to avoid misinformation)

If it was developed without disintegration into disagreement and without having to scroll through several pages of correspondence - sounds as though it would be very useful. Does it exist already?


Durrr..

http://www.ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php/Caving_Regions_of_the_UK_and_Eire (http://www.ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php/Caving_Regions_of_the_UK_and_Eire)

get writing then
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Goydenman on December 07, 2009, 04:15:03 pm
I have made my contribution and will continue to do so  :ang:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on December 07, 2009, 04:26:45 pm
Indeed - and so have a few other band of dedicated wiki'ists'
 :bow:

No reason why it shouldn't develop a veritable 'mine' (sorry) of information. I think its pretty well suited for the writing of a particular caves history, as hopefully the people who are digging/have dug etc could contribute, so you get it from the horses mouth.

- Hmm, reminds me, I've got some updating to do myself
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SLP on December 07, 2009, 10:28:18 pm
Just for interest - this is the number of PDF guides downloaded from the Peak District Caving web site during November. Some are bound to be idle downloads but the numbers mirror the popularity of the caves quite well. So PDF seems to work for some......

131 Giant's Hole Part 1 (The Entrance to Garlands Pot)
75 Stoney Middleton Cave Index (main index of locations and access info)
75 Castleton Cave Index (main index of locations and access info)
63 Oxlow Cavern
55 Giant's Hole Part 2 (Garlands Pot to Eating House and The Upper Series)
49 Titan
48 P8
42 Peak Cavern Part 1 (The Main Stream Cave and Far Sump)
41 Lathkill Dale Cave Index (main index of locations and access info)
35 Sidetrack Cave
34 J.H. (James Hall's Over Engine Mine)
32 Eldon Hole
31 Caves of Cave Dale
31 Rowter Hole
31 Gautries Hole
30 Odin Mine
30 Bradwell Area Cave Index (main index of locations and access info)
24 Speedwell Cavern Part 1 (The entrance to Main Rising & Cliff Cavern)
21 P7
21 Hangover Hole
20 Peak Cavern Part 2 (Victoria Aven)
16 Peak Cavern Part 4 (Pickering's Passage)
16 Peak Cavern Part 7 (Treasury and the links to Speedwell Cavern)
16 Speedwell Cavern Part 3 (The Assault Course & Pilkingtons Series)
15 Peak Cavern Part 8 (The White River Series)
15 Speedwell Cavern Part 4 (The Bung Hole Series)
15 Speedwell Cavern Part 2 (The Halfway House Series)
15 Speedwell Cavern Part 5 (Wirlpool Passage)
15 Peak Cavern Part Part 5 (The Galena Chamber Circuit & the NCC Shafts)
13 Peak Cavern Part Part 6 (Lake Passage and Ink Sump)
12 Peak Cavern Part Part 3 (Far Sump Extension)

http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/peak_district_cave_information.htm (http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/peak_district_cave_information.htm)

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SLP on December 07, 2009, 10:49:16 pm
While I'm on, a personal view, I don't like the idea of a free for all wiki.  I think guides, if they're going to be any good, have to be edited by an individual, or a reliable group, in order to retain a consistent style.

I'm not saying our Peak District Caving PDF guides are any good but at least if you understand one of them the others will make sense as well.

I Still prefer books but still think PDF is the way forward.....
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: AndyF on December 07, 2009, 11:38:06 pm
Sadly, any PDF wopuld get pirated and copied.

I know that doing a guide book is not done for money, but jeeps these guys deserve to get something out of it for their efforts... though Im sure they are too modest to say so...  ;D
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: robjones on December 08, 2009, 12:26:22 am
Cannot BCA / DCA / a consortium of locally active clubs cooperate to put up the capital to get it published and then be (mostly - hopefully entirely) paid back from ongoing sales?

Was this not the route (more or less) that "Limestones and caves of ..." series got published? There is a key place for both scientific regional books and solid guidebooks (leaving aside the 'best caves of...' type titles) and filling such gaps should surely be, in extremis, a role for BCA / regional councils to take up.

An alternative commerial publisher also strikes me - Wild Places (i.e. Chris Howes / Descent): it published Jim Eyre's autobiography; surely a guide to a major region would do even better?

One only has to consider the prices second hand copies of 'Caves of Derbyshire' reach, and how well 'Classic Caves of the Peak District' do (the latter, I suspect bought in desperation, with, I believe, a majority of purchasers probably prefering to have bought a comprehensive guidebook instead) to detect a viable market.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Kevlar on December 08, 2009, 12:30:17 am
75 Stoney Middleton Cave Index (main index of locations and access info)

Surely that's just the Pembertons  :clap2: :ras:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Big Jim on December 08, 2009, 09:53:08 am
They dont need any guides, JonP OWNS all of Stoney Dale now, I think John Beck signed it over to them this year.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Big Jim on December 08, 2009, 09:54:17 am
PS. from now on it is to be known as Pemberton Dale. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on December 08, 2009, 10:57:16 am
 :lol:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on December 08, 2009, 11:17:11 am
I seem to remember that profits made from the sales of the Northern Caves guides were retained in a fund, the intention of which was to help caving publications in the future. Of course the new NC guides may have accounted for this already but it might be worth asking one of the editors of the existing series? Or could BCA council help? I'm not necessarily suggesting tha BCA underwrites it directly but there are many switched on people involved who may have some valuable ideas about potential sources of funding to help drive this project onwards?

There will be a way . . .
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: andychapm on December 08, 2009, 04:39:31 pm
Quote
JonP OWNS all of Stoney Dale now
we've just discovered castleton now!!! ;)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on December 08, 2009, 05:29:10 pm
The problem with publishing is not lack of funds - it's lack of publishers!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Les W on December 08, 2009, 05:31:17 pm
Why not self publish then? It's not hard.
Peter Burgess does it, Wessex does it, BCRA and BCA do it, CSCC does it. It's not rocket science or a trade secret.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 08, 2009, 05:53:40 pm
I have published a 1000 print run for Shropshire Mines Trust. It was a piece of cake.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on December 08, 2009, 07:27:48 pm
we've just discovered castleton now!!! ;)

Aye, I didn't think you would last long in Stoney,  ;D
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SLP on December 08, 2009, 10:03:52 pm
Sadly, any PDF would get pirated and copied.

Is that not the whole idea? Information provided by cavers for cavers? The information within guides comes from hundreds of sources. The content can still be protected under copyright but do we need to protect it from ourselves? 
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: andychapm on December 09, 2009, 12:20:03 am
Quote
Aye, I didn't think you would last long in Stoney,   
we'll be back!! :)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 09, 2009, 12:43:50 am
Is that not the whole idea? Information provided by cavers for cavers?
That's not the idea as far as I can make out - people want to make money from the new guide... which I guess is fair enough given the amount of effort that they put in.

That said, there's nothing to stop things like the wiki on this site (with a print to PDF function) replacing such guides in the future.



Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Clive G on December 09, 2009, 01:18:09 am
Sadly, any PDF would get pirated and copied.

Is that not the whole idea? Information provided by cavers for cavers? The information within guides comes from hundreds of sources. The content can still be protected under copyright but do we need to protect it from ourselves?

And the reason that the information is available between two covers is that someone has spent hundreds or thousands of hours collating, refining, checking, amending, expanding, updating and presenting that information.

You are not only buying the information, but the manner in which it has been checked and presented. Provided the author(s) is/are good at their job, then you will be able to rely on the content.

Of course the author(s) should be recompensed for their work. This is the whole principle on which society is based. Try telling your accountant or a lawyer that all they've got to do is give you a little free information, which 'won't cost them anything but time' to pass on . . .

However, the fact is, to get paid you have to produce the finished product - and for that you need a suitable printing firm and also good advice from someone who has published before concerning the legal aspects: copyright, clearance for using the illustrations, disclaimer(s), ISBN no., cataloguing information  . . .  etc.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SLP on December 09, 2009, 05:04:30 am
Part of my living comes from selling books and I'm keen to protect my future by promoting properly published works.  However, I think specialist guides with minority audiences like this are in the main a labour of love for all involved and are based upon previous editions and a massive amount of work by all authors, editors and contributors, past and present. These days they're not a way to make money.  I stand to be corrected but I doubt Iain or John set out on the current project to make money, but if they did, that's fine by me. Yes, a real book would be good, as would the generation of funds to cover costs and future editions but as someone who's been involved with publishers for over 25 years I can't help but question the viability of minority publications like this with the world the way it is now. I would like to see another real book, to sit along side previous editions on my shelf. I like CD's not mp3's, I like shops not web sites, hand pulled pints....

We've had enquiries about this guide every week since the 1991 edition went out of print, which was over ten years ago. As a caver, I think it's a shame that the younger generation of cavers are still without the information and inspiration that a guide like this provides. It was the old pink '84 edition in part that inspired us to discover the caves that we have.

Iain, you've been very quiet since you started this thred. What are your thoughts at the mo?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on December 09, 2009, 06:41:35 am
Wrong! All the information IS actually available if people are willing to go to the obvious sources. How many cavers make the simple effort of reading journals in a club library for example (where you'll get far more information than can be squeezed into a single area guide). How many serious exploratory cavers ever refuse a genuine request for advice or information from keen newer cavers (unless they have reasons for not making it public, in which case it'd not appear in web form anyway).

There's lots of of people who post comments about information not being available when what they really mean is their magic box of tricks can't find it at the press of a few buttons. Those who are seriously interested will always find what they want.

There's nowt wrong with web based stuff complementing a printed guide book (and of course vice versa); SLP might remember how I went to some effort to write material for his own excellent online guides. But for reasons posted earlier a physical book actually has several advantages over a web based approach (and, it has to be said, some disadvantages).

I think Iain is "quiet" because he's busy actually sorting this one out.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SLP on December 09, 2009, 11:58:18 am
In the end I think we're all barking up the same tree...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 09, 2009, 01:31:30 pm

I made some scans of the old 1991 book available online at a password protected website so that friends could access such information.

I was threatened with legal action to take it down.

I can only surmise from this that they're in it for the money. If not, why attempt to legally block the restricted online publication of an out of print book? It would hardly have affected the sales of a new guide since as has been said, everyone likes to have a real book to read and anyway, the information was well out of date anyway.

If they cared about information being freely available then they wouldn't have spat out their dummys. Just look at something like Google Books for example.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on December 09, 2009, 02:46:24 pm


And the reason that the information is available between two covers is that  ONE SINGLE PERSON has spent hundreds or thousands of hours collating, refining, checking, amending, expanding, updating and presenting that information.


Why get one person to do all the work (recompense is only fair in this situation) when you can get hundreds nay thousands of volunteers to do the work.
Everybody is worried about the quality of the information. Who is best placed to write up the info on various caves... The people who've actually been down them of course.
Iains a good bloke, but I doubt very much he's been down every bit of every cave in the guide.
And info on an wiki is peer reviewed. If you read something on there that you know to be carp - then you can log on and correct the information. You can even see who's updated the info from the logs, and malicious users can be banned from contributing etc.

 I really cant see the argument for saying
"This one lad here is right about everything, it says so in his book that was published before the choke was passed and the main 3 pitches were re-bolted... however that stuff that on the web that is constantly updated by those people at the front end of it must be an in factual load of rubbish. "

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the guide, I'll be more than happy to pay for my copy, and I'll enjoy reading it on the bog.
But my only problem with it , is that it will become out of date very quickly.

