Author Topic: The paddlers have it  (Read 3573 times)

Online Badlad

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The paddlers have it
« on: December 04, 2018, 12:26:54 pm »

Offline mikem

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Offline SamT

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 02:49:41 pm »
I suspect they're up against some massively powerful/influential/rich landowners.

I doubt the top 10% percent want the plebs rowing up and down the rivers that run through their gardens estates

Offline idriswilliams

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2018, 04:31:30 pm »
Perhaps their document should provide a framework for BCA to formulate a policy on access to caves on Crow open access land.
Idris Williams

Offline Ed

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 07:24:38 pm »
Perhaps their document should provide a framework for BCA to formulate a policy on access to caves on Crow open access land.
Idris Williams

Perhaps joint working with the aim of land access like Scotland?

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 07:26:52 pm »
I have taken a look at the presentations accessed by the links here and I am appalled by them. Total misrepresentation of how virtuous canoeists are and anglers are not, about the (in reality very few), good works canoeists do, with no recognitions of anyone else and the work they do, for the environment, for youth and more. There is unimaginative use of buzz words and current health concerns, as if canoeing is the answer to everything. Let's address some facts - canoeists have demonstrated no wish to pay to use the waters in the same way as anglers do, to the Environment Agency, monies in part used towards the health and maintenance of rivers. Canoeists as a group have a history of refusing to negotiate with land owners and legitimate water users and of withdrawing from or ignoring agreements. They also have a record of disruptive and aggressive behaviour to others. Canoeists demand Rights that no-one else in the UK have - no-one has the right to go wherever they want and do as they like and certainly not at the inconvenience or expense of others. It is time to drop the "navigable" nonsense - what by, poo-sticks? It matters not if my local river was declared navigable by the Romans or King whoever hundreds of years ago as it is not the same river now and, as a single example, harnessing its power in the Industrial Revolution put paid to navigation. Laws become obsolete, they fall out of use and stop being Laws without the need to be repealed. The efforts made by and on behalf canoeists in this direction have been proved, in Law, to be a invalid. It is way past time that canoeists accepted that they live where they live and the reality of this; this is not a wilderness but an overcrowded island, every inch of which is owned by someone. They need to learn that they should negotiate, not demand, as this is the way progress is made. I believe that cavers should take no notice of the example canoeists are making and should continue with the well thought out and responsible route the majority take. If my views above sound totally biased I can add that when my Partner, who knew my feelings about the nuisance canoeists, first visited my home she looked down the garden and said "what's that?". "My canoe" I answered. Yes, I have been there and know the pleasures, enjoyed legally but illegally, inconsiderately and wrong too. I know better now.         

Offline MJenkinson

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 09:33:03 am »
Canoeists demand Rights that no-one else in the UK have     

Fairly sure that rivers are open access in Scotland.

Offline thomasr

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 11:11:35 am »
Things are a little different for Scotland in law, and a little more mutual respect i guess paddlers keeping clear of the tay in salmon fishing season. However their is much more waterway per user so it can be difficult to compare the 2 nations on a like for like basis

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2018, 08:26:41 am »
There have been problems in Scotland, between anglers, rafters and paddlers, all wishing to use the same water at the same time. I hope that these have now been resolved. Commercial interest come into play here, with fishing being expensive and rafting companies wishing to make a profit. Rafting companies can be a menace, outside Scotland, using waters they have no right to be using, disrupting the legitimate and paid for pursuits of others, making money and giving nothing back.

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2018, 09:47:09 am »
However, they definitely aren't to blame for the parlous state of fish stocks:
https://www.speycaster.co.uk/single-post/2018/05/06/Salmon-Fishery-Owners-Take-Heed

& how come anglers & canoeists manage to coexist in USA, New Zealand & western Europe..?

Offline SamT

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2018, 11:01:51 am »

& how come anglers & canoeists manage to coexist in USA, New Zealand & western Europe..?

Because their much much much much much bigger countries, with generally much much much much much more space for everyone to share ???

