Author Topic: BCA CRoW Poll Result  (Read 32795 times)

Offline cavermark

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #50 on: December 23, 2014, 05:13:17 pm »
Indeed, this is a very gentle and well-mannered forum compared to many others on the internet. I still shudder when I think of the stream of death threats I received shortly after, in a moment of sheer madness, I happened to post on the "My Little Pony" forum that I marginally preferred "Pinky Pie" to "Princess Twilight Sparkle".

 :lol:  did they hold a referendum on the my little pony site?

(the "Neigh" vote probably won)

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #51 on: December 23, 2014, 06:21:40 pm »
I don't think the campaign can start - it would be against the constitution. I guess we have to wait for the next step, I assume around August to find out if there will or won't be one.

Until then I'm sure we'll all keep debating nicely.

On the second point - another  :thumbsup:

That's a way to make a complete farce out of the whole democratic process and I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen. You asked me if I had an issue with you via PM? I may not have then, but I sure do now.

If this actually does work as an end-run around the BCA doing what has been voted for, then in my usual posting style, **** you, and any who agree with you. I will dissolve the club and ignore anything to do with the BCA. I've tried to play nice, so to speak, but if others are playing dirty, I'm levelling the playing field.

I's been voted for. Let's do what was voted for, not ignoring any sensitive sites genuinely needing protection. Anything else is bull.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 08:03:48 am by Cap'n Chris, Reason: Bad language removed following report to moderator »
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Offline David Rose

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2014, 06:30:35 pm »
I would say that this is a solid mandate, backed by a substantial majority, and given the strength of the views expressed over many months on this forum, and the wide airing the many issues have had, I find this is encouraging. It means the BCA can now go forward as the representative body of our sport to follow through this policy. It will of course be much easier to look for allies in places such as parliament, now that we know that this is the view of a clear majority. At the same time, landowners need not be in doubt that this is what a majority of cavers who bothered to vote think. This can only be helpful.

As the new year approaches, we should be looking to the future, and working on our strategy to get the opinion drawn up by my sister Dinah officially recognised. Equally, the reservations that some have expressed about CROW, especially over conservation, must be respected.  It would be wonderful if the rancour which has characterised the debate for so long could now ease.

Offline Rhys

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2014, 07:01:12 pm »
I don't think the campaign can start - it would be against the constitution. I guess we have to wait for the next step, I assume around August to find out if there will or won't be one.

Until then I'm sure we'll all keep debating nicely.

On the second point - another  :thumbsup:

That's a way to make a complete farce out of the whole democratic process and I sincerely hope that it doesn't happen. You asked me if I had an issue with you via PM? I may not have then, but I sure do now.

If this actually does work as an end-run around the BCA doing what has been voted for, then in my usual posting style, **** you, and any who agree with you. I will dissolve the club and ignore anything to do with the BCA. I've tried to play nice, so to speak, but if others are playing dirty, I'm levelling the playing field.

I's been voted for. Let's do what was voted for, not ignoring any sensitive sites genuinely needing protection. Anything else is bull.

Global Moderator Comment NewStuff: Calm down please. The vote was yes, the campaign is in motion.

If CROW does apply to caving then the law of the land and the BCA constitution are incompatible. The law of the land trumps the constitution. It's not a big deal and it can and will be changed.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 09:24:44 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2014, 07:04:34 pm »
This is not the time to crow about being on the winning side. Neither is it the time to complain about the voting process. It is not the time to bad mouth or denigrate people for expressing their disappointment at the result. Neither is it the time to assume that everything is now resolved. It is the time to take on board the result and act appropriately. It is the time for BOTH sides to accommodate the concerns of EVERYONE. If those who have the job of working with the result can only bear in mind that there was a sizeable minority against the proposition, and that the green light actually means proceed with caution and awareness for other drivers/cavers, then perhaps this whole miserable episode will become history. If not, then I predict some car crashes.

And in response to being equated to a turkey - that is not the problem, its the implication of not having the brains to see that voting yes was the only intelligent option that is totally inappropriate. Resorting to the dictionary to justify a comment is a bit silly too. As I said, time to encourage people to work together, Tim. That would be nice Christmas present.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2014, 07:32:53 pm by Peter Burgess »

Offline bograt

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2014, 07:06:09 pm »
in a moment of sheer madness, I happened to post on the "My Little Pony" forum that I marginally preferred "Pinky Pie" to "Princess Twilight Sparkle".

AARGH, how could you?????? :o :o :o
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Offline bograt

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #56 on: December 23, 2014, 07:12:05 pm »
This is not the time to crow about being on the winning side. Neither is it the time to complain about the voting process. It is not the time to bad mouth or denigrate people for expressing their disappointment at the result. Neither is it the time to assume that everything is now resolved.