Actually - hurry up and get the bloody thing published cause that means a shit load of cave will be discovered a week after it hits the shelves  :lol:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: khakipuce on December 09, 2009, 02:54:04 pm
Bubba: I believe Google books pays the rights holder for use of the content, or puts a selection of pages on as a way of promoting the book. I also believe there is an issue with things becoming public domain if the rights holder does not enforce their copyright.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on December 09, 2009, 04:15:35 pm
The basis on which earlier editions of CoPD were published by Dalesman was that volunteer cavers did the work and DCA was given the royalties - which were spent on maintaining access for cavers.  (This isn't cheap to do!)  Sadly, after a change of ownership, Dalesman remaindered the 1991 edn. without telling us what they were going to do and then dropped out of publishing such guidebooks altogether.

We have looked at lulu and other such routes for publishing/printing ourselves but have concluded that we really needed to go with a professional firm to do the standard of job we want.  The credit crunch has made life difficult for the moment but we do intend to go ahead.

John, Iain and others have put a tremendous amount of work into the new CoPD and we're very nearly there.  DCA itself has agreed to underwrite the publication and, naturally, will expect to get a return on its money - which will be spent as before, i.e. in maintaining access for all cavers.
 
There is a place for web-based information, particularly for access information which needs to be updated regularly, and we will make sure this appears on the DCA website.  But you can't beat a good book!

Hopefully, once the last few problems have been ironed out, we'll be able to go ahead and those who love books will get what they've been waiting for so patiently. 

Jenny Potts,
DCA Secretary
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on December 09, 2009, 05:14:56 pm
no. work does not become "public domain" if the copyright owner does not notice or object to any breach of copyright.

google work on the basis that they scan a book and only let you see a page thats relevant to your search. if you want to see the rest of the article / book you need to buy it from amazon.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Brains on December 09, 2009, 05:38:32 pm
Have moneies waiting and thumbs at the ready to dog ear the pages and generally fox the new book.... Hope it is at least as sturdy as the '91 edition - the cover has come off mine now  :(
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 10, 2009, 04:19:50 am
google work on the basis that they scan a book and only let you see a page thats relevant to your search. if you want to see the rest of the article / book you need to buy it from amazon.
This isn't true - Google Books has many out of print titles you can't buy anywhere. There are many full preview books and many public-domain books too. They will be offering a service whereby an out of print book will be able to be purchased from them online in the future.

Anyway, imo, not allowing an out of print book to be shown online, even though the information within it is over 15 years old is just petty and restrictive to the community that is crying out for it.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: caving_fox on December 10, 2009, 02:03:12 pm
It's OT but 
Quote
Anyway, imo, not allowing an out of print book to be shown online, even though the information within it is over 15 years old is just petty and restrictive to the community that is crying out for it.

Is massively unfair to the authors though. Hence the lawsuits over Google books. Those living authors still deserve their compensation for the time they put in to creating those books, which Google is denying them.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 10, 2009, 02:09:29 pm
As everything I have written is self-published using POD, then strictly speaking, the books were permanently out of print from the day they were published (or so I have read somewhere). Each small batch I order is another print run. When they are all sold, they are out of print again. I would be seriously p155ed off if someone started posting them up on a website thinking it was OK because they were "out of print".
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 10, 2009, 02:38:09 pm
Is massively unfair to the authors though. Hence the lawsuits over Google books. Those living authors still deserve their compensation for the time they put in to creating those books, which Google is denying them.
If a book is out of print, and has been for years then the authors aren't being denied anything since they would be getting no income from it anyway.

The new agreements that Google are putting in place will actually allow some recompense for such authors without them needing to re-publish.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 10, 2009, 02:41:05 pm
But you are removing from them the incentive to do another print run, if they so choose. Not so relevant for a book with out of date information though.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 10, 2009, 02:42:10 pm
As everything I have written is self-published using POD, then strictly speaking, the books were permanently out of print from the day they were published (or so I have read somewhere). Each small batch I order is another print run. When they are all sold, they are out of print again. I would be seriously p155ed off if someone started posting them up on a website thinking it was OK because they were "out of print".
Well that's a totally different scenario - the COTPD wasn't being printed on demand, it just stayed out of print for what is currently almost 19 years.

Anyway, I'm sure the new one will solve everything if it's ever published...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 10, 2009, 02:42:37 pm
But you are removing from them the incentive to do another print run, if they so choose. Not so relevant for a book with out of date information though.
Well how long were they going to wait? 20 years? 30 years? There was never going to be another print run.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 10, 2009, 02:46:43 pm
I was making a general comment - each book will have different circumstances.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 10, 2009, 02:55:12 pm
But you are removing from them the incentive to do another print run, if they so choose. Not so relevant for a book with out of date information though.
Well how long were they going to wait? 20 years? 30 years? There was never going to be another print run.

Maybe the question should not be "is it OK to put an out of print book online" but "who should decide whether it is OK to put an out of print book online". I say it is the author's choice.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Clive G on December 10, 2009, 03:38:07 pm


And the reason that the information is available between two covers is that  ONE SINGLE PERSON has spent hundreds or thousands of hours collating, refining, checking, amending, expanding, updating and presenting that information.


. . .

Ah, but that's not a quotation from me is it? ! ! !  :annoyed:

You've changed the words and put your revision in capitals for emphasis!

Here's what I actually said:

. . .

And the reason that the information is available between two covers is that someone has spent hundreds or thousands of hours collating, refining, checking, amending, expanding, updating and presenting that information.

. . .

'Someone' could be a single person or a whole team of authors or collaborators/contributors - which is why I chose the word carefully in the way that I did. I've used the singular and plural senses (for confirmation) in the paragraph which follows immediately: "Provided the author(s) is/are good at their job, then you will be able to rely on the content."

However, just putting information together ad hoc from numerous different sources isn't necessarily going to produce a meaningful or coherent overview. And writing a paragraph or two to update details of new passage found in any one particular cave isn't going to be sufficient work to pull a considered guidebook together.

Doing things like this (and getting away with it) helps give UKCaving the name that it has amongst a number of respected cavers - but I'm happy to continue posting, where I think I can help improve things!   :)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 10, 2009, 05:02:33 pm
Doing things like this (and getting away with it) helps give UKCaving the name that it has amongst a number of respected cavers - but I'm happy to continue posting, where I think I can help improve things!   :)
What exactly are we 'getting away with'?  Oh and thanks for gracing us with your presence....  For  the record I couldn't give a fuck what sort of name this site has amongst your 'respected cavers'. 
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 10, 2009, 06:20:07 pm
Well said, Bubba. Some of the most respected cavers (by me that is) are members of this forum, and some are not. Some are well-known throughout the UK and some are not. What respect does someone who thinks UKCaving is 'beneath them' deserve? What relevance could it possibly have? Respect is a personal thing, and I'm sure we would all come up with different lists if asked.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on December 10, 2009, 07:15:14 pm

Ah, but that's not a quotation from me is it? ! ! !  :annoyed:

You've changed the words and put your revision in capitals for emphasis!


I think it was a genuine mistake on Sam's part, I think he accidently pressed CAPSLOCK when he really meant to press delete.




Doing things like this (and getting away with it) helps give UKCaving the name that it has amongst a number of respected cavers - but I'm happy to continue posting, where I think I can help improve things!   :)


As a Respected Derbyshire Caver I am glad you approve of UKcaving's moderators policy of being able to do what the fuck they want, or did I read that wrong,

If you don't like it stick to whinging in the Welsh section

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Clive G on December 10, 2009, 07:45:12 pm
. . .

I think it was a genuine mistake on Sam's part, I think he accidently . . .



. . . I am glad you approve of UKcaving's moderators policy of being able to do what the fuck they want, or did I read that wrong,

If you don't like it stick to whinging in the Welsh section

W H A T ? !   :thumbsdown:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Clive G on December 10, 2009, 08:53:58 pm
. . .

As a Respected Derbyshire Caver I am glad you approve of UKcaving's moderators policy of being able to do what the fuck they want, or did I read that wrong,

If you don't like it stick to whinging in the Welsh section

OK, then the work I was going to do (for free) to try and track down a copy of the Gautries film and obtain permission for it to be used by the diggers currently pushing the new breakthrough in the cave is on HOLD.

I've objected to having my words misquoted - quite reasonably.

Unchecked behaviour has caused a number of people to consider that UKCaving should be closed down for being so negative and giving cavers and caving a bad name as a result. Whether you choose to prove them wrong, right or simply just don't care . . . is entirely up to you.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 10, 2009, 08:58:04 pm
Closed down by whom? Really, Clive, what planet are you on? If you think UKCaving is 'bad', I suggest you go and check out a few other message boards! This one, despite some pretty daft posts at times, is a very well-behaved and intelligent community!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Turner on December 10, 2009, 09:43:05 pm
. . .

As a Respected Derbyshire Caver I am glad you approve of UKcaving's moderators policy of being able to do what the fuck they want, or did I read that wrong,

If you don't like it stick to whinging in the Welsh section

OK, then the work I was going to do (for free) to try and track down a copy of the Gautries film and obtain permission for it to be used by the diggers currently pushing the new breakthrough in the cave is on HOLD.

I've objected to having my words misquoted - quite reasonably.

Unchecked behaviour has caused a number of people to consider that UKCaving should be closed down for being so negative and giving cavers and caving a bad name as a result. Whether you choose to prove them wrong, right or simply just don't care . . . is entirely up to you.

you not going to share your sweeties either??? get with it ffs........
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on December 10, 2009, 10:50:17 pm
Oh for fucks sake.... not the old 'moderators can do what they want and get away with it' bollocks.

Anyone can quote someone on this forum and change the contents. Its nowt to do with being a moderator. I did it deliberately (and used caps to make sure people could see it)

I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A VALID BLEEDING POINT

i... fucking ... e.......

that it is indeed a hell of a lot of work for one OR TWO OR THREE OR EVEN t.....e.....n people...

but its no effort for the thousands out there if they have the ability to contribute to something.

I could write all there is to know about Claires cave.. or Durham edge swallet in an hour or so... but it would be right ball ache for someone else to be bothered to go out, find them, explore them, speak to the right people about who dug what when etc.

Jesus wept.... I dont know why I bother sometimes.. Clive, its totally pedantic, paranoid and lets face it, utterly useless whiny posts like your last couple that turn people right off UKcaving.. and I don't blame them.

It could be a fantastic resource and some may say it still is (just!) if it wasn't for all the fucking winging (and White-interest-lackingtons endless stream of shite... Bubba - will you just go ahead and put him on a 'approved  posts only' status and we can only approve caving related posts.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: NigR on December 10, 2009, 11:12:27 pm
If you don't like it stick to whinging in the Welsh section

No, don't say that! Be nice to him, then he'll stay here.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on December 11, 2009, 12:01:14 am
 :clap2: :clap2: :-\
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Kevlar on December 11, 2009, 12:55:07 am
So, yeah, books. Great aren't they.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: bubba on December 11, 2009, 03:02:30 am

Unchecked behaviour has caused a number of people to consider that UKCaving should be closed down for being so negative and giving cavers and caving a bad name as a result.
That is one of the most ridiculous things that's ever been posted here. Just who is going to close it down? People can consider it all they like, it's not happening until I want it to happen.

As for people being negative - yes, there is a lot of negative vibes on here. That's a result of the way the community has developed. For example ukbouldering.com is generally a fun, happy place with all round good vibes - the same moderation policies, etc have been applied there as they have here. Perhaps it's just how cavers are?

