Author Topic: More media - an alternative view  (Read 8984 times)

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #50 on: April 08, 2016, 07:37:29 am »
I may as well post this here as anywhere.

The mining exploration and history community desperately needs new, younger people. To my mind, the logical place to look was the caving community, hence my involvement with CCC, registering to this site, etc.

From what I am seeing, I am having second thoughts.

Please don't have second thoughts, Roy.  UKC are actively trying to support and encourage younger cavers - plans are afoot for CHECC 2016 for example.  Ok so the past few days has seen some heated debate, however over the past couple of years, the atmosphere on UKC has improved greatly and the site is busier than ever.

Cheers, Jane

In support of the sentiments that Pegasus expressed here, the past couple of days has also seen some valuable contributions from various angles, all of which are worth considering. I don't personally agree with some but they've been well expressed and they made me think carefully. Surely this is a positive thing?

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #51 on: April 08, 2016, 08:16:36 am »
. . .  in fact, although Badlad and I have somewhat differing opinions on the CRoW situation we've just exchanged very civil PMs via this forum.

It really is possible to disagree with someone without falling out in any way.
We cavers have so much in common; if more folk could express opinions in a friendly way we'd all be better off.

I've enjoyed reading Roy Fellows' valuable posts and I hope he continues to contribute.

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #52 on: April 08, 2016, 04:36:30 pm »
Another of my tenets for forums is that it is possible to argue vehemently without becoming mortal enemies.

Well said Pitlamp.
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Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2016, 08:37:22 pm »
In the interests of fairness and completness, some more from Darkness Below
http://darknessbelow.co.uk/?p=1603

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2016, 08:38:20 pm »
And still nothing from the pro-CRoW lobby?
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Offline TomTom

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2016, 08:41:17 pm »
As requested...


Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #56 on: April 08, 2016, 08:47:18 pm »
And still nothing from the pro-CRoW lobby?
What would you like?


Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #57 on: April 08, 2016, 08:53:23 pm »
A riposte to the allegedly (by you) fact-free article on DB.

There's been several general requests.....
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Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #58 on: April 08, 2016, 08:59:46 pm »
Which article in particular would like a riposte upon - ther have been many, and my opinion of them varies.
I have made many comments (perhaps far too many!  ;) )
Editorials are an expression of opinion - nowt wrong with that of course. Other articles are more reports on events

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #59 on: April 08, 2016, 09:00:47 pm »
Some more media... "Darkness Below" has published an editorial by Linda Wilson, essentially the BCA should ignore the referendum and return to rolling over in front of the landowners, all resistance is futile and no progress will ever be made...
This is largely a report of various published queries and the published responses to them. Only at the end is there any opinion expressed. It is therefore largely a NEWS item with a view appended. But let's call it an "editorial" then we can ignore the whole thing as a bit of propaganda.

Offline cavermark

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #60 on: April 08, 2016, 09:01:34 pm »
And still nothing from the pro-CRoW lobby?

No response in 58 seconds after the link was posted? outrageous!  :tease:

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #61 on: April 08, 2016, 09:04:58 pm »
The original request is months old.
On here. You might recognise one of the correspondants.


http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=19628.0
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Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2016, 09:08:25 pm »
The above is for Brains.....lol
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2016, 09:09:34 pm »
The door is always open.

Offline Bob Mehew

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2016, 09:10:27 pm »
OK I will rise to the bait.  I am awaiting to hear what has been said in reply to the communications which were received by several people on BCA Council which hopefully will be forthcoming tomorrow.  I was not party to the replies though I supplied some material for one of them, so sense it unwise to make any comment at this moment.  Now I am off the internet and getting to bed as I have to dodge Aintree tomorrow by an early morning start.

Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2016, 09:14:05 pm »
Your contributions would be welcome, Bob. We don't bite.

Offline molerat

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2016, 09:15:17 pm »
And still nothing from the pro-CRoW lobby?