Nope, it is the time to be MERRY, HAPPY YULETIDE ONE AND ALL ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline richardg

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #57 on: December 23, 2014, 07:17:49 pm »
 :ang:HAPPY CHRISTMAS !!!! :ang:

Offline Alex

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #58 on: December 23, 2014, 07:35:09 pm »
Happy crowmass
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline droid

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #59 on: December 23, 2014, 07:57:30 pm »
... Just 1400 out of over 6000 cavers, less than 25%, of BCA members have voted for CRoW....

... based on the wishes of less than one in four members.

... in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box. 

I completely agree it is a sad state of affairs but as already stated, it is democracy. Do I like it? No.

As a comparison, in 1997 the Welsh population balloted on Whether Wales should "devolve" and the result was 50.3% "yes" and 49.7% "no" with a turnout of only 50.1%

In round figures, that pretty much equates (ie. roughly this; in fact over 75% in one form or another don't support it, or don't support it enough to tick a box)

As a result, Wales devolved. I voted against it and still live in Wales. I have embraced the change, love the country and I work "with" the regime (and enjoy my life here). I could choose to be "upset" but then it would be just me that suffers. I could choose to fight but I am not likely to win and I would probably spend my life in misery.

It's the same with every democratic process, not every one votes and we all have to live with the consequences.

How we each "handle" the result of that process determines what we each (individually) get out of it.

Ian

Shockingly, and probably in total contradiction of Ian's thoughts on me, I agree with this.

The disappointing thing to me is not that nearly 900 people voted 'no' - it was a democratic option and therefore entirely valid - it was the several thousand people that didn't vote at all.

It wasn't an onerous process.

I also agree that the bickering must cease now, and that we should guide the BCA in a constructive way.

This post is part of that.
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Offline Moose

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #60 on: December 23, 2014, 08:27:54 pm »
Should it get to the stage where BCA are negotiating with the 'powers that be' on the whole issue, I do rather hope that none of the people who they intend to open a dialogue with have enough time on their hands to read this thread.


Offline droid

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #61 on: December 23, 2014, 08:41:40 pm »
No chance of that, I think: most cavers won't have read this thread..... :lol:
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Offline And

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #62 on: December 23, 2014, 08:59:48 pm »
Maybe the majority of cavers didn't vote on it because they don't have particularly strong views either way and don't particularly care about caving politics.:shrug:

Caving is a bit of fun and should be an escapism from the boring stuff of day to day life rather than adding to it!

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #63 on: December 23, 2014, 09:03:50 pm »
That's true. No doubt about it. An insightful comment. You have to 'And it to him.

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #64 on: December 23, 2014, 09:22:31 pm »
Also remember that most of the mine exploration community have BCA membership, but have been advised that it doesn't apply to mines. I therefore suspect that it was largely ignored by that section of the membership.

Chris.
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Offline droid

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2014, 03:59:04 am »
Not by this bit.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2014, 07:32:55 am »

NewStuff: Calm down please. The vote was yes, the campaign is in motion.

If CROW does apply to caving then the law of the land and the BCA constitution are incompatible. The law of the land trumps the constitution. It's not a big deal and it can and will be changed.

I was plenty calm enough when I wrote it. It sums up my level of disdain for that kind of shenanigans. Given it is mentioned in several posts, it will not surprise me to see these spanners try to gain some traction with this, and I'm perfectly serious about walking away from all of this. As has been said, Underground should be fun, and this isn't.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 08:05:14 am by Cap'n Chris, Reason: Christmas Day calm mode engaged »
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2014, 08:17:34 am »
Maybe the majority of cavers didn't vote on it because they don't have particularly strong views either way and don't particularly care about caving politics.:shrug:

Caving is a bit of fun and should be an escapism from the boring stuff of day to day life rather than adding to it!

In my case I held back till the last minute to vote because I could see many pros and cons and I found it very hard to decide. I know many other cavers who were similarly uncertain and they never were able to decide, so the default was their ballot papers weren't sent in. Droid (several posts above) is right - the process of voting was made easy for us. The difficult bit was deciding how to use that vote.

Excellent point in your second sentence And - this is why I frequently mention how grateful I am for the time our BCA officers put in because, like you and me, I'm sure they'd rather be out there caving too.

Offline Mark

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2014, 09:19:09 am »
Should it get to the stage where BCA are negotiating with the 'powers that be' on the whole issue, I do rather hope that none of the people who they intend to open a dialogue with have enough time on their hands to read this thread.

My thoughts exactly Moose, I am glad our patch doesn't really need all this bollocks.