As for giving caving a bad name...well, if cavers give caving a bad name then what can you do? Why not go start www.nicecaversonly.co.uk (http://www.nicecaversonly.co.uk) or something?

OK, then the work I was going to do (for free) to try and track down a copy of the Gautries film and obtain permission for it to be used by the diggers currently pushing the new breakthrough in the cave is on HOLD.
What a bizzarre little dummy-spit - have those diggers offended you or something? I can see no connection between that and Sam misquoting you.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: mulucaver on December 11, 2009, 03:22:30 am
Now then children, just count to ten
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: jasonbirder on December 11, 2009, 09:09:28 am
Quote
a number of people to consider that UKCaving should be closed down

What the f*ck... :furious:
By who...and on behalf of who...

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on December 11, 2009, 09:40:08 am
Quote
a number of people to consider that UKCaving should be closed down

What the f*ck... :furious:
By who...and on behalf of who...
Pompous prats who haven't worked out how to register, probably.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Bushman on December 11, 2009, 10:16:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I don't think anyone at all is suggesting that the book not be published, and I don't think making a pdf version available on line would impact sales very much at all.
People want the book.
Printing off the pdf to laminate and take with you would be easier than scanning/photocopying.
Having the book to read on the bog/plan trips with, then double checking the online version for updates would surely be a good way to go.

(just to get back on topic....)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on December 11, 2009, 10:24:37 am
Or buy two copies, one to keep and one to cut up and laminate.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: andychapm on December 11, 2009, 10:47:29 am
Quote
OK, then the work I was going to do (for free) to try and track down a copy of the Gautries film and obtain permission for it to be used by the diggers currently pushing the new breakthrough in the cave is on HOLD.
I'm one of the people currently digging down Gautries and i resent being dragged into this. I choose to use UKcaving as a resource for caving and digging information and not as a social forum but when I saw the group I dig with getting dragged in, I had to react.
I'm grateful to Clive for trying to track down this video, it was the first I've heard of it but I'd like to see it now. However, I can't see that somebody else using the caps lock or whatever should really effect on what a group of people choose to do on their spare time, spending their own money.
Leave us out of this one. I'm really grateful for John and Iain for writing this book but it's not my fault it can't be published yet.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Bushman on December 11, 2009, 11:34:14 am
Or buy two copies, one to keep and one to cut up and laminate.
Another option. :beer2:

I think the main reason to publish online though would be the ease with which the guide could be kept up to date.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: ttxela on July 07, 2010, 01:06:39 pm
Is it correct that the manuscript has now gone off for printing?  :clap2:

When can we place our order  :bounce:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on July 07, 2010, 01:44:01 pm
You will be happy to hear that DCA has at last been able to find a publisher for the new Caves of the Peak District.  DCA itself will be funding the publication. 

The final version of the text, prepared by John Beck, is being updated with the recent discoveries in the Peak District and we hope to be able to send it for printing within the next couple of months.  Thanks are due to John Beck and Iain Barker for all their efforts in finding a publisher for the new edition.

Likely publication date, if all goes well, will be later this autumn. 

As soon as we have some definite dates, DCA will be circulating a pre-publication order offer so you can get your muddy paws on it a.s.a.p.

Jenny Potts
Hon. Sec. DCA
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: martinb on July 07, 2010, 05:32:01 pm
Yay!  :clap2:  :clap2:  :clap2:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jam on July 07, 2010, 06:07:43 pm
1 for me please.  :)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on July 07, 2010, 06:56:16 pm
Well done all - your efforts are very much appreciated.

A copy for me as well please.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on July 07, 2010, 07:27:31 pm
Nice one Mr Beck, I don't know how you would have managed without all the input from Ian and Bob  :-\
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: blakey on July 07, 2010, 08:15:22 pm
Winner, one for me please!!!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on July 08, 2010, 12:06:04 pm
There's no point posting "one for me" messages on here...

As soon as we have some definite dates, DCA will be circulating a pre-publication order offer so you can get your muddy paws on it a.s.a.p.


 :read:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on July 08, 2010, 12:16:10 pm
Just to clarify, when we're ready to go with the new CoPD and have a more definite date, we will put a downloadable order form on the DCA website and notify via UKcaving that we've done so.  Then it will be up to you to get your order in before the deadline.

Jenny Potts
Hon. Sec. DCA
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on July 08, 2010, 12:22:13 pm
Jenny

Deadline? Is there a very limited print run then?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on July 08, 2010, 12:39:17 pm
We'll be doing a special pre-publication rate for the book so there will be a deadline to get orders in for this.   That means your copy will be posted to you just as soon as we get it from the printers.  To be fair to you, we can't make this special order form available until we have a more definite timescale - we're working on that.

Once the book is published, you will still be able to order a copy direct from DCA but it will cost you a bit more than via the special pre-publication rate, or you'll be able to buy from a caving shop. 

If we sell out on the first print run, we would aim do a re-print but that may take time.

Jenny Potts
Hon. Sec. DCA
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on July 08, 2010, 12:43:44 pm
Thanks
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: cavermark on July 08, 2010, 09:57:51 pm

OK, then the work I was going to do (for free) to try and track down a copy of the Gautries film and obtain permission for it to be used by the diggers currently pushing the new breakthrough in the cave is on HOLD.

I've objected to having my words misquoted - quite reasonably.


In parenting this is termed "withdrawal of love" - when a child behaves in a way you don't want them to, you remove a toy or treat. A more positive approach is to try to empathise and understand why they have behaved in a certain way (and think about what you could have done to avoid it). This builds mutual respect and understanding and reduces future conflict.

Excellent work on getting the Caves of the Peak District sorted by all concerned. I look forward to having it grace my coffee table and being able to read it in bed, leave it on the car seat, read it in workplaces (and other places where a book is far better than a laptop or various laminates). :clap2:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: RobinGriffiths on July 08, 2010, 11:27:42 pm
Quote
In parenting this is termed "withdrawal of love" - when a child behaves in a way you don't want them to, you remove a toy or treat. A more positive approach is to try to empathise and understand why they have behaved in a certain way (and think about what you could have done to avoid it). This builds mutual respect and understanding and reduces future conflict.

The gentleman in question is long gone. The above is his last post (and last activity here unless he's on silent running) and that's 6 months ago.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: cavermark on July 09, 2010, 06:00:19 pm
ah so i see, now I've looked at the dates  :-[
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on August 08, 2010, 03:28:21 pm
Pre publication order forms (£20 post free) for CoPD are now ready and will be posted out shortly to Clubs and DCA members and it will also be available at Hidden Earth.  The deadline for this post-free offer is 4th. October.   

We should also have the order form as a download on the DCA website at www.thedca.org.uk (http://www.thedca.org.uk) as soon as our webmaster has time to put it up.

Otherwise, if you want a copy of the form now, email me at the DCA secretary email address on the website and I'll email you a form.

The book will be off to the printers very shortly and will be with us this autumn - thanks for your patience.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.


Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on August 08, 2010, 06:26:14 pm
Jenny you have served us all well, yet again.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on August 08, 2010, 07:13:11 pm
yay  :clap2: :bounce:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on August 10, 2010, 04:12:22 pm
OK folks, thanks to DCA's webmaster, the pre-publication order form for CoPD is now on the DCA website and can be downloaded from there - www.thedca.org.uk (http://www.thedca.org.uk). 

Note that the deadline for the special order rate is 4th. October - after that you'll have to pay postage on your order or buy it from a shop.

Jenny Potts
DCA Hon. Sec.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on August 10, 2010, 06:09:30 pm
Jenny, that link takes you to the DCA Home Page. I cannot see where the form is from there.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on August 10, 2010, 06:19:37 pm
Jenny, that link takes you to the DCA Home Page. I cannot see where the form is from there.

The Home page says "Welcome to the DCA website"

Under this it says "Pre-order your copy of CoPD"  -  just click on that and you'll get the form.

Jenny P.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on August 10, 2010, 08:26:33 pm
Jenny, that link takes you to the DCA Home Page. I cannot see where the form is from there.

The Home page says "Welcome to the DCA website"

Under this it says "Pre-order your copy of CoPD"  -  just click on that and you'll get the form.

Jenny P.

Thanks, didn't have that, before, must have had an old copy in cache.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: mmilner on August 10, 2010, 11:10:34 pm
Unfortunately there's no indication that either of those sub-headings are links Jenny. They just look like smaller headings that don't do anything. The links should really be a different colour and/or underlined. Mel.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on August 11, 2010, 01:10:44 pm
OK, thanks for pointing this out.  I'll raise it with the DCA webmaster. 

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on October 19, 2010, 05:13:58 pm
Update on the publication of the new Caves of the Peak District.

Now estimated to be end of November - hence we're extending the pre-publication offer to NOVEMBER 4 (instead of October 4th.).  If you have an order form, just send it in and don't worry about the date on it.  You can also download an order form from the DCA website:  www.thedca.org.uk (http://www.thedca.org.uk).

Sorry it's a bit later than we'd hoped but it's taken a fair bit of checking to ensure everything is correct and all recent updates are in.  I've seen a preview of the first 100 or so pages ready for printing and it looks really good.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pipster on November 26, 2010, 10:44:06 am
Are we nearly there yet?  ;)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on November 26, 2010, 02:02:00 pm
Very nearly!

Final draft of printed copy was delivered on Wednesday this week - looks good!  We've OK'd to go to print - so it's now in the hands of the printer when it will finally be delivered to DCA.  Suggested period was 2 weeks to print the lot and then it will be delivered to us - i.e. my house!

As soon as we have it the first task will be posting out over 200 copies already pre-ordered; then we'll get copies to shops for general sale.  We'll do our best to get this done a.s.a.p. but depends on volunteers to envelope stuff, etc.

Thanks for your patience.

Jenny
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on November 26, 2010, 02:27:57 pm
Do you need volunteers?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pipster on November 26, 2010, 04:14:48 pm
Very nearly!

Excellent :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on November 29, 2010, 11:16:48 am
Do you need volunteers?

I think we have some lined up thank you.  If we do turn out to be short of bods we'll put out a call for more help.

Thanks for the offer.

Jenny
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on November 30, 2010, 06:39:58 pm
Sorry folks, but if you ordered a copy of the new “Caves of the Peak District”, although the final version went to the printers last week, the scheduled delivery date to us is now 17th. Dec. 

This means that there is no time to pack and post out your orders in time for Christmas and we don't want to get tangled in the Christmas post anyway.  We have everything already organised and will be doing a monster packing/posting session to get all the copies out to you during the week immediately following Christmas.  We hope to get them to you by New Year, post permitting.

Sorry for the delay - very disappointing after all our hard work - but hope you'll think it's worth it when you have the book in your hands.

Jenny Potts
DCA Hon. Secretary


Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Muddydisco on November 30, 2010, 08:19:17 pm
Jenny when will the book be going on sale to others?  I have just got back into caving and found this thread, would love to have a copy but can't find any links on the DCA website.

Many Thanks
Nick
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: mmilner on November 30, 2010, 08:36:44 pm
I'd be happy to pick mine up in person that Sunday if you are in? And any that other DPC members may have pre-ordered...

Regards,
Mel.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: martinb on November 30, 2010, 08:56:28 pm
Can do same for Chesterfield Caving mob, if its from Hucklow or similar.  :thumbsup:

I'd be happy to pick mine up in person that Sunday if you are in? And any that other DPC members may have pre-ordered...