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 11:17:26 am »

Offline Cap'n Chris

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 11:23:36 am »
There have been problems in Scotland, between anglers, rafters and paddlers, all wishing to use the same water at the same time. I hope that these have now been resolved. Commercial interest come into play here, with fishing being expensive and rafting companies wishing to make a profit. Rafting companies can be a menace, outside Scotland, using waters they have no right to be using, disrupting the legitimate and paid for pursuits of others, making money and giving nothing back.

It is normal for companies (by definition) to seek a profit; without it they cease to exist. The comment regarding companies having no right to use waters seems odd, especially if paddlers and other users are allowed - are they effectively not the same thing? As for the comment regarding giving nothing back that seems pretty hostile - rafting companies might well be the principle source of converts to paddling/rafting who subsequently buy their own gear and take up the pursuit, spending money and becoming patrons for accommodation, food etc.. To seek to separate professional/commercial interests away from amateurs is an old cliche, particularly beloved of the caving world, but the sooner such a mindset dies out, the better, imo.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:32:57 am by Cap'n Chris »

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 01:11:14 pm »
The companies referred to are operating on disputed waters, nothing to do with professional v amateur, but more to do with the arguments that brought in open access land.

At the moment there is nothing clear cut about access ALONG rivers being legal or illegal in England & Wales. Many ancient mills had to remove, or have sluices in, their weirs, so boats could pass through. Nowadays the land registry are recording ownership to the edges of the river, unless deeds show the centre as being the boundary. Access TO the river is a different matter & is covered by trespass laws.

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 08:22:14 pm »
I read the last post and thought initially that I was basically in agreement with it. However, on reading it through again I find that more explanation is required. Acknowledging that mikem might have examples I do not know of I would offer the following:
Regarding "disputed waters" those disputes on waters I know of come by way of some people wishing to use waterways that they have no right or entitlement to use.
The only "ancient mills" I know of can be found on old maps and have long ceased to exist. I do know Mills dating back to the beginning of the Industrial Revolution but would not describe these as "ancient". I know of no Mills which have had to remove their weirs or had sluices put in them "so boats could pass through". Sluices are fitted to Mill weirs to adjust water height, holding water back for power or releasing it in times of flood. Removing weirs and opening sluices would lower water height, which would restrict navigation. Boats do not pass through sluices. Boats pass through locks in order to negotiate weirs. My local river had Mills at every town and village along it and except for reasons of flood prevention all are intact. This river flows into another that has had weirs built to enable boats to use it. If we were to pursue a weirs discussion further how do gauging weirs stand in this argument? Where has this weirs and sluices argument come from?
The issue of the legality of access along rivers is interesting, returns us to basic access issues and but also has a hint of the spurious "no-one owns the water" argument. The Land Registry note, is also interesting and if correct would surely require an major change in the Law in this country?   

Offline thomasr

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 08:57:37 pm »
All very interesting and food for thought.  Then,  when a river decides to change its course,  where do boundaries lie ? 

Offline Ed

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 10:49:01 pm »
Much of Magna Carta was concerned with things like the removal of fish weirs to allow navigation

Offline Greg Jones

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 10:22:43 pm »
Canoeists need to negotiate?
Canoeists have been negotiating all of my life, and it has got them nowhere. Negotiating with anglers is evn more difficult than negotiating with the EU. They have no reason to give an inch, so they don't.
So Mr Tripod, you can shove you well-meant words where the sun don't shine thank-you very much. I have listened to the sort of shite that you spout all my life, and I am sick to death of it.
Don't bother responding, because I have absolutely no interest in reading anymore of your crap.
Canoeists, wild-swimmers, and other water users need more access to our rivers and lakes; and it will take legislation to get it. I hope that day comes soon.
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Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2018, 12:33:27 am »
Anglers pay serious money for fishing rights.

Canoeists pay sod all.

Mind, them and 'wild swimmers' generally bugger off when a well aimed 2oz swimfeeder lands next to them.... :lol:
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Offline grahams

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 10:25:12 am »
Anglers pay serious money for fishing rights.