1. Public safety - Gaping Gill is fenced, and if it and Jib Tunnel were 10m from the car park in Clapham then they would not be on access land.

Caves on access land are natural features, just like the cliffs, bogs and pointy rocks that can be found on access land all over the British countryside. They are all natural hazards that the public are expected to be able to deal with.

Where exactly would there be a danger to public safety? Nobody expects any gates to be removed from caves that are currently gated.

There are many open potholes and cave entrances on access land that already have free access. DEFRA have admitted that access to every other pot/cave on access land is already allowed up to the limit of daylight. Surely access beyond this limit in the restricted caves poses little meaningful additional danger.

Trying to restrict access to some caves in order to discourage non-club cavers is just daft. Many cavers legitimately cave outside of the club system. Access to restricted caves in the Dales and in South Wales is being extended to non-club cavers anyway.

2. As above, nobody expects any gates to be removed from caves that are currently gated. Permit systems were never intended to magically distinguish between responsible cavers and vandals. There are not hordes of would-be cavers standing around waiting for the right to go down restricted caves on access land.

3. This just sounds like more unsubstantiated rumours to me. The CRoW Act provides liability benefits to landowners. I wonder how much of these supposed upset landowners have been told by a few angry cavers that cave access under CRoW would be the end of the world? Most landowners in the Dales are supportive of increased access.

Offline Brains

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2016, 09:20:49 pm »
The original request is months old.
On here. You might recognise one of the correspondants.


http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=19628.0
Just been refreshing myself on that topic - seems everything was answered to my satisfaction at least back then. As you have no doubt also re read the thread  your requested riposte is there already.
This whole issue is very fraught and tangled, guess it is time to leave the whole thing to a fitter, more politically savvy bunch of enthusiasts. Over to them.
All this wrangling is bad for my health and my blood pressure so I will leave you with this old saw.
"Not my monkeys, not my circus"

Offline bograt

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2016, 11:48:52 pm »
I suspect a certain amount of mis-information has been fed to the ABIS, the credibility of their comments is put into question by the comment;

Quote - "impact of changing the legislation"
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2016, 11:56:43 pm »
Really? Do you not think ABIS are quite capable of working out what their concerns are without being fed lines? Such comments are simply driving our ABIS colleagues and cavers further apart, which is precisely what nobody should be seeking to do. Just think for a moment about how good relationships are between show caves and cavers, what trust exists between them, and what you are implying by making such a suggestion. I believe ABIS have expressed their concerns precisely because they do not want to see the good relationship established over many years being ruined by rash actions on the part of the caving community.

Offline jasonbirder

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #70 on: April 09, 2016, 12:04:16 am »
Quote
Because we ALL know...that if we mess about with this issue...sure as apples are apples - the people that object "because they care about conservation" will be back objecting "because they care about digging" or "because they worry about Landowner relations" "are unsure about insurance Implications or "Bats" or whatever the objection du jour is...

Its like I can predict the future...only the other day I mentioned that the anti-CRoW lobby would be able to come up with yet another "objection du jour"
And...here it is...

It'll upset showcave owners

Do I win anything...

Offline bograt

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #71 on: April 09, 2016, 12:20:26 am »
Someone must have told them the BCA are campaigning for a change in legislation????
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Offline Peter Burgess

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #72 on: April 09, 2016, 08:38:40 am »
Perhaps they read it for themselves in one of those badly reported press items.

Offline Madness

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2016, 09:02:40 am »
It seems that all the press reporting from the standpoint of the 'CRoW cautious' are failing to mention in their articles an important fact - the BCA vote. It is obvious to me the the 'CRoW cautious' are being very selective with what they feed the press/MPs/showcave owners - manipulation is a good word for it.

I've heard it suggested that they might even be telling blatant lies.

Offline droid

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Re: More media - an alternative view
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2016, 02:56:12 pm »

I've heard it suggested that they might even be telling blatant lies.

I've *read* it on here....

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