Author Topic: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?  (Read 15266 times)

Offline Simon Wilson

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1645
    • IC Resin Anchor
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #50 on: January 10, 2018, 09:44:16 am »
How did you get your position on the BCA, Badlad?

Tim Allen (Badlad) was appointed to his post because his wishes and his active campaigning are perfectly aligned with the wishes of the BCA which is the exact opposite of Linda Wilson.

Online Badlad

  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #51 on: January 10, 2018, 11:08:15 am »
How did you get your position on the BCA, Badlad?

I was co-opted by council for the role.  The details of how it works are explained in the constitution.  There is a vote of council on co-opted officers every year  (there are quite a few).

The background to my own appointment started with the vote on whether the BCA should campaign for CRoW to apply to caving back in 2014.  My interest in this issue had been sparked by the discussions on ukcaving and I had researched the matter further to the point that I helped put the briefing information together for Dinah Rose QC.  Following the vote the BCA executive invited me to a round table meeting to discuss what they should do.  It was logical that any access campaign should be run through the BCA Conservation and Access Officer (C&A) with help from the exec as and when.  By mid 2015 the C&A Officer's position had become clear and he advised council that he had to step away from any campaign due to a conflict of interest with his employers.  This left a rather gaping hole in the campaign that the membership had voted for and council discussed several options including splitting the C&A role.  In the end they decided to create the co-opted role of CRoW Liaison Officer to fulfil the expectations of the members following the vote.  I volunteered for the role and was voted in.

Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #52 on: January 10, 2018, 12:25:37 pm »
..... and I doubt a better person could have been found.

It is clear that Tim has worked extensively and tirelessly for the benefit of promoting the recreational sport of caving. I have no doubt that he has taken on and accomplished more than even the best of us have seen.

To be blunt, the BCA and caving need people like this.

 :)

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline Greg Jones

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 678
  • GSS
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #53 on: January 10, 2018, 06:29:53 pm »
 :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
Renegade!

Online TheBitterEnd

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1458
  • KCC
    • KCC - Join an active club
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #54 on: January 10, 2018, 06:41:12 pm »
..... and I doubt a better person could have been found.

It is clear that Tim has worked extensively and tirelessly for the benefit of promoting the recreational sport of caving. I have no doubt that he has taken on and accomplished more than even the best of us have seen.

To be blunt, the BCA and caving need people like this.

 :)

Ian

Hear! Hear!  Well said Ian. We all have a lot to thank Tim and Jane for.
'Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.' — Mark Twain

Online Badlad

  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #55 on: January 10, 2018, 09:11:12 pm »
Thanks very much - that is almost too much for me to hear and it will incense some folk who don't agree.

I wrote a second part to the above post this morning which summarised my experience in the role until now.  I decided not to post it as I was in a rush to go caving today.  I'll rethink about posting tomorrow.   :-\

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • WMRG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #56 on: January 11, 2018, 04:06:16 am »
The disagree-er isn't 'incensed'.

Just saddened by the amount of money and effort the BCA have spent on what is probably going to be a wild goose chase.

To those that say some (a lot?) of this money/effort was spent heading off the sour malcontents that 'lost', consider this: they set out their objections quite early on in the debate. So why didn't someone - anyone - get the Constitution problems sorted before the Ballot? 

If this money and effort had been spent on educating landowners and conservation, how much more could have been achieved now, rather than *possibly* at some point in the distant future?

No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline BradW

  • menacing presence
  • **
  • Posts: 200
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #57 on: January 11, 2018, 08:09:26 am »
Incensed? A combination of bemusement and sorrow is more like it. Credit those who hold different views with a modicum of maturity please!

Offline tony from suffolk

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2524
  • Old codger
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #58 on: January 11, 2018, 09:23:30 am »
Someone's sour grapes are showing.
"Aim low, achieve your goals, avoid disappointment"

Online Badlad

  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1624
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #59 on: January 11, 2018, 09:27:15 am »
Very little money has been spent on an actual campaign.  In two and a half years I can only recall claiming for some travel and a pop up banner - say £500.