And so they should. Anglers take fish out of the river, harm the fish stock and cause serious amounts of pollution that is a danger to wildlife - lost hooks, floats and lead weights. Canoeists cause no pollution and do no harm.
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Offline paul

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 10:41:24 am »
Canoeists need to negotiate?
Canoeists have been negotiating all of my life, and it has got them nowhere. Negotiating with anglers is evn more difficult than negotiating with the EU. They have no reason to give an inch, so they don't.
So Mr Tripod, you can shove you well-meant words where the sun don't shine thank-you very much. I have listened to the sort of shite that you spout all my life, and I am sick to death of it.
Don't bother responding, because I have absolutely no interest in reading anymore of your crap.
Canoeists, wild-swimmers, and other water users need more access to our rivers and lakes; and it will take legislation to get it. I hope that day comes soon.

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Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2018, 11:10:33 am »
Anglers pay serious money for fishing rights.

And so they should. Anglers take fish out of the river, harm the fish stock and cause serious amounts of pollution that is a danger to wildlife - lost hooks, floats and lead weights. Canoeists cause no pollution and do no harm.

Coarse anglers catch and release. Most use barbless hooks and rigs that prevent fish towing gear around in case of line breakage.  Incidents of pollution are often notified first by anglers, and there are many more anglers than paddlers.
Lead shot (except microshot) has been banned for decades, so I'm not sure where the 'serious amounts of pollution' come from.  Don't confuse commercial stillwaters with the sort of places paddlers will be interested in.
Anglers also pay for rod licenses, the money from which goes to waterway management.

Get your facts right, please.
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2018, 05:23:26 pm »
As I don't do much canoeing I cannot really comment much on the issues but as in most sports there is a spectrum between  responsible individuals and complete prats. I have dived for many years at a site near Torquay, on the coast, called Hope's Nose. This is very popular with anglers. Few, if any, give any thought to what their lost lines weights kit etc is doing underwater. I finally got a clean up team going a couple of years ago and we have pulled up over a hundred kilos of lead so far and probably a similar weight in fishing line which is non biodegradable. It traps seabirds and crustacea. So in my book anglers need to think a bit about how they go about their activities (a lot leave their disused bait bags etc all over beaches as well as anybody who has done a beach clean up will confirm). Paddling about in a boat seems a pretty innocent activity unless you start molesting nesting birds.

Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2018, 06:23:54 pm »
When I lived in the North East, I never bought sea weights, just wandered round the rocky bits of Whitley Bay at low tide and scavenged them.

River fishing (where I guess the most paddlers are) is a bit different. Gear is rarely lost.

it's a good point you make RE the good to bad spectrum: people I've fished with wouldn't hesitate to 'educate' anyone behaving badly.
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Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2018, 06:26:46 pm »
Apart from the lines you find hanging in trees...

Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2018, 08:26:56 pm »
True.

However, that's not 'serious amounts of pollution'.... :lol:
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Offline estelle

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2018, 08:48:31 pm »
I have dived for many years at a site near Torquay, on the coast, called Hope's Nose. This is very popular with anglers. Few, if any, give any thought to what their lost lines weights kit etc is doing underwater. I finally got a clean up team going a couple of years ago and we have pulled up over a hundred kilos of lead so far and probably a similar weight in fishing line which is non biodegradable. It traps seabirds and crustacea. So in my book anglers need to think a bit about how they go about their activities (a lot leave their disused bait bags etc all over beaches as well as anybody who has done a beach clean up will confirm).
As a regular sea diver, the fishing industry needs to sort itself... The amount of crap left in the sea by these people from plastic crates, ropes, net, line, weights, hooks, etc. seems to be the greatest level of crap around our wrecks and a hell of a lot washed up on coastlands. Plus things like the damage from scallop dredging....
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Offline SamT

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2018, 09:21:58 pm »
Seems all the contentious caving topics have gone quiet so you lot have found somebody elses argument to get your knickers in a twist over.


Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2018, 10:08:21 pm »
Absolutely :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2018, 10:56:03 am »
Yes, we certainly have found something to "get our knickers in a twist about" though it has some serious relevance to caving and wider issues regarding the use and enjoyment of the countryside generally. Some serious misunderstandings of what others do and do not do showing here and I wonder how they can be resolved?
The canoeists are in a weak position when it comes to negotiation as they wish to change the law of the land and also find themselves in opposition to those with legitimate rights to use what they are seeking. Angling organisations pay a lot of money to buy or rent fishing rights and land. The individual angler pays for his/her Environment Agency license and a further sum to the angling organisation he/she belongs to or land/fishery owner. With these it is likely that the individual will have paid at the very least a three-figure sum just to be able to stand on the water's edge. The organisations and the individuals are unlikely to be favourably disposed to anyone who wishes to use what they have paid for free and further, where this happens, fails to take a responsible approach to this issue. This is reality and as for legislation it is already in place but does not suit everyone. As for the discussion on this forum it was basically civilised and informative and it is regrettable that one individual did not join it except to throw insults.   

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2018, 11:03:31 am »
Exactly the same argument was used for grouse moors before the Kinder trespass....

Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2018, 12:38:22 pm »
Exactly the same argument was used for grouse moors before the Kinder trespass....

But in reverse.

Kinder was a mass movement (ramblers) versus a minority (grouse shooting)

Rivers is a mass movement (anglers) versus a minority (paddlers).

Now I'm perfectly happy to share rivers with paddlers, as long as they keep out of my way and/or hold station while I get my line in.
But to be fair, I can't recall ever seeing a paddler on the rivers I've fished.
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Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2018, 12:56:03 pm »
Doesn't matter, there won't be any native fish left anyway before too long. All the eels are long gone from our local ditches & now the salmon and sea trout are disappearing from upland streams...

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Offline darren

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2018, 02:59:00 pm »
I'm sure all those giving there views on this have read the documents mentioned in the OP.

They will therefore be well aware of the statement on page 2 of the access document that says
 "Access on English
waterways has been
disputed for more than 60
years. British Canoeing
believes there is a strong
case to demonstrate
an existing right to
navigation on rivers,
other parties disagree."

So what we have appears to be very similar to CROW.  Two sides who believe opposite things. The only way to sort it will be when someone gets taken to court.  People can believe what they want and post what they want. Doesn't mean anything till a court decides.

British Caneoing seem to be getting there ducks in a row before moving to the next stage.
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Offline Jenny P

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2018, 05:48:27 pm »
Without going onto the rights and wrongs of this, it is worth noting that some years ago (1970's and 1980's I think), this actually ended up with court cases re. the canoeists and anglers in Matlock Bath.  There had been punches thrown, lines allegedly cut by canoeists, and certainly one angler deliberately trod on the deck of a canoe and wrecked it.  The canoeists had a slalom course on the river, one of the few places where a river in Derbyshire was suitable, but it was also a favourite fishing spot and the anglers were bitterly antagonistic.  The anglers tried to prevent canoeists parking in the riverside car parks and it all got really nasty and the dispute regularly made the local press for several years

The East Midlands Sports Council became involved at the time and tried to mediate but without any apparent success.  However it has been quiet for many years now and the issue hasn't made the local papers since pre-2000.  I did wonder if this had anything to do with the setting up of an artificial canoe slalom course at Holme Pierrepont in Nottingham around the same time as the aggro in Matlock seems to have died out - it gave the canoeists an international standard variable slalom course to play on and a very considerable amount of money was spent on developing the facility by the Sports Council.

However, this only satisfies the specialists and keen competition canoeists who have to pay to use the Holme Pierrepont facility.  Maybe people who simply wanted to paddle down the river were put off and don't bother with Matlock any more.

Having canoed down the River Wye a few times with no problems whatsoever, it seems to be one of the few rivers in England which is both suitable for canoeing and must have a right of navigation and is also a fishing river where the fisherman have to co-exist with the canoeists.  It's also the border between England and Wales for a good part of its length where it is suitable for canoeing. It's regularly used for commercial canoeing holidays with standard camp sites along the banks but this only seems to apply downstream from Hay-on-Wye and it is a pretty wide river for most of this lower length so easy to avoid bank-side fishermen.

Some rivers do have a right of navigation but they are the larger rivers, such as the Thames, the Trent and also, of course, places like the Norfolk Broads, where there are also fishermen but they seem to co-exist OK with canoeists.