Offline cavermark

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2014, 09:54:15 am »
Happy crowmass

 :lol: :lol: :beer2:

(I hope everyone gets some shiny new toys off Santa (ready to be thrown out of the pram in the new year  ;) )

Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #70 on: December 24, 2014, 09:57:41 am »

NewStuff: Calm down please. The vote was yes, the campaign is in motion.

If CROW does apply to caving then the law of the land and the BCA constitution are incompatible. The law of the land trumps the constitution. It's not a big deal and it can and will be changed.

I was plenty calm enough when I wrote it. It sums up my level of disdain for that kind of shenanigans. Given it is mentioned in several posts, it will not surprise me to see these spanners try to gain some traction with this, and I'm perfectly serious about walking away from all of this. As has been said, Underground should be fun, and this crap isn't.

You might have been calm, but I'm not sure why you got upset with me over it, the BCA have set out the procedure and are following it, not me?

They made it perfectly clear before the poll that if the answer was yes they would need to change their constitution before they could campaign for CRoW.

That will take some time, as they have their own procedures to follow, it looks like the earliest it could happen is August.

If it doesn't happen, then I'm not sure what they'll decide to do.
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Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #71 on: December 24, 2014, 10:15:45 am »
You might have been calm, but I'm not sure why you got upset with me over it, the BCA have set out the procedure and are following it, not me?

They made it perfectly clear before the poll that if the answer was yes they would need to change their constitution before they could campaign for CRoW.

That will take some time, as they have their own procedures to follow, it looks like the earliest it could happen is August.

If it doesn't happen, then I'm not sure what they'll decide to do.

Because your post screams that you are revelling in the idea of a long delay, presumably hoping that the momentum runs out, or people forget about it.  I'm constantly told "Do it the official way" "make sure it's legit" and the like. Attitudes like yours are the reason a lot of people think stuff it, and just go underground anyway. I am very tempted to go back to doing that.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 09:25:52 am by Cap'n Chris, Reason: Christmas Day calm mode engaged »
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Offline Bottlebank

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #72 on: December 24, 2014, 10:24:39 am »
You might have been calm, but I'm not sure why you got upset with me over it, the BCA have set out the procedure and are following it, not me?

They made it perfectly clear before the poll that if the answer was yes they would need to change their constitution before they could campaign for CRoW.

That will take some time, as they have their own procedures to follow, it looks like the earliest it could happen is August.

If it doesn't happen, then I'm not sure what they'll decide to do.

Because your post screams that you are revelling in the idea of a long delay, presumably hoping that the momentum runs out, or people forget about it.  I'm constantly told "Do it the official way" "make sure it's legit" and the like. Attitudes like yours are the reason a lot of people think stuff it, and just go underground anyway. I am very tempted to go back to doing that.

Try reading what I said not what you think I said.

It was a reasonable reply to a reasonable post from Pitlamp.

If you think back to October I was the first person to ask why they couldn't combine the two referendums, to save cost and time, so don't tell me what I'm revelling in.

This was never as simple as one vote and the campaign starts, however much you'd like it to be.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2014, 09:26:10 am by Cap'n Chris, Reason: Christmas Day calm mode engaged »
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Offline paul

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #73 on: December 24, 2014, 10:39:32 am »
Global Moderator Comment Ok, no more bickering or the Topic will be locked. Everyone is entitled to their opinion whether you agree with it or not. Happy Xmas (hopefully).
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Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: BCA CRoW Poll Result
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2014, 12:01:21 pm »
I will admit that yesterday I started to respond to the posting that BCA would need a constitutional change before doing anything and then decided to leave it for a while to calm down.  From my perspective and put simply, BCA Council had agreed a line of approach to this 'problem'.  They decided to remain neutral in the run up to the poll to respect the constitution, despite concerns being expressed that this was not providing members with information.  They put into the statement announcing the poll what they would do if it went for or against.  In the absence of a General Meeting, then Council have the right to decide what actions are within the constitution and what are not.  And in doing so, they are only answerable to a General Meeting.   

The result of the poll gives Council a clear mandate to move along a number of lines which includes negotiating with DEFRA & NE, approaching land owner representatives as well as proposing a change to the Constitution in June 2015.  The only way this work can be stopped is if someone calls a General Meeting before June 2015 to try and reverse the mandate given by the poll.

I will (perhaps injudiciously) remind all antis that the reason I have campaigned for BCA to lead the process, is because I have much more faith in BCA achieving an outcome which keeps land owners on side whether or not CRoW applies to caving, than might be achieved by independent cavers.  Please remember that it only takes one stupid caver to not only trash a cave but also piss off a land owner.  The biggest threat at this time to land owner relationships is a caver insisting to a land owner of his (possible) rights under CRoW.