Regards,
Mel.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: traff on December 01, 2010, 07:11:59 am

Suggested period was 2 weeks to print the lot and then it will be delivered to us - i.e. my house!


Can you not organize a partial shipment before the run is completed?

By not dispatching in time for Christmas you going to p**s a lot of people off!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on December 01, 2010, 02:13:03 pm
The books will be in the shops immediately after we have posted out the pre-publication orders - so early in the New Year.  We will be working as fast as we can but have well over 200 to deal with by post as the first priority and they will go out immediately after Christmas.

As we don't have club details on the orders it will be difficult to arrange for a pickup (as suggested by Darfar P.C. and others) unless you can give me a list of names of those in your club who have placed orders.  (We have a set of address labels with just names & addresses printed out for the posting.)

Jenny Potts
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: nickwilliams on December 17, 2010, 11:03:12 pm
I'm pleased to be able to report that I have my copy hand delivered (with appropriate genuflections, of course) by the Chairman of DCA this evening, and it looks absolutely splendid. Well done to all involved!

Nick.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: teabag on December 17, 2010, 11:14:43 pm
Why is there no smiley for 'jealous' for all those of us waiting for it to be posted
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: AndyF on December 18, 2010, 12:25:35 am
Well done to all involved....  :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: traff on December 18, 2010, 09:22:05 am
So ample time to get them dispatched for Christmas...........
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on December 18, 2010, 11:59:22 am
Got mine already its not what you know its who you know
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on December 18, 2010, 05:20:07 pm
So ample time to get them dispatched for Christmas...........

If there were just a few to post, maybe.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on December 18, 2010, 05:31:02 pm

When will places like Hitch and Hike get their stock in ??

(didn't get my arse in gear to pre-order one  :chair: )
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: MarkC on December 20, 2010, 08:24:03 pm

When will places like Hitch and Hike get their stock in ??


January according to their website:

http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/uk_and_ireland_caving_guidebooks.html (http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/uk_and_ireland_caving_guidebooks.html)

Mark
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on December 29, 2010, 09:11:27 am
Just to let everyone know that all pre-publication orders for CoPD will be posted out today.  Apologies for the delay but we're sure you will find it's worth the wait.

As soon as these have been posted out we will be distributing supplies to Peak District shops so they will be available in the New Year - £20 over the counter.

You will still be able to order copies direct from DCA but it will cost you £21.60, including postage.  We'll put an order form on the DCA website tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: martinb on December 29, 2010, 09:20:21 am
Marvellous.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: moorebooks on December 29, 2010, 09:28:40 am
Just to let everyone know that all pre-publication orders for CoPD will be posted out today.  Apologies for the delay but we're sure you will find it's worth the wait.

As soon as these have been posted out we will be distributing supplies to Peak District shops so they will be available in the New Year - £20 over the counter.

You will still be able to order copies direct from DCA but it will cost you £21.60, including postage.  We'll put an order form on the DCA website tomorrow.

Thanks for your patience.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Secretary.



Hey Jenny,

I assume  other well known book suppliers will also have a stock very soon??


Mike
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 02, 2011, 12:10:39 pm
All copies were packaged and put into the post on Thursday, 30 Dec. - we didn't receive them from the printer until immediately before Christmas so left posting until afterwards to avoid Christmas chaos. 

However, in addition to the Christmas shutdown, we then found all Royal Mail sorting offices were shut down from midday Friday until 4th. January so nothing will go out from them until next Tuesday.  Incredibly frustrating!

So sorry - we worked our socks off to get all 200+ orders packaged and stamped on Thursday, only to be foiled again.

It will be worth it when you receive it - honest!

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: ttxela on January 02, 2011, 12:39:59 pm
No worries, many thanks for organising it all.  :hug:

I suspect most of the caves will still be there on the 4th  ;D
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 02, 2011, 12:54:54 pm
I'm as excited as a kid waiting for Christmas.... oh, hang on!!  ;D
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 02, 2011, 01:08:41 pm

Got mine from HnH yesterday and jolly nice it is too - well done to John Beck et al :clap2:  :bow:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 02, 2011, 01:14:40 pm

Got mine from HnH yesterday and jolly nice it is too - well done to John Beck et al :clap2:  :bow:

Really?! That's a nice bit of irony...  :lol:

I'm sure it'll be worth the wait.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pete K on January 02, 2011, 04:28:46 pm
Got my copy today at HnH, will be ignoring my girlfriend for the next few hours while I read it. Very nice guide, quite modern in comparrison to the previous one. Nice job!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 02, 2011, 04:59:02 pm
 :furious: :furious:

I think it was August I Paid for mine. could have called in HnH on my way past today and bought one. :furious:

To think It's the people who paid upfront where probably the ones who made the publishing possible? Under the idea of getting a copy before the shops ?

Sorry DCA but that's a  :thumbsdown: from me
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 02, 2011, 05:18:50 pm
Whilst I too feel a bit put out (though I probably only just snuck in on the deadline), I think the delay at the publishers (is that what happened?) was out of DCA control and it's such a niche piece of work if my advance payment under-pinned it then so be it.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 02, 2011, 05:39:54 pm
I paid for mine months ago as a way of supporting the project, which I was pleased to have the opportunity to do.

I have complete faith in Jenny and the team; I know they've done their level best.
I'm just grateful that we have people here who are willing to do so much voluntarily for us. If you think their efforts could be improved on playoutside - you can always volunteer next time  ;)

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 02, 2011, 05:51:44 pm
If you think their efforts could be improved on playoutside - you can always volunteer next time  ;)

I thought this might crop up and to be fair to playoutside and why I'm a little (but only a little) peeved,  probably isn't a valid argument in this case, for reasons I won't divulge on the forum.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 02, 2011, 07:14:57 pm
On the grounds of "if you think you can do better, put your money where you mouth is"...

After discussions in my local Peak based caving shop I am volunteering to coordinated the creation of an addon index.

I'll start typing when my copy arrives through the post, but if anyone wants to help, feel free to contact me.

I'll be producing an index in at least two formats

Cave name , Page number
and
Cave name, Catchment area, Page number

I may also include updated and corrected grid references

Pages will be formatted to fit inside the back cover and produced as PDFs
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 02, 2011, 11:04:49 pm
If you think their efforts could be improved on playoutside - you can always volunteer next time  ;)

I am not wanting to pull down The  DCA (sorry for my little strop :spank:) I am very greatfull for everything they do for us and I'm also very greatfull for all the hard work time and effort gone in to this new book...  :bow:

It just feels like a broken promice :weep:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Lampwick on January 03, 2011, 12:08:17 am
Twice before I've logged in to reply on this post, but decided to bite my tongue.  I'll be driving through Bamford on Tuesday.
Disappointed. Nuff said.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on January 03, 2011, 12:34:37 am
Some of us have been waiting nearly 20 years for this book, longer than most of you winging knobs have been caving.
Get a grip, it isn't life changing, there aren't any mega systems in it you don't know about.
Its an just an update on the old book, with some nice pictures and surveys
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 03, 2011, 09:06:32 am

                       ^
                       ^
 What he said ^
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 03, 2011, 11:44:22 am
Some of us have been waiting nearly 20 years for this book, longer than most of you winging knobs have been caving.
Get a grip, it isn't life changing, there aren't any mega systems in it you don't know about.
Its an just an update on the old book, with some nice pictures and surveys

With respect I don't think any one was whinging (playoutside has retracted and Lampwick has declined) and you're right, it's not life or death. My old 1984 copy is still just about serviceable. 

What might mildly annoy/disappoint/make some feel indifferent/make them act like knobs, is in hindsight it might have been more politic to have held back the shop copies. Although I'm sure no preference was stated on the order form (haven't got one to hand) there is I suppose an inference to be made.

However, as you said previously, you had to wait slightly less time - "who you know etc." but that's another fight.

So what I'll do is wait patiently and thankfully for it to fall through the letter box.

Cheers

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: droid on January 03, 2011, 01:24:15 pm
Some of us have been waiting nearly 20 years for this book, longer than most of you winging knobs have been caving.
Get a grip, it isn't life changing, there aren't any mega systems in it you don't know about.
Its an just an update on the old book, with some nice pictures and surveys

Good.

I'll save £20 then.

I agree with the sentiment though.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 03, 2011, 02:48:42 pm
Some of us have been waiting nearly 20 years for this book, longer than most of you winging knobs have been caving.
Get a grip, it isn't life changing, there aren't any mega systems in it you don't know about.
Its an just an update on the old book, with some nice pictures and surveys

Got mine already its not what you know its who you know
    on: December 18, 2010, 11:59:22 am »


Winging Knobs Vs Acting like Knobs.

Can I just say before gun's start blazing  I still have a lot of respect For Mark  and all he dose for  caving and this forum.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on January 03, 2011, 03:09:45 pm
Some of us have been waiting nearly 20 years for this book, longer than most of you winging knobs have been caving.
Get a grip, it isn't life changing, there aren't any mega systems in it you don't know about.
Its an just an update on the old book, with some nice pictures and surveys

Got mine already its not what you know its who you know
    on: December 18, 2010, 11:59:22 am »


Winging Knobs Vs Acting like Knobs.

Can I just say before gun's start blazing  I still have a lot of respect For Mark  and all he dose for  caving and this forum.


If you read a little further back in this topic

Great Hucklow Community Publishing? have just produced a cracking book called Lead in the Veins about mining in the Hucklow area.

I don't know how they got it published but I suspect it wouldn't have been a huge print run.

Maybe Nick Williams can put you in contact with someone?

You will see that it was this knob that actually came up with the idea of using Hucklow Publishing, eventually had a word with the guy who runs it, (I drink in the same pub as him) Got him talking to John which led to eventually getting the bloody thing published

So without this "who you know" you might still be waiting

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Foxy on January 03, 2011, 04:50:24 pm
I would like to thank all who have had an input into this guide book,

I am asked many times by folk to borrow my books and after many never find there way back i can now direct people to this guide.

I was in Hitch and Hike on saturday when Jenny left the copies for the shop and i too have paid pre print but hey so what, everyone concerned has worked very hard.  So come on thanks should be due to all.

 :clap2:
 
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 03, 2011, 06:28:52 pm
(http://imagineressources.linternaute.com/document/image/540/villes-storm-toronto-ontario-canada-188744.jpg)

(http://www.tiffinvintageteas.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/teacup.jpg)

I'm sure 99.9999 % of anyone vaguely bothered is thankful to John Jenny and the rest. Pre paid for copies were packaged and posted out prior to shop deliveries. Royal mail are crap as usual.

Nobody died.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: zippy on January 04, 2011, 02:20:00 pm
Got me hands on a copy now. 

I would like to say a heartfelt "well done" to all involved  :clap2:

Z.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 04, 2011, 03:22:17 pm
On the grounds of "if you think you can do better, put your money where you mouth is"...

After discussions in my local Peak based caving shop I am volunteering to coordinated the creation of an addon index.

I'll start typing when my copy arrives through the post, but if anyone wants to help, feel free to contact me.

I'll be producing an index in at least two formats

Cave name , Page number
and
Cave name, Catchment area, Page number

I may also include updated and corrected grid references

Pages will be formatted to fit inside the back cover and produced as PDFs

This is a brilliant idea!  Many thanks.

If it can also include a Grid Reference Index  (like the one done for the 1970's Edn. of CoPD) that would be the icing on the cake.

It could be made available either as a booklet "Companion to the Caves of the Peak District - the Index" or as a downloadable spreadsheet-type file to allow for easy searching.