The exec decided on the original poll about running a campaign back in 2014 that cost several thousand. 

The issue about section 4.6 of the constitution was dealt with by council and the exec several times.  However the anti-CRoW lobby wouldn't leave it alone and at the 2016 AGM in Mendip the chair (under pressure) accepted a motion to change the constitution at the next AGM.  That was done costing another few thousand but also included other constitutional changes.

So BCA has spent most of the money ensuring the CRoW issue is dealt with democratically and very little actually campaigning.  At last Saturdays meeting council gave the go ahead to increase insurance costs by £8000 across the membership.  This was to meet the higher insurance demands of the Longleat estate and ensure continued access to caves in Cheddar such as Reservoir hole which could be lost without it.  Access to caves costs a lot of money too.   Safeguarding access to some 2000+ caves with a legal right seems a good idea to me. 

Offline MJenkinson

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 478
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #60 on: January 11, 2018, 01:57:11 pm »
Safeguarding access to some 2000+ caves with a legal right seems a good idea to me.

This.

Offline Peregrina

  • regular
  • *
  • Posts: 43
  • SUSS, TSG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #61 on: January 11, 2018, 05:16:07 pm »
Very little money has been spent on an actual campaign.  In two and a half years I can only recall claiming for some travel and a pop up banner - say £500.
 
[...]
So BCA has spent most of the money ensuring the CRoW issue is dealt with democratically and very little actually campaigning.  At last Saturdays meeting council gave the go ahead to increase insurance costs by £8000 across the membership.  This was to meet the higher insurance demands of the Longleat estate and ensure continued access to caves in Cheddar such as Reservoir hole which could be lost without it.  Access to caves costs a lot of money too. 

That's £500 compared to £10k+. Sounds like the CRoW campaign could be quite the money-saver really, if the campaigners are allowed to get on with it now.
Speleotramp

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • WMRG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #62 on: January 11, 2018, 08:54:23 pm »
How much did the ballot re the Constitution change cost?

And with a bit of preparation, could this not have been combined with the CRoW ballot?

I'm not accusing Badlad of going on BCA-sponsored freebies, and fully appreciate the amount of his OWN time he's spent on this subject, but feel the entire process was very inefficiently managed.

Hindsight has 20:20 vision though....
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • ucet
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2018, 09:28:55 pm »
, but feel the entire process was very inefficiently managed.

Hindsight has 20:20 vision though....

you could always get off your arse and volunteer your own free time

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • WMRG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2018, 09:36:38 pm »
I voted 'no'..... :lol: :lol: :lol:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • ucet
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2018, 09:39:04 pm »
 :down: :down: :down:

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • WMRG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2018, 10:07:29 pm »
Mike: why the f**k should I volunteer to help something I don't agree with?

I won't stand in the way of those that do, and I've said before the BCA should just crack on, but that's as far as I'm going on that one.... :lol:
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Online andrewmc

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 735
  • EUSS, BEC, YSS, prov. SWCC...
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2018, 11:04:49 pm »
How much did the ballot re the Constitution change cost?

And with a bit of preparation, could this not have been combined with the CRoW ballot?

I'm not accusing Badlad of going on BCA-sponsored freebies, and fully appreciate the amount of his OWN time he's spent on this subject, but feel the entire process was very inefficiently managed.

Hindsight has 20:20 vision though....

Even now it still seems surprising that it was necessary to take the same subject which appeared repeatedly decided (referendum, council ruling etc) so far. Probably in actual legal terms, if ever tested in court, there was never any doubt that the constitution did not provide any impediment to campaigning as it stood. But it was sadly necessary to demonstrate this again and again... It was no doubt cheaper and easier to just change the constitution to appease the minority than (somehow) 'test it in court', and in any event the political aspect was far more important than the actual technical one - it didn't matter if people were correct in thinking that the constitution provided an impediment, it merely mattered that they _believed_ it did, or chose to appear to believe to support their overall political stance, and it was unacceptable to be seen to be ignoring even a minority of BCA's members' concerns, well-founded or otherwise. At least the issue _finally_ seems settled...

