Author Topic: Strange Therion problem...  (Read 4254 times)

Offline Apocalypso

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Strange Therion problem...
« on: May 25, 2015, 10:13:33 am »
HI,

I'm totally new in Therion and still trying to figure out how it works and so far I managed to import data from PocetTopo and draw some walls:

https://gsafea-dm2306.files.1drv.com/y2piP0I6JRwd_YBzHkFRp10NsR0vRpeUYOmnbpndowR6CPcPb3-qu03XVyKmVUmSWpUu5DQmcWw_S2_QsfQ1lAZbnUdP6SL3XlCllnc_PjXtkl9vLa3P3qLhhEMf8kBV7cmAH1S-kxjPQ-u3r4J3-Au0hZT-UfL63vkAfChe_MTFiM/Untitled-1.jpg

But when I try to export (export map -projection plan -o bpw.pdf)

I got something quite different :/
https://twluvq-dm2306.files.1drv.com/y2pYTxAOgqSq2HtxqIZcTSDxGP0ZI6pf40X8r2Z06i8CAWuFqkLU0448y1llnwn-uRTdLoniQKmf4Pol1PTZMAxvQ4f4i-7L_qxwbbSWe88qZyGCBW1tCBcRzEmtSdi_SIKT_LALvMqalvjFuR6wwfgXrFNZ-7oekSFS5kGrfFLOog/export.jpg

any suggestion is more than welcome..

thx in advance,
Teo

Offline Apocalypso

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2015, 11:01:27 am »
The wire-frame model of above cave...


Offline graham

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2015, 11:09:43 am »
Teo

The two jpgs are coming up with errors & won't open for me.
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Offline andrew

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2015, 03:11:04 pm »
Cannot see the first 2 links without a m$ account, which I do not have.

There is a program for auto importer for pockettopo to therion, generally saves time an errors, but written for my methodology.

https://bitbucket.org/AndrewA/topparser/downloads

Offline Apocalypso

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2015, 04:36:42 pm »
Yeah I know about TopPhraser but I'm getting some errors so I switched to manual porting data from PocketTopo to Therion...



generated pdf:

Offline graham

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2015, 07:33:51 pm »
Firstly. if you are getting errors from a TopParser import can you let us know what, please, so that it can be fixed.

Secondly, based on those two shots, the error is either in the way you've split your file into scraps, or in the way - & possibly the order - in which you've joined your scraps. I would suggest carefully checking how the scraps are divided up and also removing all the joins from your th file and then adding them back in one at a time and seeing what the pdf looks like at each stage.
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Offline graham

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2015, 11:36:15 pm »
I also suspect that some of your lines are inside out.
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Offline andrew

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2015, 08:15:59 am »
Looks like you only have one main scrap, my best guess is one of the stations in the th2 file is has the incorrect name, a station on the right hand side hhas the name of one on the left, so is been dragged accross to thst position.

In your thconfig you can set
debug on

Whic gives you more detail on the pdf about how it has been distorted

Offline mulucaver

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2015, 10:58:48 am »
Looks like you only have one main scrap, my best guess is one of the stations in the th2 file is has the incorrect name, a station on the right hand side hhas the name of one on the left, so is been dragged accross to thst position.

In your thconfig you can set
debug on

Whic gives you more detail on the pdf about how it has been distorted
I agree with Andrew. It's very easy to accidentally click on the map while still in point:station mode. Theron will automatically increment the station number and so you sometimes get two stations with same name in two different places. Try deleting the stations in the problem area using a text editor.
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Offline Swallowneck

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2015, 11:39:14 am »
I used to get lots of this sort of problem when I first started with Therion.
It always turned out to be my fault usually because I was going too fast and not paying attention to detail.
Go back to the scrap and work your way down the lines checking each one, you will probably find an overlapping or even one wall line on top of another, or maybe line that's inside out. If that fails check station naming in the th2 file as Andrew says, it's surprisingly easy to cock this up without trying too hard. Get into the habit of coming out of point or line mode and back to the select arrow after each feature insertion this will help reduce accidental errors.
Find a methodology that works for you when constructing the th2 and stick to it as it can get very confusing working out what's what in a very short space of time. I always start by inserting stations then walls and so on. Keeping to this system minimizes the opportunity for error. Also keep checking the pdf output as the sooner you see an error the easier it is to find.
Another useful tip is to keep the detail in the cave to an absolute minimum. Just draw only what you need to produce a practical map and no more, do you really need every rock, nook and cranny. The same goes for splays in Pocket Topo, it's all too easy to go firing your Disto all over the place, it may seem logical at that moment in the cave but sat at home in front of your PC it's a different matter. Get the Disto person under control get a system for using the Disto and stick to it then life becomes much easier.
Therion is hard at the beginning but stick with it as it gets easier, unfortunately it then gets much harder again.
Good luck. 

Offline graham

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2015, 12:37:06 pm »
Therion is hard at the beginning but stick with it as it gets easier,

That's very true

... unfortunately it then gets much harder again.
Good luck.

