Author Topic: The paddlers have it  (Read 3458 times)

Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2018, 08:26:56 pm »
True.

However, that's not 'serious amounts of pollution'.... :lol:
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Offline estelle

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2018, 08:48:31 pm »
I have dived for many years at a site near Torquay, on the coast, called Hope's Nose. This is very popular with anglers. Few, if any, give any thought to what their lost lines weights kit etc is doing underwater. I finally got a clean up team going a couple of years ago and we have pulled up over a hundred kilos of lead so far and probably a similar weight in fishing line which is non biodegradable. It traps seabirds and crustacea. So in my book anglers need to think a bit about how they go about their activities (a lot leave their disused bait bags etc all over beaches as well as anybody who has done a beach clean up will confirm).
As a regular sea diver, the fishing industry needs to sort itself... The amount of crap left in the sea by these people from plastic crates, ropes, net, line, weights, hooks, etc. seems to be the greatest level of crap around our wrecks and a hell of a lot washed up on coastlands. Plus things like the damage from scallop dredging....
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Online SamT

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2018, 09:21:58 pm »
Seems all the contentious caving topics have gone quiet so you lot have found somebody elses argument to get your knickers in a twist over.


Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2018, 10:08:21 pm »
Absolutely :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2018, 10:56:03 am »
Yes, we certainly have found something to "get our knickers in a twist about" though it has some serious relevance to caving and wider issues regarding the use and enjoyment of the countryside generally. Some serious misunderstandings of what others do and do not do showing here and I wonder how they can be resolved?
The canoeists are in a weak position when it comes to negotiation as they wish to change the law of the land and also find themselves in opposition to those with legitimate rights to use what they are seeking. Angling organisations pay a lot of money to buy or rent fishing rights and land. The individual angler pays for his/her Environment Agency license and a further sum to the angling organisation he/she belongs to or land/fishery owner. With these it is likely that the individual will have paid at the very least a three-figure sum just to be able to stand on the water's edge. The organisations and the individuals are unlikely to be favourably disposed to anyone who wishes to use what they have paid for free and further, where this happens, fails to take a responsible approach to this issue. This is reality and as for legislation it is already in place but does not suit everyone. As for the discussion on this forum it was basically civilised and informative and it is regrettable that one individual did not join it except to throw insults.   

Online mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2018, 11:03:31 am »
Exactly the same argument was used for grouse moors before the Kinder trespass....

Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2018, 12:38:22 pm »
Exactly the same argument was used for grouse moors before the Kinder trespass....

But in reverse.

Kinder was a mass movement (ramblers) versus a minority (grouse shooting)

Rivers is a mass movement (anglers) versus a minority (paddlers).

Now I'm perfectly happy to share rivers with paddlers, as long as they keep out of my way and/or hold station while I get my line in.
But to be fair, I can't recall ever seeing a paddler on the rivers I've fished.
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Online mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2018, 12:56:03 pm »
Doesn't matter, there won't be any native fish left anyway before too long. All the eels are long gone from our local ditches & now the salmon and sea trout are disappearing from upland streams...

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Offline darren

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2018, 02:59:00 pm »
I'm sure all those giving there views on this have read the documents mentioned in the OP.

They will therefore be well aware of the statement on page 2 of the access document that says
 "Access on English
waterways has been
disputed for more than 60
years. British Canoeing
believes there is a strong
case to demonstrate
an existing right to
navigation on rivers,
other parties disagree."

So what we have appears to be very similar to CROW.  Two sides who believe opposite things. The only way to sort it will be when someone gets taken to court.  People can believe what they want and post what they want. Doesn't mean anything till a court decides.

British Caneoing seem to be getting there ducks in a row before moving to the next stage.
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Offline Jenny P

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2018, 05:48:27 pm »
Without going onto the rights and wrongs of this, it is worth noting that some years ago (1970's and 1980's I think), this actually ended up with court cases re. the canoeists and anglers in Matlock Bath.  There had been punches thrown, lines allegedly cut by canoeists, and certainly one angler deliberately trod on the deck of a canoe and wrecked it.  The canoeists had a slalom course on the river, one of the few places where a river in Derbyshire was suitable, but it was also a favourite fishing spot and the anglers were bitterly antagonistic.  The anglers tried to prevent canoeists parking in the riverside car parks and it all got really nasty and the dispute regularly made the local press for several years

The East Midlands Sports Council became involved at the time and tried to mediate but without any apparent success.  However it has been quiet for many years now and the issue hasn't made the local papers since pre-2000.  I did wonder if this had anything to do with the setting up of an artificial canoe slalom course at Holme Pierrepont in Nottingham around the same time as the aggro in Matlock seems to have died out - it gave the canoeists an international standard variable slalom course to play on and a very considerable amount of money was spent on developing the facility by the Sports Council.