Like you say, hindsight.

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • ucet
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2018, 11:24:36 pm »
Mike: why the f**k should I volunteer to help something I don't agree with?

I won't stand in the way of those that do, and I've said before the BCA should just crack on, but that's as far as I'm going on that one.... :lol:

I don't know why the likes of you bother caving at all, you think because "the majority " of the caving community are pro-caving, you think we Are anti conservation.

Offline Ian Adams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1217
  • UCET
    • UCET Caving Club (North Wales)
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #69 on: January 11, 2018, 11:51:57 pm »
Every single caver I know (both pro-CRoW and anti-CRoW) respect the environment they are in and both proffer and practice conservation (including some very well known people on here). I don’t even know why “conservation” is an argument in the CRoW debate.

Regardless, it is the “militant minority” that has consistently thrown proverbial spanners in the work, the “militant minority” that have consistently driven to undermine the wishes of the majority, the “militant minority” that has sought to derail the majority vote on technicalities (like the interpretation of the constitution) and it is the “militant minority” who have wasted the money of the BCA.

They are still doing it by whatever means they can muster.

Get a grip people.

Ian
A door, once opened, may be stepped through in either direction.

Offline cavemanmike

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 544
  • ucet
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #70 on: January 11, 2018, 11:59:00 pm »
Fair play Ian.
Eloquently put  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • WMRG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #71 on: January 12, 2018, 03:27:39 am »

I don't know why the likes of you bother caving at all, you think because "the majority " of the caving community are pro-caving, you think we Are anti conservation.

You don't know what I think. So your assumption is rather groundless, unless you can find a quote of mine where I've said that 'proCRoW' people (rather than 'pro-caving') are anti conservation.
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'

Offline NewStuff

  • Vocal proponent of Open Access
  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 726
  • www.dddwhcc.com
    • Deep Dark Dirty WetHoles
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #72 on: January 12, 2018, 06:57:49 am »
Credit those who hold different views with a modicum of maturity please!

A few of those who oppose CRoW have caused immense problems, and seem to be hell-bent on carrying on doing so, irrespective on what the outcome of the vote was. Seems much like my daughter - appears to be lovely, right until she she can't get her own way and throws a strop. Difference is, she's 9 and is chancing her arm to chocolate for breakfast, not old enough to know better and trying to de-rail a democratic process.

Maturity? Might want to ask "your side" to brush up on that first, before going slinging mud around.
Permission? Wassat den?

Offline Cap'n Chris

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 12255
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #73 on: January 12, 2018, 07:17:36 am »
Every single caver I know (both pro-CRoW and anti-CRoW) respect the environment they are in and both proffer and practice conservation (including some very well known people on here). I don’t even know why “conservation” is an argument in the CRoW debate.

I can help with an answer.

It is good to hear that all the cavers you know respect the cave environment: sadly, however, people who do not respect the cave environment venture underground. We know this for a fact because of:

graffiti, scratched and spray painted
broken gates
broken formations
trampled tape or
removed tape
litter, including faeces
photographs of people sitting on, or putting their arms/legs around, standing on, or leaning against delicate formations
mud sculpting
mud throwing

One of the reasons why conservation education has relevance to the CRoW topic is that the legislation will provide statutory rights to anyone - i.e. uneducated, uncaring public - to venture into caves on tracts of access land.

Offline droid

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
  • WMRG
Re: BCA legal officer - Linda Wilson? Really?
« Reply #74 on: January 12, 2018, 07:39:32 am »
'A few'.....not all.

Anyway, there's not an argument any more.

Votes' been cast, decision made, crack on. Bollocksing on about 'sour grapes' and  second-guessing what people think is pretty irrelevant.

*that took 4 goes before the spellchecker let 'irrelevant' through.....*
No longer 'Exceptionally antagonistic' 'Deliberately inflammatory'