If this can be done, I am quite sure DCA would be willing to fund it and would support its distribution.  It's not possible to include this type of thing in a commercial book on sale to the general public but it would be really helpful for cavers.  It would also be easily updateable as a start for the next edition of CoPD - there will have to be one some time if you keep on finding more caves!

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 04, 2011, 05:01:28 pm
On the grounds of "if you think you can do better, put your money where you mouth is"...

After discussions in my local Peak based caving shop I am volunteering to coordinated the creation of an addon index.

I'll start typing when my copy arrives through the post, but if anyone wants to help, feel free to contact me.

I'll be producing an index in at least two formats

Cave name , Page number
and
Cave name, Catchment area, Page number

I may also include updated and corrected grid references

Pages will be formatted to fit inside the back cover and produced as PDFs

Got time on my hand. Could you PM me what you'd need me to do.

Cheers
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 04, 2011, 09:13:54 pm

It could be made available either as a booklet "Companion to the Caves of the Peak District - the Index" or as a downloadable spreadsheet-type file to allow for easy searching.

If this can be done, I am quite sure DCA would be willing to fund it and would support its distribution.  It's not possible to include this type of thing in a commercial book on sale to the general public but it would be really helpful for cavers.  It would also be easily updateable as a start for the next edition of CoPD - there will have to be one some time if you keep on finding more caves!

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

Why not somewhere like here...http://ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php/Peak_District (http://ukcaving.com/wiki/index.php/Peak_District)

It doesn't take a huge leap of imagination to envisage a wiki page like the one already set up holding all the information relevant. Access notes, locations, grid refs, references, surveys, rigging topos etc etc.

Dont get me wrong - its awesome to have CotPD on my cistern at the moment - but all this talk of "Index Companions" bugs the life of me. We already have Access guides, rigging topos etc to obtain. And they are usually out of date the day after they have been written (effort)  printed (at cost) distributed (more effort) bought (cost).

Peak info is duplicated and scattered all over the web at the moment...

Here http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/peak_district_cave_information.htm (http://www.peakdistrictcaving.info/peak_district_cave_information.htm)
Here http://caving.hucklow.org/castleton_survey/ (http://caving.hucklow.org/castleton_survey/)
Here http://www.thedca.org.uk/Access.htm (http://www.thedca.org.uk/Access.htm)
Here http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/ (http://www.peakcavemonitoring.org.uk/)
Here http://www.peakspeedwell.info (http://www.peakspeedwell.info)

Surveys are available on nearly all of these sites etc...

Is it not about time everything was pulled together in one place. At least with the wiki - stuff can be updated and peer reviewed by all - meaning the onus is taken off the usual one or two individuals.



Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 04, 2011, 10:35:34 pm
i know, but i want an index in my book so i can look up where Strawberry hole is...
i too don't want to get into "my caving website with maps is better than your caving website with maps"
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 04, 2011, 10:43:21 pm
i know, but i want an index in my book so i can look up where Strawberry hole is...

fairy snuff but really  :shrug: like really really.

Is the whole thing not in alphabetical order... it just took me approximately 4.2 seconds* to find strawberry hole in the guide. Flicked through to Stoney area,,, flicked though.. Fati....Iv.....Wat...back a bit...Oh there it is.

Right I'm off to write an excel spreadsheet that tells me where all the utensils are in my cutlery draw, which I can cross reference with the one I have telling me which hooks my mugs are hung on.

* I made that figure up. 
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Les W on January 04, 2011, 10:59:23 pm

Is the whole thing not in alphabetical order...

I don't know (yet).
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 04, 2011, 11:17:01 pm
each catchment area is in alphabetical order. there may well be many caves that i don't know which catchment its in ...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 05, 2011, 08:24:56 am
Royal Mail hasn't got mine to me yet but doesn't the book have an overall cave index at the back?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on January 05, 2011, 03:46:23 pm
each catchment area is in alphabetical order. there may well be many caves that i don't know which catchment its in ...

The old COPD had an index, but I don't think it tells you which catchment the cave is in.

The guide book is basically a glorified index, split into catchment areas, with a lot of added detail, rather than just a list of cave names (which tells you nothing)

Its a great aid when visiting an area and being able to see what else is around or when caving somewhere finding something else and looking it up.

I don't really see the need for a separate index but if someone wants to take it on fair play.

Its not a very long book and after a couple of weeks of reading it while having a shit you will know it word for word anyway.

Thanks to John, Iain, Jenny and everyone else involved  :clap2:

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Big Jim on January 05, 2011, 04:12:04 pm
each catchment area is in alphabetical order. there may well be many caves that i don't know which catchment its in ...


Its not a very long book and after a couple of weeks of reading it while having a shit you will know it word for word anyway.


Mine is tucked down the side of the bog already alongside the last CoPD and an older CoDerbyshire.  And a copy of razzle featuring John Beck  ;D

Jx
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: underground on January 05, 2011, 04:28:04 pm


And a copy of razzle featuring John Beck  ;D

Jx

Which issue? Catering size tin of spaghetti hoops, custard or poster paint?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 06, 2011, 09:27:19 pm
Has any one got one through the post yet??? :shrug:

All i can think about on my way home from work (will it be on the door step?) :bounce:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 06, 2011, 09:39:07 pm
Not yet.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: teabag on January 06, 2011, 11:44:44 pm
Me neither
 :weep:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on January 07, 2011, 07:19:50 am
The carrier pigeons have reached Mendip.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Les W on January 07, 2011, 08:54:15 am
The carrier pigeons have reached Mendip.

I think you mean the carrier pigeons have reached Bristol. Not seen any on Mendip yet.  :smartass:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 07, 2011, 09:15:43 am

I;ve just received a credit card bill that looks like it was posted sometime in mid December.  :o

I guess royal mail will be idly sweeping up the sorting room floors and now and getting round sorting out those bags wot got dumped over there in the corner in the rush.

After a brew like  :coffee:




Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 07, 2011, 09:18:09 am

[/facetiousness]
 :-[

actually I think the Royal mail is rather an amazing service on the whole.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Glenn on January 07, 2011, 10:13:06 am
The carrier pigeons have reached Mendip.

And here in snowy Sandbach.

Well done everybody :beer2:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Big Jim on January 07, 2011, 12:03:58 pm

[/facetiousness]
 :-[

actually I think the Royal mail is rather an amazing service on the whole.

Having spent 8 years working for them Sam, I have to disagree. Very poorly managed and overstaffed. Governed by the CWU. I have no faith in them and hope they go tits up and lose all their trade to more competative courier firms. :lol:

J
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 07, 2011, 12:17:44 pm
I want to say Off Topic...   :read:



... but then I am also torn with wanting to say rather RM than ShittyLink/DHL who tickle the door before posting the 'ring expensive number - get put on hold - turn up at depot 20 miles away - wait 30 mins.' card.   :chair:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 07, 2011, 12:19:05 pm
Wow - they actually knock (tickle) your door - I've watched em write the card in the van and post it through the door from my office upstairs.  :spank:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Rhys on January 07, 2011, 12:39:10 pm
Still off topic, I know.

I find Royal Mail amazing. I can pay pence for a first class stamp, stick a letter in a postbox one evening and have it  arrive at the other end of the county the next morning. However, they can also be unbelievably crap at times too!

Rhys
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 07, 2011, 12:54:13 pm
its not just You Rhys, we're all waiting :-)
I had a computer cable arrive yesterday that said "posted on Dec 30" on it.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Duncan Price on January 07, 2011, 01:15:46 pm
My copy arrived at work today.  Thank-you.

Out of curiousity, I went to look up a favourite (underwater cave of mine).  Alas, no index.  Therefore I had to remember where the place was and look through that section alphabetically until I found it.

Apart from this gripe (already discussed), it really is a jolly fine guidebook.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: mmilner on January 07, 2011, 01:19:06 pm
Got mine today. Brilliant effort! Didn't think it'd be so glossy, colourful, etc.

My area already needs numerous updates, (which I will see to over the coming months), but at least it's a damn sight more up to date than it was in the last CoPD, lol.

Oh yeah, and it definitely needs a proper index as suggested...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 07, 2011, 01:48:00 pm
I went to look up a favourite (underwater cave of mine).  Alas, no index.  Therefore I had to remember where the place was

Blimey - your memory must be completely shot if you cant remember where your favourite cave is  :shrug:.
I'd see a doctor if I were you.

Quote
and look through that section alphabetically until I found it.

Time is money - you could sue DCA for loss of earnings in the time it took you to find it..

 :lol: ;)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Anon on January 07, 2011, 02:46:30 pm
Mine arrived this morning  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Duncan Price on January 07, 2011, 04:15:51 pm
I'd see a doctor if I were you.

I do - every time I look in the mirror. 8)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: psychocrawler on January 07, 2011, 05:39:47 pm
Arrived in the Republic of South Yorkshire today. Good effort but slightly surprised not to see any photos credited to the Good Captain, although many are uncredited. Also it needs an index for those who don't know their Derbyshite caves inside out (I know where the good ones are - and there are not too many of them to remember, ho ho). Seriously though, nice to see all the colour pics and (mainly) proper surveys and not black splodges resembling ink blot tests. Like the old quote at the start too. If only all Derbyshire caves were "void of excrement"!

AT
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 07, 2011, 07:20:39 pm
Still not on my door step :( and we had an inch of snow today, could that lead to even more delays? :weep: :wall:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 07, 2011, 07:31:57 pm
It does look as if all the copies blocked back at the sorting office are beginning to get through - so sorry for the delay, we did our best but were stymied by the Friday to Tuesday shutdown of Royal Mail.

If anyone still hasn't received their copy by this coming weekend, please PM me with real name and address so I can at least check that the copy was put in the post.  All addresses were typed into a spreadsheet as the orders arrived and this was used to print the labels so I can check back if need be.

Agree, it does need an index for the whole book - not sure why there isn't one as I thought there would be.  My guess is that producing this would have delayed the book's production still further or that it would have required an extra batch of pages and so increased the cost.  Note that the book has a sewn binding so you would have to add an additional complete set of pages (16 or 32?), you can't just add a few extra.  If and when we do the next Edn. we will make sure there is a full index.

All kudos and thanks should go to John Beck and Iain Barker, who did all the donkey work for years in getting it all ready for publication; also to Peter Miles of Great Hucklow Publishing, who went to tremendous trouble to get it right and did us proud in the end.

Enjoy!

Jenny Potts,
Hon. Sec. DCA
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 07, 2011, 07:55:34 pm
Mine arrived today.

Index or no index it's a brilliant job. Thank you to all concerned for such a splendid effort.


Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Mark on January 07, 2011, 08:47:53 pm
Just been looking through old Caves of Derbyshire

1964 no index
1967 no index
1974 no index
1979 no index
1984 no index
1991 indexed (caves of the Peak District
2010 no index

We managed without an index before, what's the problem
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 07, 2011, 09:00:47 pm
Ah, but the difference is that all editions up to 1984 simply listed all caves in alpha order right through the book, irrespective of where they were, so it was easy to find any named cave.

The 1991 edition was the first to split the caves into sections of catchment areas and put them in alpha order within each section.  That's why it had a full index at the back.