However, this only satisfies the specialists and keen competition canoeists who have to pay to use the Holme Pierrepont facility.  Maybe people who simply wanted to paddle down the river were put off and don't bother with Matlock any more.

Having canoed down the River Wye a few times with no problems whatsoever, it seems to be one of the few rivers in England which is both suitable for canoeing and must have a right of navigation and is also a fishing river where the fisherman have to co-exist with the canoeists.  It's also the border between England and Wales for a good part of its length where it is suitable for canoeing. It's regularly used for commercial canoeing holidays with standard camp sites along the banks but this only seems to apply downstream from Hay-on-Wye and it is a pretty wide river for most of this lower length so easy to avoid bank-side fishermen.

Some rivers do have a right of navigation but they are the larger rivers, such as the Thames, the Trent and also, of course, places like the Norfolk Broads, where there are also fishermen but they seem to co-exist OK with canoeists.

Whilst I have every sympathy with canoeists, I'd be wary of siding with anyone in this dispute because so much of it is about money spent on fishing rights and the huge income potential for landowners with suitable fishing rivers on their land.  The canoeists are going up against big money here.

Offline thomasr

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #35 on: December 10, 2018, 05:59:33 pm »
Maybe some  chance for paddlers is for their sport to be :ang: recognized as being  : Good for the health : The way cycling is promoted and financialy backed .Id be the last of course to suggest bankside   fishing is the sport of the shall we say less energetically minded

Offline Jenny P

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #36 on: December 10, 2018, 06:20:22 pm »
Don't forget that canoeing is an Olympic sport so there are possible gold medals to be had - in fact, as I recall, GB has won some in recent Olympics.  That should put the Sports Council on their side!

No gold medals for caving though, which is why some uni. clubs lost their funding a few years ago when the powers that be felt they shouldn't be spending the taxpayers hard earned money on "so-called sports" which are not competitive and have no chance of winning gold medals in international competitions.  Sad really ...

Online mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2018, 06:44:48 pm »
But then caving is a lot cheaper to pursue than most Olympic sports...

Offline tony from suffolk

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2018, 07:29:38 pm »
  fishing is the sport of the shall we say less energetically minded
Well, Usain Bolt is a very keen angler, so that's your theory blown out of the water!
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Offline mrodoc

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2018, 07:34:18 pm »
Caving is not really a sport. I always find it difficult to classify when talking to others about it and tend to describe it as exploration. We call it a sport because it gets us recognized. It is an activity with a purpose. In it's purest form it is exploration using a variety of techniques. Climbing is a sport. .You can virtually always get to the top without all that effort so there is a skill element in making it hard. Some people like to turn caving into a sport by seeing how fast they can do a trip etc etc and of course techniques such as SRT can be converted into competitive sports but caves should not be regarded as sports grounds. I have the backing of the the OED by the way:
"An activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment". Caving is not and shouldn't be compretitive. OK somebody is going to bring up the digging trophy but I haven't seen anyone define digging for caves as sport - yet!

Offline thomasr

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2018, 08:59:24 pm »
not a theory Tony just a little obsevation.  Some unkind people might say   caving is a passtime for the elderly  :lol:

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2018, 09:01:00 am »
There are still access issues relating to Derbyshire rivers generally and the Matlock area. There is no access to Derbyshire rivers except for the Matlock Bath Slalom course and the section of the Trent that is classified as navigable. Some canoeists disregard the current situation, even when it is stated on their own websites (or was last time I looked). I will not comment further as this is very much an active issue but will only add that I hope it will be the responsible canoeist who succeed and not the other type mentioned here. It is unfortunate that, as with most things, they all get "tarred with the same brush" though.
The Slalom course near Nottingham bypasses Holme Sluice and ironically canoeists might have to thank an angler, at least in part, for that development. Holme Sluice has a fish pass but this was kept closed to prevent it being blocked by debris. An angler in the !970s raised the issue of the then Severn Trent Water Authority acting illegally in preventing the passage of migratory fish. He might even have threatened court action at the time. When the Slalom course was opened Severn Trent offered a prize for the first photograph of a Salmon passing through what was also a new fish pass.
I suppose that if we are talking about competition at international level we should mention England's performances in angling at World Championship level, and in several different angling disciplines.
I like the definition of a sport, which opens up more possibilities in other fields, some even literally when I think of agriculture based competitions. 