Whilst I have every sympathy with canoeists, I'd be wary of siding with anyone in this dispute because so much of it is about money spent on fishing rights and the huge income potential for landowners with suitable fishing rivers on their land.  The canoeists are going up against big money here.

Offline thomasr

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2018, 05:59:33 pm »
Maybe some  chance for paddlers is for their sport to be :ang: recognized as being  : Good for the health : The way cycling is promoted and financialy backed .Id be the last of course to suggest bankside   fishing is the sport of the shall we say less energetically minded

Offline Jenny P

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2018, 06:20:22 pm »
Don't forget that canoeing is an Olympic sport so there are possible gold medals to be had - in fact, as I recall, GB has won some in recent Olympics.  That should put the Sports Council on their side!

No gold medals for caving though, which is why some uni. clubs lost their funding a few years ago when the powers that be felt they shouldn't be spending the taxpayers hard earned money on "so-called sports" which are not competitive and have no chance of winning gold medals in international competitions.  Sad really ...

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2018, 06:44:48 pm »
But then caving is a lot cheaper to pursue than most Olympic sports...

Online tony from suffolk

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2018, 07:29:38 pm »
  fishing is the sport of the shall we say less energetically minded
Well, Usain Bolt is a very keen angler, so that's your theory blown out of the water!
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2018, 07:34:18 pm »
Caving is not really a sport. I always find it difficult to classify when talking to others about it and tend to describe it as exploration. We call it a sport because it gets us recognized. It is an activity with a purpose. In it's purest form it is exploration using a variety of techniques. Climbing is a sport. .You can virtually always get to the top without all that effort so there is a skill element in making it hard. Some people like to turn caving into a sport by seeing how fast they can do a trip etc etc and of course techniques such as SRT can be converted into competitive sports but caves should not be regarded as sports grounds. I have the backing of the the OED by the way:
"An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment". Caving is not and shouldn't be compretitive. OK somebody is going to bring up the digging trophy but I haven't seen anyone define digging for caves as sport - yet!

Offline thomasr

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2018, 08:59:24 pm »
not a theory Tony just a little obsevation.  Some unkind people might say   caving is a passtime for the elderly  :lol:

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2018, 09:01:00 am »
There are still access issues relating to Derbyshire rivers generally and the Matlock area. There is no access to Derbyshire rivers except for the Matlock Bath Slalom course and the section of the Trent that is classified as navigable. Some canoeists disregard the current situation, even when it is stated on their own websites (or was last time I looked). I will not comment further as this is very much an active issue but will only add that I hope it will be the responsible canoeist who succeed and not the other type mentioned here. It is unfortunate that, as with most things, they all get "tarred with the same brush" though.
The Slalom course near Nottingham bypasses Holme Sluice and ironically canoeists might have to thank an angler, at least in part, for that development. Holme Sluice has a fish pass but this was kept closed to prevent it being blocked by debris. An angler in the !970s raised the issue of the then Severn Trent Water Authority acting illegally in preventing the passage of migratory fish. He might even have threatened court action at the time. When the Slalom course was opened Severn Trent offered a prize for the first photograph of a Salmon passing through what was also a new fish pass.
I suppose that if we are talking about competition at international level we should mention England's performances in angling at World Championship level, and in several different angling disciplines.
I like the definition of a sport, which opens up more possibilities in other fields, some even literally when I think of agriculture based competitions. 

Offline darren

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2018, 09:15:32 am »
I'm sure all those giving there views on this have read the documents mentioned in the OP.

They will therefore be well aware of the statement on page 2 of the access document that says
 "Access on English
waterways has been
disputed for more than 60
years. British Canoeing
believes there is a strong
case to demonstrate
an existing right to
navigation on rivers,
other parties disagree."

So what we have appears to be very similar to CROW.  Two sides who believe opposite things. The only way to sort it will be when someone gets taken to court.  People can believe what they want and post what they want. Doesn't mean anything till a court decides.

British Caneoing seem to be getting there ducks in a row before moving to the next stage.


I think Tripod probably falls into the "other parties disagree" category.
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Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2018, 09:16:15 am »
Holme pierrepont has lost a lot of it's paddlers to the Lee valley Olympic course & the water quality is still much more suspect (Trent trots being a regular complaint), but we also have world class slalom & sprint paddlers.