A full index to the 2010 edition would be really useful - but even more useful would be a grid reference index which would allow you to identify whether the scratty little hole you've just found has ever been found before or whether it's completely new.  A past DCA Newsletter editor did do a Grid Ref. Index for, I think, the 1974 edition and some duplicated copies were passed around - but this was all before the days of computers and he did it by steam.  It should now be possible to do the job in one go and produce something which has both full alpha index and grid ref. index - we could even supply it by email as a searchable database!

Just needs someone to do the work and we'll get it out there.

Jenny P.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: nickwilliams on January 07, 2011, 09:28:13 pm
Jenny,

Without wishing to get drawn into the debate as to whether or not an index is required, can I just point out that CoPD is supposed to be a caver's guide book. Identifying the location (and comprehensively recording the previous investigation, or otherwise) of any particular site (particularly minor ones), is the function of a cave registry, which is a different animal.

Nick.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: me on January 07, 2011, 09:45:00 pm
How far back do I have to go in this thread to find out were I can get a copy from?

Yes I know I am a bit behind  :down:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: barrabus on January 07, 2011, 09:50:14 pm
How far back do I have to go in this thread to find out were I can get a copy from?

Yes I know I am a bit behind  :down:

I think it depends on who you know or whether your postman likes you.

Or you could go to Hitch n Hike.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: John B on January 07, 2011, 09:55:52 pm
Do you want the truth about the index? No-one thought of it (or at least suggested it)!!

In hindsight I agree it would have been better. One could be produced from the database.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 07, 2011, 10:07:35 pm
How far back do I have to go in this thread to find out were I can get a copy from?

Yes I know I am a bit behind  :down:

Yes as above.
HnH or Caving suplies. or you could fill out the form and pay about 5 months ago for the pre publication copy and still be waiting! (not that I'm Bitter)

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 07, 2011, 10:21:49 pm
As stated before I'm willing to create an index / addendum.

I've started typing and will carry on unless its a quick process to produce from the registry

<cavename>  <catchment>   (then manually add page name)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on January 07, 2011, 11:02:49 pm
Have you done it yet? :)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Cave_Troll on January 07, 2011, 11:32:08 pm
Gimme a chance, its only just arrived !
up to Page 78 out 300
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: zomjon on January 08, 2011, 12:51:40 am
This is a great book and I thoroughly enjoyed leafing through it on it's arrival today, thankyou very much to the various people who have put in so much work. In reference to any future project, I was a little surprised at the inclusion of say Groaning Tor and inassessible holes such as Ranter, Orchard and Bondog in the Via Gellia area whilst interesting places such as Dunsley Spring, Henstocks, Gells Level, Silver Eye and Snake get no mention. Just a thought for the future.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 08, 2011, 10:35:04 am
Jenny,

Without wishing to get drawn into the debate as to whether or not an index is required, can I just point out that CoPD is supposed to be a caver's guide book. Identifying the location (and comprehensively recording the previous investigation, or otherwise) of any particular site (particularly minor ones), is the function of a cave registry, which is a different animal.

Nick.

Nick has a very good point here (as usual) and hence my earlier suggestion of a wiki page for such a thing so its not just sat on one persons computer, in a locked house, that could go up in smoke heaven forbid with the onus on them to update it all the time.

Could  be a page on the DCA website if people are unhappy with UKc as a host.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 08, 2011, 11:20:12 am

If anyone still hasn't received their copy by this coming weekend, please PM me with real name and address...

Jenny Potts,
Hon. Sec. DCA

You have a PM Jenny.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: martinb on January 08, 2011, 12:08:02 pm
Mine has arrived. Well Happy!  ;D
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 08, 2011, 01:28:03 pm
Is there anywhere I can do an online order for this? I've had a look at a couple of sites, DCA, H&N, Caving Supplies and Moorebooks but can't see it listed.

Cheers,

Robin
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Antwan on January 08, 2011, 04:01:49 pm
Its listed on hitch n hike, Look harder!

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: ttxela on January 08, 2011, 05:08:07 pm
My copy arrived yesterday  :thumbsup:

Already I've picked out a couple of places I fancy visiting that I wasn't previously aware of.

In terms of access some sites state access not permitted or permission not normally granted, others give names, phone numbers or other information. Where a site is just described and no access information is given can it be assumed access is allowed, or is that a question best not asked..... :-\
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on January 08, 2011, 05:51:35 pm
Gimme a chance, its only just arrived !
up to Page 78 out 300

I was joking you know!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 08, 2011, 08:37:08 pm
In terms of access some sites state access not permitted or permission not normally granted, others give names, phone numbers or other information. Where a site is just described and no access information is given can it be assumed access is allowed, or is that a question best not asked..... :-\

DCA is now getting on with producing the "Caves of the Peak District Access & Rigging Guide" which will give details for access to all the major sites: address and/or phone no. to call, email address where this is used, special conditions, insurance requirements, etc.  It will also have details of all the rigging where DCA has installed P-hangers since 1992.  This is the sort of stuff which can change almost monthly, unlike the cave details in CoPD itself.

Once the Guide is complete and printed, which will be a.s.a.p. now, it will be sent free of charge to all DCA members and will also be available cheaply from DCA.  We also aim to put it on the DCA website as a downloadable pdf. and will put up amendments as they come in.  The idea is to make it cheap and cheerful so that we can do an updated version fairly regularly.

Hope this will be what you want.

Jenny P.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on January 08, 2011, 08:43:26 pm
In terms of access some sites state access not permitted or permission not normally granted, others give names, phone numbers or other information. Where a site is just described and no access information is given can it be assumed access is allowed, or is that a question best not asked..... :-\

DCA is now getting on with producing the "Caves of the Peak District Access & Rigging Guide" which will give details for access to all the major sites: address and/or phone no. to call, email address where this is used, special conditions, insurance requirements, etc.  It will also have details of all the rigging where DCA has installed P-hangers since 1992.  This is the sort of stuff which can change almost monthly, unlike the cave details in CoPD itself.

Once the Guide is complete and printed, which will be a.s.a.p. now, it will be sent free of charge to all DCA members and will also be available cheaply from DCA.  We also aim to put it on the DCA website as a downloadable pdf. and will put up amendments as they come in.  The idea is to make it cheap and cheerful so that we can do an updated version fairly regularly.

Hope this will be what you want.

Jenny P.

Yes, indeed. It is perfectly possible that the next CoPD is over ten years away. Access information that is that far out of date is a positive irritation.

Whereas you want a book in your pocket when you are in the field looking for stuff, access info is far better on the web where it can be kept up to date.

And of course you can put the pdf on your e-reader when away from your computer. ;)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 08, 2011, 08:48:26 pm
Is there anywhere I can do an online order for this? I've had a look at a couple of sites, DCA, H&N, Caving Supplies and Moorebooks but can't see it listed.

Copies for sale have now been delivered to the following retailers:
HnH at Bamford,
Scarthin Books in Cromford,
Peak District Mining Museum in Matlock Bath,
The Bakewell Bookshop in Bakewell,
Moorebooks
and will be in Caving Supplies in Buxton when Phil gets back from his hols.

Most of these will deal with online orders. 

CoPD can also be ordered from the DCA Treasurer at a price of £21.60, (including postage) but that will have to be a cheque payment as DCA itself doesn't do online orders.  (We are looking into it tho'.)  The DCA Treasurer and Chairman also have copies for sale for cash, if you can catch up with either of them.

I'm still chasing up whether the last of the pre-publication orders have deen delivered by post - they would have left the post office by 4th. January.

Jenny P.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: carabeener on January 08, 2011, 10:35:02 pm
Non of the Yorkshire caving shops got any?  Bernies, Inglesport?

Is that down to the Yorkshire mantra of "If it's not in Yorkshire it's not worth doing"?  :-\
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 08, 2011, 10:44:33 pm

Yerr - nobody in Yorkshire is the faintest bit interested in the Peak/Speedwell system eh pitlamp?  ;)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: ttxela on January 08, 2011, 11:15:29 pm
In terms of access some sites state access not permitted or permission not normally granted, others give names, phone numbers or other information. Where a site is just described and no access information is given can it be assumed access is allowed, or is that a question best not asked..... :-\

DCA is now getting on with producing the "Caves of the Peak District Access & Rigging Guide" which will give details for access to all the major sites: address and/or phone no. to call, email address where this is used, special conditions, insurance requirements, etc.  It will also have details of all the rigging where DCA has installed P-hangers since 1992.  This is the sort of stuff which can change almost monthly, unlike the cave details in CoPD itself.

Once the Guide is complete and printed, which will be a.s.a.p. now, it will be sent free of charge to all DCA members and will also be available cheaply from DCA.  We also aim to put it on the DCA website as a downloadable pdf. and will put up amendments as they come in.  The idea is to make it cheap and cheerful so that we can do an updated version fairly regularly.

Hope this will be what you want.

Jenny P.

Sounds ideal  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Les W on January 08, 2011, 11:58:51 pm
Got mine today, looks good.  :thumbsup:
Well done to all involved.  :clap2:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on January 09, 2011, 12:59:14 am
Any of you Yorkie (pud's) want to see a few piccies of the 'sediments' (mud) n' stuff that was/ is restricted @ w. icicle extensions. p.m. with e-mail address . there are a few things worth a look! if you have an interest in sedimentation or mineralogy, or "whatevva".
Or come and look, then criticise in a more informed manner.
we do soooo much more than jus' mud.
whippets & flat caps optional. :coffee:
Owd Git. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Anon on January 09, 2011, 09:37:50 am
Non of the Yorkshire caving shops got any?  Bernies, Inglesport?

Is that down to the Yorkshire mantra of "If it's not in Yorkshire it's not worth doing"?  :-\
Aye, must admit I was a bit surprised when a book dropped through the lettetrbox, was just expecting it to be a leaflet!  :lol:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 09, 2011, 10:30:07 am
Quote
Its listed on hitch n hike, Look harder!

You're right! It was under 'What's New'

http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/uk_and_ireland_caving_guidebooks.html (http://www.hitchnhike.co.uk/acatalog/uk_and_ireland_caving_guidebooks.html)

Cheers,

Robin
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: John B on January 09, 2011, 11:29:05 am
Cave Troll - it sounds as though you will have finished your index before I get round to it. Good effort!

On the subject of the Registry being on one computer and therefore vulnerable, it is well backed up, including being backed up in another location when amendments are made. So it's quite secure. It is important that there is only one definitive version, for obvious reasons!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: graham on January 09, 2011, 01:23:22 pm
On the subject of the Registry being on one computer and therefore vulnerable, it is well backed up, including being backed up in another location when amendments are made. So it's quite secure. It is important that there is only one definitive version, for obvious reasons!

Any chance of an online version, as is the case for Mendip & South Wales?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 09, 2011, 01:54:43 pm

Hear hear ...

Its what I've been trying to say for a while. No reason why DCA shouldn't be able to put this online on their web page, along with access info, downloadable pdf's for rigging maybe.

Paper rigging guides could still be sold if DCA want to top up the coffers a little as I'd say there is a genuine demand for them.

However, as I've stated many a time, it is not appropriate to publish access info in paper form because as Jenny stated herself...
Quote
This is the sort of stuff which can change almost monthly
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Anon on January 09, 2011, 02:13:19 pm
Online, pdf information etc would be useful!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Stuart Anderson on January 09, 2011, 02:25:09 pm
Mine came today; yes, on a Sunday!

Well done RM.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 09, 2011, 05:40:45 pm

Yerr - nobody in Yorkshire is the faintest bit interested in the Peak/Speedwell system eh pitlamp?  ;)

Good point Sam - you beat me to it.

