Author Topic: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law  (Read 942 times)

Offline Alex

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 3866
  • BRCC, UWFRA.
Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« on: September 11, 2018, 12:45:21 pm »
It seems like they are wanting to change the law so they can turf off travellers off private land.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45479975

You may be asking, what has that got to do with caving access? Well we all know that some like to pirate occasionally, and at the moment that is not a criminal offence but I assume if "Deliberate trespass" referenced in the article becomes a criminal law it's a whole different ball game and could mean all sorts of issues for caves without permits, on non-open access land, even cavers going to jail. I am not saying anyone should be doing it anyway, but it's something to look out for if the law does change.

I am sure some of you would welcome this, but I for one am quite worried, we should not be in a country where cavers could go to jail just for going caving. Also think about all the Urbex explorers.

Perhaps someone in the official organisations should voice (mine?) our concerns, as I doubt cavers and urbex explorers would have even crossed the government's mind.

As it's already like that in Ireland, have any cavers there been prosecuted for caving?
Anything I say is represents my own opinion and not that of a any club/organisation that I am a member of (unless its good of course)

Offline mikem

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 2528
  • Mendip Caving Group
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2018, 12:51:51 pm »
Although, what are the chances of the police responding in the time frame a caver is likely to be there - except for diggers who are already covered by aggravated trespass..?

Mike

Offline Speleotron

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 417
  • YUCPC, ULSA
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2018, 12:58:31 pm »
The police never showed up when my house was broken into so they aren't going to drive up to a fellside somewhere in the hail to investigate a caver.
In search of taverns measureless to man

Offline Benfool

  • obsessive maniac
  • ***
  • Posts: 404
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2018, 01:28:03 pm »
I had the police contact me when somebody complained I had trespassed on their land and wrote down my van number-plate. She claimed that I was aggressive and refused to get off her land, even though it was her that was aggressive and I wasn't even on her land when she caught me.

I sent the copper an email and told him I had nothing to say and I considered the matter closed! He never got back in touch!

Offline royfellows

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1121
    • mineexplorer.com
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2018, 02:38:26 pm »
I would not worry about it as the proposed change in the law is specifically 'targeted'.
Its an offence under the Road traffic Act to drive more than 15 yards off a public road without the consent of the landowner. However this is only targeted at illegal off roaders. I have passed police vehicles on Forestry roads in an ordinary motor car without being challenged. A convoy of Land Rovers with exhausts sticking up out of the roof and wheels bigger than a mini could find differently
Glad NAMHO 2019 over.

Offline Cave_Troll

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
  • SUSS
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/cave_troll/
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2018, 02:51:06 pm »
but the law is there and if the police wanted to they could choose to pursue you on those forestry tracks, even if you're in a skoda.

Local authorities have, i think, been criticised for using investigative powers intended for anti-terrorism to pursue people who don't clear up behind their dogs.

Photography of a police officer is not a crime, unless that officer is engaged in anti-terror activities.
There is plenty of footage of normal beat bobbies claiming to be engaged in such activities because they don't like being filmed.

Offline nickwilliams

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1445
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2018, 03:10:53 pm »
There isn't any legislative proposal for this so far as I am aware. What there is, is a petition via the Parliament pertition process arguing for a change in the law. If it gets enough signatories then it will get debated in Parliament.

The impetus for this comes primarily from farmers and other landowners who have problems with 'travellers' taking over pieces of land on a temporary or permanent basis, or have trouble with unauthorised hunting or 'sports' activities on their land, and who do not feel the police response they have had has been satisfactory.
"Economics is simply the branch of sociology that deals with people trading items and the fact that they use more numbers does not make it anymore of a science."

Offline Simon Beck

  • forum star
  • ****
  • Posts: 512
    • Legends Session
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2018, 03:27:26 pm »
I was at school at the time but remember this was big news in the early 90s, with little change I assume. The dales I recall were overrun with pockets of new age travelers, especially country lay-bys. Many were piled high with quarry waste to discourage this. Our school bus went past Linton Camp, near threshfield, which at the time had been taken over by them, the abuse that came out of those bus windows by us twice daily was disgraceful. I believe local farmers were given immunity from the law, if you know what I mean, and drove them off eventually. The damage to drystone walls around the camp was significant, not to mention within the camp. The old swimming pool had been used as a latrine for a lengthy period. 

Offline Bob Mehew

  • forum hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1215
  • breaking knots is fun
Re: Seemingly un-connected, possible change in the law
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2018, 04:56:39 pm »
An interesting point.  The topic came up in a Commons adjournment debate on Monday.  The Minister's response to the points raised can be read at Col 575 in https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2018-09-10/debates/68763C76-2B43-4E6C-8DC0-0420571EDB95/GypsiesAndTravellers though it is the penultimate paragraph which gets to the issue. 

The Government had a consultation exercise in Spring (see https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/powers-for-dealing-with-unauthorised-development-and-encampments )and is now considering submissions made in response to the consultation.  They are committed to issuing a formal response to the submissions.  It would be useful if any one could put up a prompt when they issue this document, so BCA has the option of considering it in the light of the concern of unexpected consequences.