Mike

Offline grahams

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2018, 09:19:51 am »
Anglers pay serious money for fishing rights.

And so they should. Anglers take fish out of the river, harm the fish stock and cause serious amounts of pollution that is a danger to wildlife - lost hooks, floats and lead weights. Canoeists cause no pollution and do no harm.

Coarse anglers catch and release. Most use barbless hooks and rigs that prevent fish towing gear around in case of line breakage.  Incidents of pollution are often notified first by anglers, and there are many more anglers than paddlers.
Lead shot (except microshot) has been banned for decades, so I'm not sure where the 'serious amounts of pollution' come from.  Don't confuse commercial stillwaters with the sort of places paddlers will be interested in.
Anglers also pay for rod licenses, the money from which goes to waterway management.

Get your facts right, please.

When I go down to my local river I see trees festooned with broken line, hooks, floats and weights. No doubt the situation is just as bad below water. I also see canoeists quietly enjoying themselves and doing no harm. Given the harm done to wildlife which is caused by angling, I little live and let live might be in order.
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Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2018, 02:31:17 pm »

When I go down to my local river I see trees festooned with broken line, hooks, floats and weights. No doubt the situation is just as bad below water. I also see canoeists quietly enjoying themselves and doing no harm. Given the harm done to wildlife which is caused by angling, I little live and let live might be in order.

Whether the situation underwater is the same as above water will depend on the 'snagginess' of the river bed. The two aren't related.

I agree that a bit of 'live and let live' is in order: I don't think paddlers are a major problem on most rivers.

I simply think it's a good idea to *understand* the details of the hobby/sport you criticise.
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Offline Ed

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2018, 02:40:52 pm »
I like fishing from my canoe....... :spank:

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2018, 02:46:33 pm »
I like fishing from my canoe....... :spank:
I don't know why you're beating yourself up about it, a lot of people do - especially sea anglers  ;)

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2018, 03:14:36 pm »
As for "others disagree" I sort of fall into both camps, having enjoyed being in, on and alongside rivers for all of my life. I can see where conflict arises and how very easily it does. Maybe I have some idea how matters might be eased, if possibly not fully resolved. I have no time for inconsiderate, discourteous or dishonest people or any who think they can shout and bully their way to getting what they want.
From the posts here it is clear that there is a huge amount of ignorance and misunderstanding between participants of the sports of angling and canoeing. It also looks as though no attempt has been made or is being made to bridge this knowledge gap, claims and accusations taking priority over gaining understanding.
Some very interesting information here; "Trent trots" is worrying when we are assured of good water quality. Not all that long ago the Trent was said to be too clean to sustain a reasonable head of fish - which of course was total nonsense.
Another thought - there are closed seasons for fishing and an angling club in my area bans wading during the spawning times for fish, with published lists of when these are for different species. There are precautions to take to prevent the spread of diseases between waters. Would canoeists observe similar limitations?
A part of what makes the "bottom line" and it has to be more complicated than this, is that it is not possible for everyone to do what they want in the same limited space at the same time.     

Offline mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2018, 04:34:56 pm »
British canoeing have published advice to avoid spawning areas & clean kit between rivers for several years:
https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/go-canoeing/access-and-environment/environment-good-practice

Mike

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2018, 10:06:51 am »
Thanks for pointing that out Mikem - it is very much a step in the right direction. With regard to cleaning/disinfecting kit it is worth remembering that the population of White Clawed Crayfish in the River Manifold was wiped out by Crayfish Plague, without Signal Crayfish, which carry this disease, being present. It is believed that transmission was by way of angler's wet kit or swimmers/paddlers (the ones on foot, not in boats!) clothing.
By chance, yesterday, I was reading an article published last year regarding the situation in Scotland. This article was mainly concerned with wild camping and the mess, including abandoned cheap tents, left for others to clear up. There was also mention of provision - huts and seats, paid for and put in place for one group being used as if they were public property. A quote appeared in the article, which also appears in the Scottish legislation, "respect for the interests of other people". That really has to be the "bottom line" and there will be lot of work ahead to achieve this.