(Perhaps I'd better mention though that, although I live in Yorkshire, I'm actually a Lancastrian doing missionary work  :ang: .)

Back on topic; I'm certain that having copies of John & Iain's new guide in shops in the Dales would be of interest to a significant number of cavers up here.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: barrabus on January 09, 2011, 05:44:46 pm

Back on topic; I'm certain that having copies of John & Iain's new guide in shops in the Dales would be of interest to a significant number of cavers up here.


I intend to purchase it in one of the two caving emporiums in Ingleton.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: moorebooks on January 10, 2011, 09:33:04 am
Did you see this report on the BBC website:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8382626.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/click_online/8382626.stm)

and a link:
http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/browse/espresso.jsp (http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/jsp/editorial/browse/espresso.jsp)
"Aspiring authors can also take advantage of the new EBM technology, uploading their work in person from a CD or flash drive, to see their written creations professionally printed, bound and trimmed into perfectly packaged library-quality paperback books indistinguishable from traditional published works. "

The other problem with Lulu it effectively destroys the retail market as it is print on demand, therefore the book never sees the light of day at all the usual outlets.

On a positive note I now have my stock of Caves of the Peak district - its shame title isn't a bit more embracing by saying caves and Mines of the Peak district as many of the latter are included in the book, there are a number of mine explorers who positively shy away from anything to do with Caving and thus restricts the market. It proves whats in a title can be very important.

I do know of a couple of decent Welsh Publishers if Clive Gardner can get in touch with me

Mike
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 10, 2011, 12:30:44 pm
there are a number of mine explorers who positively shy away from anything to do with Caving

How sad and narrow minded .... I wonder which web places they hang out at...I'm completely in the Dark.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: carabeener on January 10, 2011, 01:02:18 pm

Back on topic; I'm certain that having copies of John & Iain's new guide in shops in the Dales would be of interest to a significant number of cavers up here.


I intend to purchase it in one of the two caving emporiums in Ingleton.

I'd like to aswell, though looks like they don't have any stock of the book at the moment! (hint hint!)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on January 10, 2011, 01:33:26 pm
there are a number of mine explorers who positively shy away from anything to do with Caving

How sad and narrow minded .... I wonder which web places they hang out at...I'm completely in the Dark.


Allow me to enlighten you. Here are two of the more popular ones. Both very friendly and focussed on what interests them - including mines in Derbyshire.

www.aditnow.co.uk (http://www.aditnow.co.uk)
www.mine-explorer.co.uk (http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk)

Mike sells books. He knows what he's saying! It saddens me to see a few sport cavers treating mines as dispensable adventure playgrounds. If a good guide book can educate people from both ends of the spectrum what is important about these places, both caves and mines, then so much the better.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: moorebooks on January 10, 2011, 01:59:55 pm
there are a number of mine explorers who positively shy away from anything to do with Caving

How sad and narrow minded .... I wonder which web places they hang out at...I'm completely in the Dark.

I'm referring to http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/ (http://www.mine-explorer.co.uk/) and http://www.aditnow.co.uk/ (http://www.aditnow.co.uk/)   and not those on the fringes. I  feel it is naive as there is clearly a crossover between the sports I have always supported Caving and Mining equally including during my stint as NAMHO chair. I felt there is room for a dedicated mining element at HE which never happens

Mike
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 10, 2011, 02:06:43 pm
I'm not sure if Peter missed my jibe or not.

I am well aware of those sites peter, jolly good they are too. I lurk there and I occasionally post there when I have something relevant to say/ask. However I don't spend all my time on those forums harping on about how caves are better than mines and how those forums are populated by a bunch of gung ho, homophobic Green laners. If that were the case - I'd expect them to get pissed off with me and ban me.

Sorry - that's an entirely separate (historical)  argument we are completely off topic now -

Caves of the Peak district is ACE (far more glossy and well presented than I exptected  :clap2:)

There is a veritable kibble full of literature published on the mines of the peak every year by the likes of Riewerts, Ford and PDHMS. If the type of person that 'positively shy's away' from anything with the word cave in it then long may it still be called Caves of the Peak District.


Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on January 10, 2011, 02:15:19 pm
I entirely understood your jibe although why a jibe was actually necessary I don't know.  :ras: I was using your jibe as a good excuse to promote the sites. And why not.  :)
 
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: moorebooks on January 10, 2011, 02:44:12 pm

There is a veritable kibble full of literature published on the mines of the peak every year by the likes of Riewerts, Ford and PDHMS. If the type of person that 'positively shy's away' from anything with the word cave in it then long may it still be called Caves of the Peak District.


The problem with the latest mining productions although well very done  they set out to educate rather provide practical information for Explorers ( Lead Mining in the Peak District is also long out print) and certainly don't provide the detail information about pitches and other underground obtstacles which CotPD does very well

Mike .
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: droid on January 10, 2011, 03:00:49 pm

, there are a number of mine explorers who positively shy away from anything to do with Caving

Rather amusingly they don't shy away from SRT gear, Mike. ::) :lol:

Any mine explorer with half a brain is going to know that CoPD is going to include a fair few mines. It has done for the last 3 editions, no reason for a change.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Blakethwaite on January 10, 2011, 03:21:54 pm
Rather amusingly they don't shy away from SRT gear, Mike. ::) :lol:


SRT is a means of going up and down holes. Are you suggesting they should carry step ladders?

To be fair, a lot of mine-explorers would be hesitant to touch caving style  A-to-Z type guidebooks. Finding the way to a specific area of a mine based on scraps of old plans, hunches and good luck seems to be the preferred option even if it takes a good number of trips. Walking straight there handbook in hand doesn't really have the same appeal.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 10, 2011, 05:49:01 pm
As Peter Burgess says - Mike most certainly does know what he's talking about.

The only problem with Mike's suggested alternative name is that COPD attempts to describe the caves exhaustively together with any mines of special interest to cavers. If it were to be called "Caves & Mines of the Peak District" it would then have to try to describe all the mines exhaustively as well - this would be a very different animal!

In an area such as the Peak District there will always be an overlap of interest between cavers and mine explorers but the overlap is probably not quite great enough to justify a radically altered approach to COPD. It'd also need a willing volunteer to co-ordinate such a volume (or, more correcly, probably a number of volumes!). Many cavers (who I'm led to believe enjoy something of a reputation for short arms and deep pockets) might not want to spend money on a book which has a high proportion of content which doesn't especially interest them.

I guess there's no perfect answer. I do know that my own interest in mining history was stimulated by caving in the Peak District and I certainly appreciate the inclusion of the various mines which are described in COPD.

As far as retail outlets for books is concerned I very much understand Mike's sentiments. Bookshops are wonderful places; books are wonderful things and good books specifically about one's own interests are beyond price.

Wouldn't it be great if someone with the knowledge and time took on the project of writing a "Mines of the Peak District" to be used in parallel with COPD? I'd certainly buy it.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: ttxela on January 10, 2011, 06:15:26 pm

Wouldn't it be great if someone with the knowledge and time took on the project of writing a "Mines of the Peak District" to be used in parallel with COPD? I'd certainly buy it.

Too right it would  :) get it done  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Anon on January 10, 2011, 06:34:01 pm
Who's volunteering then? I'd buy one too, would be interesting!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 10, 2011, 06:42:01 pm
YIPEEEEE ;D :bounce: I got my copy today :read: :clap2: :coffee:

When is MoPD dew out???? I want one too ;D
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Brains on January 10, 2011, 07:14:01 pm
I want a MoPD please, money waiting, one combined volume with CoPD and an Index for preference...
Why are some mines which cant be accessed included like Bondog in, but others with access out, like Silver Eye as mentioned above, and why not Middleton for the "Armchair Caver" to drive round?
Got our new copy wet today   :'( - will see how the paper and binding stands up
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: droid on January 10, 2011, 07:18:32 pm


Wouldn't it be great if someone with the knowledge and time took on the project of writing a "Mines of the Peak District" to be used in parallel with COPD? I'd certainly buy it.

I don't think it would be 'a' MoPD.  :lol:

But I too would buy one.
Go nicely with Jim Rieuwerts' mighty tome....
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on January 10, 2011, 07:27:54 pm
The only problem with Mike's suggested alternative name is that COPD attempts to describe the caves exhaustively together with any mines of special interest to cavers. If it were to be called "Caves & Mines of the Peak District" it would then have to try to describe all the mines exhaustively as well - this would be a very different animal!

It wouldn't be a guide book of several volumes - more a Library!

I don't think anyone knows precisely how many mines (lead or otherwise) there are in the Peak District, much less enough detail to include much about all of them in a large set of guide books.

At a talk given in our village hall (Winster) last year or the year before by a mine historian there was a map showing locations of mineshafts in Derbyshire.

These were represented by three different kinds of circles. There were many of the first type representing shafts whose location is known and are capped because they are near Public Footpaths, etc.

There were a lot more representing shafts whose location was known but were largely not capped as they were not near any Public Footpaths.

Third, were the circles representing shafts which were known of from mine records but whose location was not precisely known. These were so numerous it looked like the map had spent years hanging up In a pub behind the dartboard! Of course there will also be a lot more whose details are lost.

Of course many caves in the Peak are also part mine and many mines are part cave and these are included in "Caves of the Peak District". If COPD were to include only natural caves, it would be a very slim volume indeed.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jam on January 10, 2011, 08:08:26 pm
I still have 4 shelves that need filling with books, a MoPD library would fit in quite nicely!   8)
Who possesses the knowledge..

What I'd like to see more than anything else is a comprehensive index of all potential digs, available or occuppied. Now this WOULD need to be a wiki page...

just a thought..

Rich
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on January 10, 2011, 08:18:09 pm
I still have 4 shelves that need filling with books, a MoPD library would fit in quite nicely!   8)
Who possesses the knowledge..

What I'd like to see more than anything else is a comprehensive index of all potential digs, available or occuppied. Now this WOULD need to be a wiki page...

just a thought..

Rich

Well volunteered!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on January 10, 2011, 10:10:14 pm
Just the masson area would need a good sized volume, eh Paul?
And a deal of pdhms research.
For all the literature i have seen i still find 'un-recorded ' shafts when out with my collie, Bob
Owd Git.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: zomjon on January 10, 2011, 10:17:00 pm
That's because you've only seen the literature and not read it you old git :tease:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on January 10, 2011, 10:28:42 pm
 :'(  :down:
 ;D over it now, have ya loaded any wicc piccie's to flikr yet jon?
Pm your e-mail i'll send a few zip's.
Owd Git. (indeed)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: jasonbirder on January 11, 2011, 08:13:57 am
Quote
It saddens me to see a few sport cavers treating mines as dispensable adventure playgrounds

Whats wrong with "tourist" trips or "sport" trips...its seems perfectly legitimate to visit these places simply to see and enjoy them...not everything has to be about exploration/surveying/preservation/digging...worthy though those objectives are...

On the subject of a MOPD...I'm in...where do I send my Postal Order LOL!

I guess the thing with COPD is that some Mines are in and some mines aren't and there doesn't seem to be an immediately obvious distinction between the two...I always perceived COPD as a guide book rather than a cave registry so the omission of some of the tiny caves in favour of some mines that are valid trips (IE Snake Mine) or look like interesting prospects (IE Hazard Mine) would have got a thumbs up from me...

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Peter Burgess on January 11, 2011, 08:22:39 am
Quote
Whats wrong with "tourist" trips or "sport" trips...