That's also true, but the results can be worth it.
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Offline Apocalypso

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2015, 01:05:08 pm »
Well first of 10Q all  :clap2: for all the inputs, it was really helpful and I finally managed to create my first plan in Therion, it was really simple sketch with just one scrap, 15 stations and one outside wall and the problem actually was in one extra station, after deleting problematic station everything looks as it should looks like but now I have couple of more doubts...

First of all my intention is to use Therion just to basically draw walls for the Plan, Extended profile and Projected profile(s) not for details, that part I'll do in Illustrator as I am graphic designer and working in Illustrator on a daily basis and I'm much faster there and have all necessary tolls so I'm just curious if it is a good approach or not? Here is what I have done in Illustator in less than a hour after exporting walls from therion and overlapping it over the graphic that I got out of PocketThopo in autocad format.



So as you can see drawing is not an issue for me, I can do it without Therion at all but I need therion to get 3d model and I'm especially interested in Projected profiles, that's something that I can't get straight out of PocektTopo and if anyone knows if there is a guide for creating Projected profiles it will be simply awesome :) 

Offline Apocalypso

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2015, 01:07:07 pm »
P.S.
I thought I'll get better looking 3D model in Loch after drawing Plan walls but it is not the case?

Also I'll run converter once again afternoon and come back with errors...

Last but not the least, sorry 4 my English, it is not even my 2nd but 3rd language  :shrug:

Offline andrew

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2015, 01:24:57 pm »
The problem with illistrator and the like, is if a loop is closed, the survey sketch moves a bit. On standard drawing programs everything would have to be redrawn, therion does the morphing  for you. Plus many other things, like 3d model overlaying on surface images, combining different caves into one survey etc

There is a plug in for Inkscape that produces therion files, you might find that easier.

Offline Apocalypso

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2015, 07:54:14 pm »
Hmmm, so for the complex caves Therion is sopposed to be better solution but for simple and smaller cave Illustrator looks like the better solution IMO.

like 3d model overlaying on surface images
This is awesome feature, although I still can't get it to work even on the simple sketch as one above :)

Here si what I got when I try to process PocketTopo file with  TopParser

Code: [Select]
Reading the plan (outline)
Reading elevation (sideview)
Successfully read file
Written file Mandica spilja.th
Written Mandica spilja.th and calculated realtive positions
Written file Mandica spilja_p.xvi
Written file Mandica spilja.th2
Written file Mandica spilja_e.xvi
Written file Mandica spiljaEe.th2
('layout file does not exist at: ', u'C:\\Teo\\Test\\common_layout.th')
Written file thconfig
Therion Output
==============
therion 5.3.15
cavern.exe - Survex 1.2.16
initialization file: C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion/therion.ini
reading ... done
configuration file: C:\Teo\Test\Mandica spilja\thconfig
reading ...Press ENTER to exit!

C:\Program Files (x86)\Therion\therion.exe: error -- C:\Teo\Test\Mandica spilja\thconfig [1] -- one file name expected

Data processed
C:\Teo\Test\Mandica spilja\Mandica spiljath.3d does not exist, cannot display 3d
Preparing to open files

Offline andrew

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2015, 09:46:40 pm »
Hmmm, so for the complex caves Therion is sopposed to be better solution but for simple and smaller cave Illustrator looks like the better solution IMO.

That is a nice theory, however, most caves are near other caves, and one day may connect, if you can predict the future, illustrator is fine, for those of us who canmot, programs like therion are a god send.

Re: topParser

The message shows that it has produced the therion files, just cannot automatically process them. There are various reasons for this, but in your case the thconfig is referring to a layout and layout file that do not exist on your machine, remove the references to these, and/or untick the boxes that say process the data and open the 3d file with aven/loch.  I think I will make this the default with the next release (although it will not change the defaults if installed previously)

Offline graham

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2015, 07:45:29 am »

like 3d model overlaying on surface images
This is awesome feature, although I still can't get it to work even on the simple sketch as one above :)


It isn't ever going to be part of your 'simple sketch'. Rather, your sketch is going to be part of it. Firstly you need to generate a therion file of the surface above your cave. You can do this easily by using another clever program, called TerrainTool and, if you have access to the right information, you can drape a surface map or Google Earth type image over that. Then you combine your surface and cave images together in another Therion file and generate a lox file including both surface and underground features from that. You can also generate kml files from Therion for Google Earth, but I find those far less satisfying than the full 3d experience.

And I agree with Andrew, the problem with doing the 'final' drawing using Illustrator or similar tools is that if the cave is extended, especially if a new loop closure distorts it a bit, or is connected to another cave then all your Illustrator work is wasted. With Therion it isn't.
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Offline wookey

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Re: Strange Therion problem...
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2015, 04:16:30 pm »
If you really do want to use illustrator (because it is pretty), then you might want to take a look at WALLS, which allows morphing, export to illustrator, then re-import and morphing again. It's not as capable as therion but it does mean you are not completely stuck if your cave connects/extends.

I have never used it myself as it only runs on Windows, but just thought you should be aware of it as an option.