Offline darren

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2018, 09:15:32 am »
I'm sure all those giving there views on this have read the documents mentioned in the OP.

They will therefore be well aware of the statement on page 2 of the access document that says
 "Access on English
waterways has been
disputed for more than 60
years. British Canoeing
believes there is a strong
case to demonstrate
an existing right to
navigation on rivers,
other parties disagree."

So what we have appears to be very similar to CROW.  Two sides who believe opposite things. The only way to sort it will be when someone gets taken to court.  People can believe what they want and post what they want. Doesn't mean anything till a court decides.

British Caneoing seem to be getting there ducks in a row before moving to the next stage.


I think Tripod probably falls into the "other parties disagree" category.
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Online mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2018, 09:16:15 am »
Holme pierrepont has lost a lot of it's paddlers to the Lee valley Olympic course & the water quality is still much more suspect (Trent trots being a regular complaint), but we also have world class slalom & sprint paddlers.

Mike

Offline grahams

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #44 on: December 11, 2018, 09:19:51 am »
Anglers pay serious money for fishing rights.

And so they should. Anglers take fish out of the river, harm the fish stock and cause serious amounts of pollution that is a danger to wildlife - lost hooks, floats and lead weights. Canoeists cause no pollution and do no harm.

Coarse anglers catch and release. Most use barbless hooks and rigs that prevent fish towing gear around in case of line breakage.  Incidents of pollution are often notified first by anglers, and there are many more anglers than paddlers.
Lead shot (except microshot) has been banned for decades, so I'm not sure where the 'serious amounts of pollution' come from.  Don't confuse commercial stillwaters with the sort of places paddlers will be interested in.
Anglers also pay for rod licenses, the money from which goes to waterway management.

Get your facts right, please.

When I go down to my local river I see trees festooned with broken line, hooks, floats and weights. No doubt the situation is just as bad below water. I also see canoeists quietly enjoying themselves and doing no harm. Given the harm done to wildlife which is caused by angling, I little live and let live might be in order.
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Offline droid

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2018, 02:31:17 pm »

When I go down to my local river I see trees festooned with broken line, hooks, floats and weights. No doubt the situation is just as bad below water. I also see canoeists quietly enjoying themselves and doing no harm. Given the harm done to wildlife which is caused by angling, I little live and let live might be in order.

Whether the situation underwater is the same as above water will depend on the 'snagginess' of the river bed. The two aren't related.

I agree that a bit of 'live and let live' is in order: I don't think paddlers are a major problem on most rivers.

I simply think it's a good idea to *understand* the details of the hobby/sport you criticise.
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Offline Ed

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2018, 02:40:52 pm »
I like fishing from my canoe....... :spank:

Online mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2018, 02:46:33 pm »
I like fishing from my canoe....... :spank:
I don't know why you're beating yourself up about it, a lot of people do - especially sea anglers  ;)

Offline Tripod

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2018, 03:14:36 pm »
As for "others disagree" I sort of fall into both camps, having enjoyed being in, on and alongside rivers for all of my life. I can see where conflict arises and how very easily it does. Maybe I have some idea how matters might be eased, if possibly not fully resolved. I have no time for inconsiderate, discourteous or dishonest people or any who think they can shout and bully their way to getting what they want.
From the posts here it is clear that there is a huge amount of ignorance and misunderstanding between participants of the sports of angling and canoeing. It also looks as though no attempt has been made or is being made to bridge this knowledge gap, claims and accusations taking priority over gaining understanding.
Some very interesting information here; "Trent trots" is worrying when we are assured of good water quality. Not all that long ago the Trent was said to be too clean to sustain a reasonable head of fish - which of course was total nonsense.
Another thought - there are closed seasons for fishing and an angling club in my area bans wading during the spawning times for fish, with published lists of when these are for different species. There are precautions to take to prevent the spread of diseases between waters. Would canoeists observe similar limitations?
A part of what makes the "bottom line" and it has to be more complicated than this, is that it is not possible for everyone to do what they want in the same limited space at the same time.     

Online mikem

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Re: The paddlers have it
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2018, 04:34:56 pm »
British canoeing have published advice to avoid spawning areas & clean kit between rivers for several years:
https://www.britishcanoeing.org.uk/go-canoeing/access-and-environment/environment-good-practice

Mike