Nothing at all. If you put the emphasis on the word "dispensable" in my statement then I think you should be able to answer your own question.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 11, 2011, 02:06:31 pm
I guess the thing with COPD is that some Mines are in and some mines aren't and there doesn't seem to be an immediately obvious distinction between the two...I always perceived COPD as a guide book rather than a cave registry so the omission of some of the tiny caves in favour of some mines that are valid trips (IE Snake Mine) or look like interesting prospects (IE Hazard Mine) would have got a thumbs up from me...

On the whole the mines included are ones which are commonly visited by cavers.  This does change from time to time as cavers are able to get into systems which have previously been closed to them, or which have been extended to allow a more "challenging" trip.  I seem to recall seeing somewhere that there are over 8,000 abandoned mines recorded in the Peak District and the vast majority of these are now completely inaccessible.

It is always sensible to include the "tiny caves" because some of them have possibilities for extension but maybe nobody's looked just yet - inclusion in CoPD might just spark someone's interest and lead to new discoveries.

Suggest that you contact John Beck and ask for the next Edition of CoPD to include those mines (or caves) you feel shouldn't have been left out.

Jenny P.

Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: jasonbirder on January 11, 2011, 03:20:38 pm
Hi Jenny! Wasn't intended as a critisism in any way :D I've got my copy and thinks its a tremendous volume!
Its always a balance...if it contained every little thing...that every-one wanted it'd be a multi-volume work and we'd still be waiting for it in 2015 <LOL>
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 11, 2011, 05:56:55 pm
Hello Jason - not sure if you're aware but I am still looking after those items you wanted me to keep back for you.

Please can you PM me?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: playoutside on January 11, 2011, 07:28:13 pm
Can I ask what literature is available for mines in the Peak District to serve purpose as a guide?

I do find myself drawn to our industrial heritage.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on January 11, 2011, 07:32:57 pm
Can I ask what literature is available for mines in the Peak District to serve purpose as a guide?

I do find myself drawn to our industrial heritage.

The best organisation to contact would be the Peak District Mines Historical Society (PDMHS). See pdmhs.com (http://pdmhs.com/)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Jenny P on January 11, 2011, 10:46:17 pm
There is loads of info. on mines in all the PDMHS publications, including some extremely detailed descriptions of certain systems in their Bulletins. 

There is also detailed information in the 3 DCA Conservation Audits on Masson Hill, Jugholes and Cumberland/Wapping - all 3 publications available from DCA, check out the website.

There is also "The Little Red Book", which is still in print I think.  And plenty of other specialist books and reports on specific systems.

However, what there isn't is one single, comprehensive book which covers ALL the mines, both accessible and inaccessible.  (Hardly surprising when there are over 8,000 of them.)  That's why CoPD has to concentrate on those mines which are generally easily accessible and of interest to sporting cavers as well as systems which are combined mine/natural, as so many are in the Peak District.

It would be great if there was a comprehensive book about all the mines but it would take many years to compile and would probably have to be so large that it would cost a bomb to print and be so expensive that almost no-one would be willing to buy a copy.  Sadly, commercial considerations play a large part in what you can publish - as witness all our problems trying to find a publisher for CoPD.  No commercial publisher would touch it so we had to do it all ourselves, and that means paying out a lot of money up front and hoping to recoup it from sales.

Jenny P.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: ttxela on January 12, 2011, 07:39:28 am
Hello Jenny, what is the "Little Red Book" ?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: jasonbirder on January 12, 2011, 08:59:57 am
Completely off topic with regards to COPD, but relevent to the talk of information in journals/old books etc etc...
There doesn't seem to be anyway of "recycling" that information...so its accessible to a current readership...given the limited print runs of most publications (an old COPD was tough enough to get hold of and I'd still like all the volumes of Caves of Derbyshire...even after keeping my eyes open for years!) and the fact that there are literally too many and too much of a backlog of old journals for anyone to own a reasonable percentage...
Its pretty tough!
Building a decent Caving Library even for your local area...(let alone nationally) is a TOUGH ask for anyone...
Perhaps something for Descent to consider...ditch some of the foreign stuff and think about recycling interesting but "old" info to a new audience in a new format?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: owd git on January 12, 2011, 09:11:01 am
Shoot me if i'm wrong but i think all pdhms publications may be obtained via the centre @ matlock bath i( if only by copies on arrangement,) the difinative answer will come flooding in as soon as this is read :thumbsup:
O.G.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 12, 2011, 09:50:00 am
An interesting concept from Jason: "acceptable to a current readership".

There seems to be a feeling amongst many cavers that information produced some time ago isn't accessible if it's not on the interweb. This just highlights one of the many advantages of joining a decent caving club with a library of journals and books. It's all there - and the pleasures of spending a wet afternoon browsing through a caving library if a trip has been bombed out by the weather should be sampled by more people.

Physical libraries might be considered old fashioned by some but they are just as excellent a resource as ever.

(In Jason's case I suspect I'm preaching to the converted; his club has a good library and I know he has an above average interest in caving publications. The above is really a general observation.)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 12, 2011, 10:04:00 am

Quote
There seems to be a feeling amongst many cavers that information produced some time ago isn't accessible if it's not on the interweb.

I guess an awful lot of folks simply dont have the spare time to sit in caving hut libraries drinking tea and perusing. Its not that often that a trip is bombed out by the weather and if you've travelled all the way up to castleton from Fulham for the weekend, chances are you'd rather go and do a different trip.

And as such, Jason's point is an excellent one.

The answer being for clubs to try and get with the times and scan their jounals etc an put em up on line. (even if its just for their own membership if we are to sustain the current interest in joining clubs and attract new members  ;)  )

As you know Pitlamp. the Eldon library is a fantastic archive, but not super accessible to all since its stored at Phil Burkes place. (not that phil objects to anyone going there of course  :bow: and its a damned site better than previously where it was stored in boxes scattered over about 15 different peoples homes all over derbyshire and south yorkshire. )

However, its def. on the EPC list of things to do to get all the EPC jounals scanned and online.  One Day  :down:
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: pwhole on January 12, 2011, 11:57:07 am
As a relative newcomer to cave/mine research, I've had a huge amount of success finding the information by using a combination of:

Mine Explorer
Adit Now (join both)
Sheffield Local Studies Library/Sheffield Archive
PDMHS library

Also note a large number of past PDMHS bulletins are available online - not all, but plenty to be going on with, and there's some real gems in there: http://www.pdmhs.com/BackIssues.asp (http://www.pdmhs.com/BackIssues.asp)

And of course, our friendly, helpful mine historians/researchers, of which we have many in the area. Write to them, introduce yourself, be nice, offer gifts/favours in return, and much will be revealed. I've recently managed to get docs I never though I'd glimpse, never mind read at my leisure..;)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: paul on January 12, 2011, 12:09:03 pm

Quote
There seems to be a feeling amongst many cavers that information produced some time ago isn't accessible if it's not on the interweb.

I guess an awful lot of folks simply dont have the spare time to sit in caving hut libraries drinking tea and perusing. Its not that often that a trip is bombed out by the weather and if you've travelled all the way up to castleton from Fulham for the weekend, chances are you'd rather go and do a different trip.

And as such, Jason's point is an excellent one.


That would be the ideal situation (Club libraries all available online), however most cavers will find the "time to sit in caving hut libraries drinking tea and perusing" if they want to. Finding the time and resources to put eveything online would involve a HUGE amount of time and effort - although it would be nice to have!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 12, 2011, 12:47:04 pm
Just let me try to explain further. An online resource allows you to find an item quickly and efficiently. It's a tool for a job. A caving library is a place in which you enjoy spending time browsing. You come across loads of other things of interest when looking for something specific. It's a rich experience in it's own right and it's usually time well spent. It's certainly an extremely good way to generate ideas for new caving projects.

Believe me Sam - I'm an extremely busy fella - but I don't begrudge using a proportion of what little free time I have in journal browsing. You're right though; it'd be nice if greater internet access were possible as well.

Out of interest, does your club library have a catalogue of what's in it?

By the way, I'm a champion tea drinker - so a library visit for me is double the pleasure!
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: jasonbirder on January 12, 2011, 12:48:57 pm
The online PDHMS journal is a great resource...good work fella's...i've found loads of interest on there and use it regularly! Its a fantastic source of trips/prospects etc...

While the Caving Club Library of your (or others!) clubs is a fantastic resource...its often something you refer to when you "know what you're looking for" (does that make sense?)

Sometimes interesting things, ideas, possible trips, places to go you'd never heard of etc etc... come up out of the blue while you're flicking through things/browsing or re-visiting things for the n'th time...which is something you tend to do more with "whats to hand" than with focused research...

I'm sure if I lived next door to my caving club hut...the library would get used regularly...but like has already been said...if I get a pass from "She Who Must Be Obeyed" (not as many as I used to get <LOL>) I tend to want to spend that time underground <LOL> perhaps what's needed is a Caving "Lending Library" rather than a "Reference Library"...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: Pitlamp on January 12, 2011, 12:58:16 pm
Point taken Jason; mind you, your club library is a good 'un!

(Ta for your PM a moment or two ago - just sent a reply.)
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: SamT on January 12, 2011, 01:15:21 pm

Out of interest, does your club library have a catalogue of what's in it?


Jules Barrett spent most a week sorting it and cataloguing it prior to it going to Phils. He'd done about 5000 items when..

 on the friday night - he had a break in and his laptop was nicked.  :furious:

Nobody can  muster the enthusiasm since.

Quote
Finding the time and resources to put eveything online would involve a HUGE amount of time and effort - although it would be nice to have!

Many hands and all that. i.e. - Eldon need only worry about their journals.. TSG, theirs  ULSA etc etc.
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: pwhole on January 12, 2011, 02:27:52 pm
I'm giving away one of my best sources now, but what the heck - for those who don't know, there's a microfilm-based collection of JW Puttrell and Frank Brindley's newspaper articles at Sheffield Local Studies Library that has kept me transfixed for hours at a time - it's well worth looking through that for all kinds of rare nuggetry, though it can be a tad fanciful and possibly fabricated in certain instances (Brindley was more guilty of that, I'm told). You can print off individual pages at photocopy-quality for 20p a go.

Photos don't come out that great, but the text is usually fine, and very handy to refer back to at 3am when the library isn't open and you can't get to sleep...
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: RobinGriffiths on January 12, 2011, 11:15:14 pm
Picked up mine from the local Royal Mail depot this morning (courtesy of H&H). Great stuff. Well done DCA, Iain, Jenny, John (in alphabetical order)

Anything happening on the Northern Caves front ?
Title: Re: Caves of the Peak District
Post by: moorebooks on January 13, 2011, 08:46:13 am
Hello Jenny, what is the "Little Red Book" ?

The little red book is Lead Mining in the Peak District produced by PDHMS and have several editions http://moorebooks.co.uk/shelves/cart.php?target=product&product_id=17438&category_id=326 (http://moorebooks.co.uk/shelves/cart.php?target=product&product_id=17438&category_id=326) The latest edition was produced by landmark publications and was a similar in design to CotPD but is out print

On the subject of Mines of the Peak DFistrict Byron Machin had a go  with his 4 volumes the idea is there but is not as well presented as other volumes - I have volumes 3 & 4 available at £2.00 each
http://moorebooks.co.uk/shelves/cart.php?target=product&product_id=19577&category_id=326 (http://moorebooks.co.uk/shelves/cart.php?target=product&product_id=19577&category_id=326)
Mike